The Amazon Economy isn’t creating as many jobs as it destroys

[Brownstone]

It's important to pay attention to the fact that I never used the word blame.

Distinction without a difference. Contributes insinuates causality.
Amazon pays it's workers more than double the minimum wage, how are they responsible for wages not increasing? National & student debt? Amazon contributes to this by forcing the American government to spend more than they bring in?
Rent prices? Amazon contributes to rent prices rising nationally? In Seattle?

I hate Amazon as much as the next guy, but come on.

 

[ALNotSure]

And jobs grew in other sectors. If amazon didn’t do this it would have changed anyway. People just don’t shop at stores like they used to,

 

[boris]

Distinction without a difference. Contributes insinuates causality.
Amazon pays it's workers more than double the minimum wage, how are they responsible for wages not increasing? National & student debt? Amazon contributes to this by forcing the American government to spend more than they bring in?
Rent prices? Amazon contributes to rent prices rising nationally? In Seattle?

I hate Amazon as much as the next guy, but come on.

Contributes means that it helps to cause, not that it is the cause. I mentioned two things: they don't pay their fair share of taxes and they pay low wages.

The current federal minimum wage is pathetically low. Earning $15/hr still wouldn't be enough to live where I live. Amazon, like many corporations, pays insanely low tax rates, which means fewer dollars that can be spent towards actually improving the country.

They are absolutely part of and contribute to a far greater issue in this country.

 

[Brownstone]

They are absolutely part of and contribute to a far greater issue in this country.

How do they 'help' to cause those things?

 

[boris]

How do they 'help' to cause those things?

I mean I literally just said they pay low wages and they don't pay their fair share of taxes. Like many large corporations, they use their power and influence to shape the country.

 

[Brownstone]

Contributes means that it helps to cause, not that it is the cause. I mentioned two things: they don't pay their fair share of taxes and they pay low wages.

The current federal minimum wage is pathetically low. Earning $15/hr still wouldn't be enough to live where I live. Amazon, like many corporations, pays insanely low tax rates, which means fewer dollars that can be spent towards actually improving the country.

They are absolutely part of and contribute to a far greater issue in this country.

What is their fair share? Because according to tax law they do. Incentives for companies to invest in their people and research exist for good reason.

Pay low wages? relative to whom? Amazon has one of the highest pay per employee in the world. This including their "low paid" workers.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Distinction without a difference. Contributes insinuates causality.
Amazon pays it's workers more than double the minimum wage, how are they responsible for wages not increasing? National & student debt? Amazon contributes to this by forcing the American government to spend more than they bring in?
Rent prices? Amazon contributes to rent prices rising nationally? In Seattle?

I hate Amazon as much as the next guy, but come on.

-The minimum wage is artificially low because of Republican buffoonery. The fact they pay their workers double the minimum wage means little to nothing. It is well documented the horrible conditions workers face in distribution centers. Given the labor-intensive nature of those distribution centers and the injury rates, those workers are getting ****ed. So spare us this insinuation that Amazon is a friend to the American worker.

-They are responsible for wages not increasing because of the pressure they put on supply chains because of their massive market share; they stomp down inflation because they have so much market power. Small businesses can't flourish with Amazon around because Amazon will either use their monopolistic power to undercut prices in the short term to drive companies out of business. If they sell on the Amazon marketplace, Amazon contacts metrics on their customers and potential customers, find info on their suppliers, makes similar products at a larger scale then uses their algorithms to place their products front and center for customers.

Antitrust regulation should stop the first behavior, but it does not. Newer antitrust law is needed to stop the second one.

-Amazon causes housing issues in metropolitan because they and their workers bid up the price of housing. It is simple supply and demand. Amazon and its workers increase the demand for housing, supply can't meet the demand, it gets worse and worse, and people get priced out and end up homeless.

-Amazon continuously lobbies local, state, and federal elected offices, (especially local) to not pass new needed taxes on them. Even when the taxes are to address the housing crisis, they help create, even when other tech firms agree to the taxes. So Amazon is not just on the sidelines; they actively try to restrain tax revenues to help people affected by them.

If someone is not aware of the adverse effects Amazon has on the economy, then they are willfully ignorant because stories come out about them all the time.

-Not even mention how their delivery guarantees are stressing out already lousy infrastructure.

Amazon can exist but not in its current form because they are not an innocent economic or political actor.

 

[Brownstone]

Amazon is not the only company that increases their local housing prices though.... Literally every city with a high concentration of HQ's has this issue. Hardly an Amazon phenomenon.

Additionally, Small business growth is up, this contradicts your claim that it is squeezing small businesses like you claim.

Amazon in the end will be it's own undoing, conquering all markets and industries is not a real strategy.

Agree on the political influence and antitrust pieces. I just have no tolerance for those that claim Amazon is to blame for all of our countries ills.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Amazon is not the only company that increases their local housing prices though.... Literally every city with a high concentration of HQ's has this issue. Hardly an Amazon phenomenon.

Additionally, Small business growth is up, this contradicts your claim that it is squeezing small businesses like you claim.

Amazon in the end will be it's own undoing, conquering all markets and industries is not a real strategy.

Agree on the political influence and antitrust pieces. I just have no tolerance for those that claim Amazon is to blame for all of our countries ills.

-A whataboutism to start things, saying other companies have bad effects doesn't excuse Amazon. Yes there are other bad actors. They too should be properly taxed, regulated, or broken up given the situation. No one is letting everyone else off the hook.

-Small business growth being up doesn't excuse Amazon's actions. On aggregate it is up. It would probably be higher if not for Amazon's bad behavior. It is like saying Trump's trade war is not hurting the economy because it grew at over 2%. That is not how macro works.

Plus, contraction of market power is the real issue. Amazon routinely attacks small to midsize firms that enter the market. That is dangerous for the long term.

We need to get away at looking at a few top line numbers are declaring everything ok, that makes us miss how your macroeconomy is being distorted.

Not one is saying they are to blame for all the countries ills. That is just a strawman you created to act like everyone else is being unreasonable for pointing out the obvious bad behavior.

 

[boris]

What is their fair share? Because according to tax law they do. Incentives for companies to invest in their people and research exist for good reason.

Pay low wages? relative to whom? Amazon has one of the highest pay per employee in the world. This including their "low paid" workers.

Your first part isn't a simple discussion.

Amazon pays really well for software engineer positions. They pay comically low for their warehouse positions, and they treat these people like garbage.

 

[finessence]

Misleading thread title.

The article only mentions brick and mortar retail jobs being in decline, this does not take into account the many industries influenced by Amazon. I am not an Amazon apologist btw, I love how they ended up in NY anyway without the tax breaks and hate how they treat all their workers (yes, even the high paid ones)

Let me paint a picture of my trip to Best Buy today. I walk in, it's empty, there are products everywhere. I get to the front desk and the lady couldn't be more upset to have to help me. That is why Brick and Mortar retail hiring is down, it's down and never coming back up, and thank god for that.

EXACTLY! Customer service is at an all-time low, EVERYWHERE! Why waste my breath cursing someone out? A waste of time.

Again, society/America brought this upon themselves. Deal with it

 

[finessence]

Online shopping actually will help to. Demolish some of these unneeded, dilapidated, rundown shopping plazas or mall, and build more affordable homes or apartments.

 

[Bert.]

I feel like I’m the only person who never uses amazon.

over the years I’ve maybe ordered 3 times.. ever

 

[joe billionaire]

a lot of amazon products are fake, people complain about fake makeup, fake sd cards, fake brand name accessories...

i hate that everyone thinks they can be jeff bezos, i hear this often

 

[Present]

Trace it back to Greed.

Greed, or avarice, is an inordinate or insatiable longing for material gain, be it food, money, status, or power. As a secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs.

Humans have always felt the desire to gain something while risking nothing.

Companies like Amazon meet this desire.

People dont have to leave thier homes, interact with the public in any way, no lines, no inconvienence, best prices, notifications of stock levels, price tracking, free shipping, free returns, same day or next day arrivals to your door step, instant gratification, retail therapy, etc, etc, then have the nerve to expect all these things not to cost us...like all this for free, at the tips of your fingers.

Word?

Funny thing is some people are either dishonest or foolish enough to expect anything good to come from Greed. I mean its Ok to shop at Amazon but to expect there to be no down sides is either foolish or dishonest.

Like people who decided slavery was cool because - free labor!

Nothing is free.

Also -

The term "job creator" is a complete misnomer.

People go into business to make money. Period.

Sidenote:

How many of us, with closets full of shoes, from the floor to the ceiling, ever think of the workers / laborers who made them over in China or Vietnam, while we complain about glue stains or leather vs durabuck, after frantickly refreshing our browsers, hoping not to lose out to reseller bots, on the next expensive and unnecessary release of something that is a poor subsitite for the childhood memories we never had?

This is us.

Not Amazon.

 

[rexmakesbeats]

Because technology improves and gets more efficient over time. Combined with capitalism its on steroids. As a humans we should all be happy about this. It's no longer needed for us to work and exert force like previous generations.

On the downside as a unit of labor in a capitalistic system, it means we are obselete. We truly do not understand a life outside of the labor markets and we need to adjust.

exactly, we need to learn new skills to adapt to the evolving labor market of which technology has paved the way for. as all the mundane jobs are becoming automated, and the majority of the work force is screwed if they don't pick up useful skills/training. unless the economy somehow can develop a system where no one really needs to work anymore..

 

[Xennial]

You, me and Ninja I guess. I've bought maybe 5 items total in my amazon acct history and most of those were from years ago before I found out what kind of company they were, can't support them

I feel like I’m the only person who never uses amazon.

over the years I’ve maybe ordered 3 times.. ever

 

[getback]

I heard this story before

 

[mplsdunk]

Amazon employees should organize.

the trash wages and working conditions would be a thing of the past.

 

[shogun]

Online shopping actually will help to. Demolish some of these unneeded, dilapidated, rundown shopping plazas or mall, and build more affordable homes or apartments.

Some of the small apartments they build in vacant malls are kinda cool.

 

[coldcrush]

Misleading thread title.

The article only mentions brick and mortar retail jobs being in decline, this does not take into account the many industries influenced by Amazon. I am not an Amazon apologist btw, I love how they ended up in NY anyway without the tax breaks and hate how they treat all their workers (yes, even the high paid ones)

Let me paint a picture of my trip to Best Buy today. I walk in, it's empty, there are products everywhere. I get to the front desk and the lady couldn't be more upset to have to help me. That is why Brick and Mortar retail hiring is down, it's down and never coming back up, and thank god for that.

Terrible customer service is the norm for almost everywhere I go... If B&M started using a 100% or near commission based pay structure the sales associates at these stores would get on their A game real quick. For most items other than groceries and toiletries the internet is my first choice. I'm tired of being met with an attitude when I'm trying to shop.

 

[coldcrush]

a lot of amazon products are fake, people complain about fake makeup, fake sd cards, fake brand name accessories...

i hate that everyone thinks they can be jeff bezos, i hear this often

Yo I bought some CDs from Amazon, not an official seller through Amazon, but directly through Amazon and they sent me bootleg CDRs...

 

[Brownstone]

-A whataboutism to start things, saying other companies have bad effects doesn't excuse Amazon. Yes there are other bad actors. They too should be properly taxed, regulated, or broken up given the situation. No one is letting everyone else off the hook.

-Small business growth being up doesn't excuse Amazon's actions. On aggregate it is up. It would probably be higher if not for Amazon's bad behavior. It is like saying Trump's trade war is not hurting the economy because it grew at over 2%. That is not how macro works.

Plus, contraction of market power is the real issue. Amazon routinely attacks small to midsize firms that enter the market. That is dangerous for the long term.

We need to get away at looking at a few top line numbers are declaring everything ok, that makes us miss how your macroeconomy is being distorted.

Not one is saying they are to blame for all the countries ills. That is just a strawman you created to act like everyone else is being unreasonable for pointing out the obvious bad behavior.

This isn't whataboutism though, I am simply stating that Amazon (which apparently pays very low wages) is to blame for both wage stagnation AND rent increases? Additionally, Amazon is enjoying what energy corporations have enjoyed for years (low to negative tax rates) This is not the story of most fortune 500 companies as most Large companies pay anywhere from 20-30% of EBIT, before Trumps tax changes this could be higher. Raising rents have more to do with citizen preferences and changing living habits than companies like Amazon.

As far as Small Business growth, by every metric SB is strong, by saying you think it may be higher if not for Amazon is not akin to Trump's trade war because there is evidence that the trade war is impeding growth and there are several metrics that support this. Where are yours stating that Amazon hinders Small Business? The one business that Amazon hurts is Fed Ex- which is to say, good riddance to them. Adapt or die.

Even Amazon's direct competitors - Best Buy, Target, Walmart, are all seeing historic growth. They learned to adapt and have thrived due to better business models and service. Amazon is even getting into Brick and Mortar itself, because as I mentioned they really have no strategy.........

Strawman? Dude mentioned everything under the sun:

Apparently Amazon is responsible for: rising rent prices, low wages, National debt AND student debt. I apologize if this was conflated for all of our problems, but lets get serious here.....

 

[vood99]

a lot of amazon products are fake, people complain about fake makeup, fake sd cards, fake brand name accessories...

i hate that everyone thinks they can be jeff bezos, i hear this often

Yo I bought some CDs from Amazon, not an official seller through Amazon, but directly through Amazon and they sent me bootleg CDRs...

A lot of the Alibaba, Aliexpress sellers are on Amazon. Pictures show one thing and you get some junk shipped straight from China. You have to be extremely careful with them.

Can't speak for Amazon USA, but Amazon Canada in the past 5 years has become really expensive. They got people hooked onto their same day delivery PRIME model and these same cats won't even shop around for a deal.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

-The minimum wage is artificially low because of Republican buffoonery. The fact they pay their workers double the minimum wage means little to nothing. It is well documented the horrible conditions workers face in distribution centers. Given the labor-intensive nature of those distribution centers and the injury rates, those workers are getting ****ed. So spare us this insinuation that Amazon is a friend to the American worker.

-They are responsible for wages not increasing because of the pressure they put on supply chains because of their massive market share; they stomp down inflation because they have so much market power. Small businesses can't flourish with Amazon around because Amazon will either use their monopolistic power to undercut prices in the short term to drive companies out of business. If they sell on the Amazon marketplace, Amazon contacts metrics on their customers and potential customers, find info on their suppliers, makes similar products at a larger scale then uses their algorithms to place their products front and center for customers.

Antitrust regulation should stop the first behavior, but it does not. Newer antitrust law is needed to stop the second one.

-Amazon causes housing issues in metropolitan because they and their workers bid up the price of housing. It is simple supply and demand. Amazon and its workers increase the demand for housing, supply can't meet the demand, it gets worse and worse, and people get priced out and end up homeless.

-Amazon continuously lobbies local, state, and federal elected offices, (especially local) to not pass new needed taxes on them. Even when the taxes are to address the housing crisis, they help create, even when other tech firms agree to the taxes. So Amazon is not just on the sidelines; they actively try to restrain tax revenues to help people affected by them.

If someone is not aware of the adverse effects Amazon has on the economy, then they are willfully ignorant because stories come out about them all the time.

-Not even mention how their delivery guarantees are stressing out already lousy infrastructure.

Amazon can exist but not in its current form because they are not an innocent economic or political actor.

I agree with everything you’re saying, but at the end of the day, whose fault is it? Their’s for playing the game or the government’s for allowing this to happen? I can’t blame Amazon for doing what they’re allowed to get away with. Beating the system is human nature. The system needs to be redeveloped.