The Amazon Economy isn’t creating as many jobs as it destroys

[Xennial]

People tend to have a different energy towards individuals that beat the system especially individuals of color tho

I agree with everything you’re saying, but at the end of the day, whose fault is it? Their’s for playing the game or the government’s for allowing this to happen? I can’t blame Amazon for doing what they’re allowed to get away with. Beating the system is human nature. The system needs to be redeveloped.

 

[alchemist iq]

I got sold a fake apple MacBook charger. Gave the seller a 2 Star and wrote a review, that the item was a fake. Seller reached out to me to refund my money and I can keep those charger if I deleted my negative review on his account.

Also brought a battery for a smartphone I had, that was used and didn't worked, even though it was listed as brand new.

I'm pretty sure Amazon have gone through great lengths to cover up bad experiences with bad actors on their platforms.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I agree with everything you’re saying, but at the end of the day, whose fault is it? Their’s for playing the game or the government’s for allowing this to happen? I can’t blame Amazon for doing what they’re allowed to get away with. Beating the system is human nature. The system needs to be redeveloped.

Amazon can be held to account for their actions just like anyone these. Past regulators failings doesn't excuse Amazon's unethical actions. They could still be very well off if they acted better.

They were allowed to rent seek without proper checks, fine, but that does not excuse their actions.

 

[boris]

I agree with everything you’re saying, but at the end of the day, whose fault is it? Their’s for playing the game or the government’s for allowing this to happen? I can’t blame Amazon for doing what they’re allowed to get away with. Beating the system is human nature. The system needs to be redeveloped.

It's a combination. I agree that the system allows them to do it, and that it needs to be fixed. However, companies like Amazon have so much power and wealth that they can influence and control how the system works.

 

[whatscomplex]

I remember I learned in one of my classes how Walmart bullies the hell out of small businesses in the area. They’ll undercut whatever the local businesses are selling then raise it back up after the businesses have to close down from lack of sales. They have better connects so they have more flexibility, and sometimes they’ll straight up take a loss on a product if they need to.

Amazon is even worse because I’m guessing it hires significantly less than Walmart and closes businesses down nation wide without having to move into an area.

 

[RustyShackleford]

This isn't whataboutism though, I am simply stating that Amazon (which apparently pays very low wages) is to blame for both wage stagnation AND rent increases? Additionally, Amazon is enjoying what energy corporations have enjoyed for years (low to negative tax rates) This is not the story of most fortune 500 companies as most Large companies pay anywhere from 20-30% of EBIT, before Trumps tax changes this could be higher. Raising rents have more to do with citizen preferences and changing living habits than companies like Amazon.

As far as Small Business growth, by every metric SB is strong, by saying you think it may be higher if not for Amazon is not akin to Trump's trade war because there is evidence that the trade war is impeding growth and there are several metrics that support this. Where are yours stating that Amazon hinders Small Business? The one business that Amazon hurts is Fed Ex- which is to say, good riddance to them. Adapt or die.

Even Amazon's direct competitors - Best Buy, Target, Walmart, are all seeing historic growth. They learned to adapt and have thrived due to better business models and service. Amazon is even getting into Brick and Mortar itself, because as I mentioned they really have no strategy.........

Strawman? Dude mentioned everything under the sun:

Apparently Amazon is responsible for: rising rent prices, low wages, National debt AND student debt. I apologize if this was conflated for all of our problems, but lets get serious here.....

Good grief.

Dude this thread was made about Amazon, so naturally people up brought up **** Amazon does. That is no way an argument that they are the sole bad actor. It is a whataboustism if your response to people pointing out the bad is “other people do it too”. It is like a teacher telling a disruptive kid to stop talking, and your response is “well those other kids are talking too”. That is in no way a cogent counterpoint to the argument being made.

You continuously bringing up other bad actors is a weak deflection that does not in any way absolve Amazon of the dirt they do. Yes they are more bad actors, and they must be dealt with too. There.

First off let me say that the picture with small business are not near as nice as you paint. We are in a time of economic expansion, so yes the amount small business contribute to the GDP is growing. But their share of the economy has decreased substantially since the late 90s.

https://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/institute/small-business-economic.htm

https://s3.amazonaws.com/advocacy-p.../12/21060437/Small-Business-GDP-1998-2014.pdf

Metrics with small business track the US economy’s business cycle. So, you saying things are doing great look at the small business numbers is like someone saying things are splendid in the labor market because unemployment numbers are low. It ignores structural issues. Than those structural issues are what I am talking about. Market concentration and monopolistic power are the concerns, not just top line growth numbers. Amazon can use their market power to pressure supplier to keep their cost lower, which hurts wage inflation. They engage in price wars that drive firms out of business or sell to Amazon. Diapers.com is a famous example of them doing this. The run the market place smaller firms sell in, and they have access to data they can used to undercut them in the future.

Your entire argument is based on not considerig the deeper economics at play. You see a top line number and ignore what is happening under the hood with the macro economy.

Regulation and antitrust have always been part of our economic machine. So, if Amazon can’t deal with them, why don’t you tell them to adapt or die. Don’t try to stop local taxes, adapt or die. Don’t try to lobby for tax cuts, adapt or die. Stop complaining about antitrust laws being applied to your business, adapt or die. People always love to peddle this pseudo free market talking point but cry wolf when regulators want to stop the rent seeking. And that is main issue with Amazon, their rent seeking behavior that goes unchecked and is often unethical.

Housing cost, especially the large spikes we see in urban areas is caused by supply shortages. Yes more people may want to live in an area but there is not enough housing stock to accommodate current demand, and the new demand things like a Amazon HQ brings. When demand out paces supply, prices rise. This issue is discussed at length with housing economist and wonks. This is what cause the YIMBY movement to spring up. Most experts agree with need zoning reform to increase density/supply, which puts down pressure on market prices. If you doubt Amazon contributes to this then please go research want is happening in Seattle, and all the **** they have done there.

Dude is saying Amazon effects those things, not that they are solely responsible. You just pearl clutched and acted like he did and went on rants based on that false assumption

He clearly didn’t put it all on them…..

. B boris literally said “Amazon not paying their fair share of taxes and paying low wages contributes to what you just mentioned” . And he didn’t mention any of that **** directly, someone else did in a sarcastic post to which Boris gave that response.

Yes, you are arguing against a strawman because he didn't just flippantly put all the blame on Amazon. You just think he did.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I remember I learned in one of my classes how Walmart bullies the hell out of small businesses in the area. They’ll undercut whatever the local businesses are selling then raise it back up after the businesses have to close down from lack of sales. They have better connects so they have more flexibility, and sometimes they’ll straight up take a loss on a product if they need to.

Amazon is even worse because I’m guessing it hires significantly less than Walmart and closes businesses down nation wide without having to move into an area.

Amazon is as bad as Walmart but since their destructive behavior is hidden it gets less blowback.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Amazon could exist. I just think it would be better as 5-6 smaller companies than it it's current state.

 

[Xennial]

Same should happen to FB, Google, Apple, maybe Disney

Amazon could exist. I just think it would be better as 5-6 smaller companies than it it's current state.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think every large tech firm should be looked at as individual case. Some need to be broken up, others regulated much more strictly.

 

[Brownstone]

Regulation is fine, and free market is not perfect, I am no Libertarian. I just think the answer is not as black and white as you claim. We could impose different taxation laws that drive different behaviors but how is it Amazon's priority to pay more than they are obligated. Seattle could also find their balls and make them pony up, individuals that can't afford rent can also move?

So I assume you agree that Amazon has nothing to do with our national debt and student debt issues, or do they "contribute" ? ( a vacuous statement easily escaped by claiming it has some effect)

Define share of the economy? As stated in your first link: SB currently account for 99% of all businesses and account for 33% of all exports, a more than 4% increase from 2006. Thanks for the second link but I am not sifting through a 75 page document..The fact is, data supports the trend that SB is growing ALONG with businesses such as Amazon. You continue to contribute anecdotal paragraphs about how economics works. Where is the DATA to support your statement that Amazon is growing at the expense of small businesses.

You are quick to defend others while misquoting me, where did I state that he said they are solely responsible? I have continued to agree that Amazon is not a good actor., and SHOULD be regulated, I also don't think they should own one of the marquee papers in the lexicon of American journalism.

I am also under the belief that we are under the influence of global markets, and economics has in a way become essential to national security, especially in todays trade climates. Do we really want to over reach on regulating certain IP's and industries while other countries let their prized companies grow at unprecedented rates? I am not making a statement here, just asking.

Why are there housing shortages? Because folks don't want to live in the burbs anymore, and while Amazon (contributes) to higher rent prices in Seattle just as much as any Doctors office or law office there, they shouldn't be called to account for cities across the country being shorted infrastructure funding due to these cities previously being inhabited by lower income bases It's attacking high income earners, not the root of the issue, government.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Define share of the economy? As stated in your first link: SB currently account for 99% of all businesses and account for 33% of all exports, a more than 4% increase from 2006. Thanks for the second link but I am not sifting through a 75 page document..The fact is, data supports the trend that SB is growing ALONG with businesses such as Amazon. You continue to contribute anecdotal paragraphs about how economics works. Where is the DATA to support your statement that Amazon is growing at the expense of small businesses.

You are quick to defend others while misquoting me, where did I state that he said they are solely responsible? I have continued to agree that Amazon is not a good actor., and SHOULD be regulated, I also don't think they should own one fo the marquee papers in the lexicon of American journalism.

I am also under the belief that we are under the influence of global markets, and economics has transformed into national security. Do we really want to over reach on regulating certain IP's and industries while other countries let their prized companies grow at unprecedented rates?

Why are there housing shortages? Because folks don't want to live in the burbs anymore, and while Amazon (contributes) to higher rent prices in Seattle as much as any Doctors office or law office there, they shouldn't be called to account for cities across the country being shorted infrastructure funding due to these cities previously being inhabited by lower income bases It's attacking high income earners, not the root of the issue, government.

-Share of the economy is literally that, what percentage of the economic activity is attributed by certain type of firms. GDP overall is growing, yes, but the makeup of the economy is changing. More of the GDP is being generated by larger firms. The economy is becoming more concentrated.

So, the numbers are showing that the pie is growing, the size of the slice for small business is increasing, but the share of the pie is decreasing. And that “growth” you see is also driven by the same thing drives all GDP growth, population growth. There are more customers out there to sell to, so they make more. But larger firms are eating into them. Ignoring this fact is exactly the bait and switch supply siders use to cover for the failings of their policies.

Not to be condescending but your interruption of the available data as a major hole in it. All you are saying is because we are in an economic expansion, GDP numbers that always go up are going up, so there is nothing bad going on under the hood. Hell you are demanding data that shows Amazon directly I hurting small businesses all the while you don't have any data that show they had no impact. The data you cite doesn't say you you think it says.

I will concede that Amazon has probably had a positive effect too on small businesses because of AWS and their merchant services. My beef with them is over their negative actions

But your argument again is that the specific negative actions takes doesn't hurt the small business effected because if you look at metrics that aggregate the entire macro economy, they don't show negative growth since Amazon started. That ignores the clear market concentration I showed, assumes I am saying only Amazon is doing anything to those businesses, and ignores other economic factors. So you can talk about DATA all you want, but the data you cite doesn't show what you think it shows.

-I don't buy the concerns of o we regulation all that much on the federal level. America is very under-regulated on the federal level and if we go overboard we can pull back. Amazon and these damn mega firms will not be running out of business, they will not stop making money. They will just have less market power and will have to share more of the prosperity with workers and smaller firms.

-Sorry but your argument on housing is flat wrong. Higher prices are driven by lack of supply. The main cause of housing shortages in urban is restrictive zoning laws and NIMBYISM (even though the great recession also caused massive labor shortages as well). Those laws and nimby *******s restrict expansions to the housing stock either because of racism or trying to protect property values. If more land was viable for development (available land is more scare in urban areas) more developers would build, increasing the housing stock and putting downward pressure on the market price.

First off, even if you look at all medical services buildings combine that argument still falls because health services are essential for cities, having an Amazon HQ is not.

A single doctor’s office doesn’t increase the demand for housing at the same level of Amazon. Sorry but this is a ridiculous comparison. Not because of the physical land, but because of the number of workers. That is what drives up demand and makes shortages worst shortages, because people want to work near their jobs. So, Amazon workers want to work near Amazon HQ to have lower commuting times. American lacks good public transit to get people from the burbs quickly, and traffic jams are common in cities. So, workers chose to live near work.

Look at what is happening in Boise, or Reno. Firms are moving in, attracting new workers from outside the regional, and the housing stock can’t keep up. So, prices rise. If that is not the case, please tell me which suburban areas are current state residents flooding in from to causing the jumps in prices we see in Boise and Reno?

This principle holds for not just urban area. It is just it is worst in urban areas because the shortages of available land to build there is worst. Here, it discusses supply shortages:



It is not just some organic unrelated change in taste preferences going on.

-Seattle got hit with a housing and homelessness crisis because of all the tech firms. The city council wanted to tax those firms a little to help the homeless. Many firms were fine, but Amazon flipped its ****. They threaten to move (they didn’t), instead they poured tons of money into an effort to kill the small tax that was meant to help the homeless. And these the mother****ers I am supposed to want to protect making ungodly sums of money all the while doing all kinds of other bull****?

These taxes to help the homeless and low income have housing is not going to hurt these mega firms in any real way. No one is attacking high earners, they are saying to have a relatively concessive equitable society, they need to pay more. High earners are not some marginalized class that needs protecting. How about if taxes increase little , how about they just adapt.

-Ok you didn’t say he said they were solely responsible, you said he make they argument that they were responsible. Boris said contribute. Furthermore, your constant pointing out that there are other firms that drive certain outcomes gives the impression you are pushing back against someone saying amazon alone is responsible. At the end of your last post you even said “Dude mentioned everything under the sun:

Apparently, Amazon is responsible for rising rent prices, low wages, national debt, and student loan debt……

You attributed and argument to B boris that he didn’t make. He didn’t even list any of those things

-So none of this is anecdotal, wtf, it is not based on my person experiences. It is applying economic theory to the macroeconomy to understand structural issues. Economic data is worthless without proper interruption and context.

You famb and I respect your opinion a lot, but I just feel your arguments just seem kinda short sighted because it ignores so much of those things.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

It's a combination. I agree that the system allows them to do it, and that it needs to be fixed. However, companies like Amazon have so much power and wealth that they can influence and control how the system works.

Right which is a bigger problem with the system. It shouldn’t be bought. Nothing’s gonna change until that changes. There will just be the next amazon doing the same thing.