The Official NBA PG Thread

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

I'm extremely biased.
Click to expand...
Yeah we know.

And FYI, NBA teams employ both, see Synergy Sports. And scouts use plenty of statistics, i.e. "Hey Kobe, statistically Tyreke is not effective going towards his left hand so overplay him right." As for the rest of your nonsense, basically you can't think of a response or one thing Deron does better than Paul so you decided to qualify a new catergory called "it." Good for you. Now take your L and exit the thread.
Click to expand...
I respected you until you took that out of context. Whatever wins you points in front of your friends on NT, I guess.

I've stated several things that Deron does better...defense, shooting, clutch play, more wins, more Playoff series wins, better playoff #s, etc. In addition, he has owned CP3 head to head since college. There's obviously no arguing him being bigger, stronger, more durable.... Deron has equal if not better handles, has a better crossover, and always plays well against better teams. Deron is a bigger mismatch for most teams...not many PGs with his size, strength, skills. He's the complete PG, name 1 thing he doesn't do well?

Maybe since CP3 has received the accolades since day 1 it's kinda hard to see how Deron can come close but just remember, Deron was drafted higher (since you want to give Utah's front office so much praise do you think they made the right choice here?). Bill Simmons, arguably CP3s biggest rider, even said this about Deron last April: "I've got to say I think he's the best point guard."
 
One more thing...when CP3 was healthy, remember what Billups did to him in the 09 playoffs (36 points in a 30 point blowout)...then remember how Deron destroyed Billups the very next series...Deron's game elevates in the postseason, the 1st player to ever go 20/10 in 5 straight playoff games. But I guess we can just keep laughing at Deron having "it" since CP3s FG % is higher...Lol

And just because everyone seems to think Deron > CP3 is so
laugh.gif
, know that all of the NBA GMs were surveyed and 60% said Deron was the best. Maybe they forgot to compare the FG% #s though, so I won't look too much into it.

Good little back and forth, I'll revisit this thread around New Years. Respect to abovelegit1 but I have no love for Canadian basketball's NT ambassador
 
One more thing...when CP3 was healthy, remember what Billups did to him in the 09 playoffs (36 points in a 30 point blowout)...then remember how Deron destroyed Billups the very next series...Deron's game elevates in the postseason, the 1st player to ever go 20/10 in 5 straight playoff games. But I guess we can just keep laughing at Deron having "it" since CP3s FG % is higher...Lol

And just because everyone seems to think Deron > CP3 is so
laugh.gif
, know that all of the NBA GMs were surveyed and 60% said Deron was the best. Maybe they forgot to compare the FG% #s though, so I won't look too much into it.

Good little back and forth, I'll revisit this thread around New Years. Respect to abovelegit1 but I have no love for Canadian basketball's NT ambassador
 
Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Originally Posted by abovelegit1
Click to expand...
I respected you until you took that out of context. Whatever wins you points in front of your friends on NT, I guess.

I've stated several things that Deron does better...defense, shooting, clutch play, more wins, more Playoff series wins, better playoff #s, etc. In addition, he has owned CP3 head to head since college. There's obviously no arguing him being bigger, stronger, more durable.... Deron has equal if not better handles, has a better crossover, and always plays well against better teams. Deron is a bigger mismatch for most teams...not many PGs with his size, strength, skills. He's the complete PG, name 1 thing he doesn't do well?

Maybe since CP3 has received the accolades since day 1 it's kinda hard to see how Deron can come close but just remember, Deron was drafted higher (since you want to give Utah's front office so much praise do you think they made the right choice here?). Bill Simmons, arguably CP3s biggest rider, even said this about Deron last April: "I've got to say I think he's the best point guard."
Click to expand...
Dude, I'm not trying to disrespect you, but you just can't see that you're wrong. His defense is not better, if anything they're both average. He's not a better shooter, not sure why you can't see that given the fg% numbers throughout their careers. Wins are a function of a team, not an individual player, word to Kobe before the Lakers acquired Gasol. Clutch play can't really be quantified and differentiated, but it's safe to say they both come through when needed. However, Paul's probably more "clutch" seeing as how he has performed better in the playoffs. Deron's playoff numbers are ~21, 10, and 3 on 46% shooting. Paul's are 22, 11, and 5 on 48% shooting. Paul's a better shooter, scorer, passer, rebounder. As far as "handle" Deron turns it over more so we can ascertain that his ball control is not better than Paul's. Deron's physical attributes are irrelevant, because Paul is better. KG was always a better athlete than Duncan, yet you wouldn't find anyone who would take the former over the latter.

A lot of the doubts around CP3 last year were due to his injury issues. The fact remains that he is better at the game of basketball that Deron Williams is. And that's the last I'll say about that.
 
Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Originally Posted by abovelegit1
Click to expand...
I respected you until you took that out of context. Whatever wins you points in front of your friends on NT, I guess.

I've stated several things that Deron does better...defense, shooting, clutch play, more wins, more Playoff series wins, better playoff #s, etc. In addition, he has owned CP3 head to head since college. There's obviously no arguing him being bigger, stronger, more durable.... Deron has equal if not better handles, has a better crossover, and always plays well against better teams. Deron is a bigger mismatch for most teams...not many PGs with his size, strength, skills. He's the complete PG, name 1 thing he doesn't do well?

Maybe since CP3 has received the accolades since day 1 it's kinda hard to see how Deron can come close but just remember, Deron was drafted higher (since you want to give Utah's front office so much praise do you think they made the right choice here?). Bill Simmons, arguably CP3s biggest rider, even said this about Deron last April: "I've got to say I think he's the best point guard."
Click to expand...
Dude, I'm not trying to disrespect you, but you just can't see that you're wrong. His defense is not better, if anything they're both average. He's not a better shooter, not sure why you can't see that given the fg% numbers throughout their careers. Wins are a function of a team, not an individual player, word to Kobe before the Lakers acquired Gasol. Clutch play can't really be quantified and differentiated, but it's safe to say they both come through when needed. However, Paul's probably more "clutch" seeing as how he has performed better in the playoffs. Deron's playoff numbers are ~21, 10, and 3 on 46% shooting. Paul's are 22, 11, and 5 on 48% shooting. Paul's a better shooter, scorer, passer, rebounder. As far as "handle" Deron turns it over more so we can ascertain that his ball control is not better than Paul's. Deron's physical attributes are irrelevant, because Paul is better. KG was always a better athlete than Duncan, yet you wouldn't find anyone who would take the former over the latter.

A lot of the doubts around CP3 last year were due to his injury issues. The fact remains that he is better at the game of basketball that Deron Williams is. And that's the last I'll say about that.
 
My take is that Williams is a better overall player where as Paul is a better PG.
I would want both with Paul on the ball more, and if chosing one to specifically play the point I want Paul.
But I think Williams is the better player.
I think that Williams plays better team D, I think Williams is a better leader, and I think Williams will max out every player on the team, where as Paul has only maxed out Big men
I love when Williams goes off the ball and creates shots for himself.
and I think that the systems each guy plays in suits their strengths.

I think that you can take Paul out of the game, where as it is impossible to take Williams out of a game as of now. When I say take him out of the game I mean sometimes Paul doesnt always play the game for his teammates he will play it for himself on occasion.
As in padding stats and such.
There are too many instances of me watching Paul ( more so in the past I will admit) waste a whole game
not taking shots. Then make a couple 3 pointers and get to his season averages. Now when you can clearly state that he is the teams best scorer, and you watch him swing the ball into the corner and watch the ball and not make an effort to score you have made a problem with me as a fan, and in my evaluation of who is better.
I do not like the fact that Paul uses less posessions, because while it might create better flow the Hornets have been a bad team for a while. again sans this season.

I think the guy above me had it correct though and while the ultimate goal has not been seen ( winning a title) it is KG, Duncan all over again.
Garnett ( Paul) had every physical attribute sans size and strength but he was unwilling to fully adopt himself to winning. We can make every argument stat wise as to this, we can site instances on the floor, we can cite teammates but the true measure is wins and loses. Because this is a flawed argument in the first place (neither PG is emotionally capible of taking a team to a title if simply cause they have not done it) it became a pointless debate in 2008 when I stopped for the most part making my arguments for Williams.

For me the debate can be statistics. And Paul will be the best PG in the world for the rest of his career if thats the debate.
The debate can be physical if thats the case Westbrook is the best PG in the world
If its the "it" factor as in doing whatever it takes for your team to win on a certain night I would take Derrick Rose. Seeing as none of the elite PG's sans Rondo, have won titles (and to be fair to the others I legit think Rondo cost Boston the title in the Finals last year)
I personally can faithfully stand by my earlier statement that Paul is the best PG.
Williams is the best player ( Rose is catching up in that regard) and that all of them will need to make changes/ improvements in their games to win titles. I can honestly state that in the 2005 draft the Jazz got the best player, I can say that Westbrook is the best athlete, and I can say that John Wall has the most talent.
And thats the beauty of the argument.
I can say that Rondo cost Boston the finals series, but I can also say that Boston might not have gotten past Orlando if Paul were on the floor who's to say that Jameer Nelson ( a very good and slightly underrated player at this point) wouldnt have played better than he did with Rondo defending him.
Would either argument be null and void, would any of my statements be null and void. I think its fun to compare the different guys, but the weaknesses in the players games makes the arguments drag on and become cluster #$*$@.
Its just like when I say that Derrick Rose is the MVP to this point in the season. Not a bad argument if you watch the games. But Paul is the best PG surrounded by top to bottom more talent than Rose (Boozer swings it to Rose), Williams has more talent than Paul, Rondo more talent than anyone of those guys. The more talent you have, the more efficent your allowed to be as an pure PG.
Those circumstances being the reason I make the statement as to Rose being MVP.
All of the above is probabily why Jason Kidd is considered a better PG than Gary Payton, Magic better than Stockton and Isiah etc.
Its the reason I will never put Oscar Robinson in my top 10 players of all time
Wins, losses and titles meaning more than physical attributes and stats. And can you take an inferior team to somewhere it shouldnt be.
Aka the It factor.
Its what made Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, and Michael special. Its what still makes Isiah Thomas the best small guard in NBA history. I think thats the only real way to judge a player, and anything else is lip service.
I think Paul is making huge strides in that department
Williams has for the most part proven himself in that area.
And after that sans the older guys the rest have something to prove ( over the long haul 4-5 years)

People are in the thread talking about Paul being a Hofer etc. first of all not yet, but second of all this debate Williams Vs Paul will remain the same if these guys never win titles / does the Gary Payton.
And at this point its down right disrespectful to say that Paul and Williams arent the 2 best pg's in the league.
Are they the 2 best players playing the position? I dont think so but there is a clear definition as to how to how the majority of NBA teams want the point played and they do it the best.
They are the best 2 distributors without being liabilities to shoot ( Rondo, Westbrook)
Terrible on D (Nash)
Or caught in the abyss of shooting to much/ defering too much (Rose)
 
My take is that Williams is a better overall player where as Paul is a better PG.
I would want both with Paul on the ball more, and if chosing one to specifically play the point I want Paul.
But I think Williams is the better player.
I think that Williams plays better team D, I think Williams is a better leader, and I think Williams will max out every player on the team, where as Paul has only maxed out Big men
I love when Williams goes off the ball and creates shots for himself.
and I think that the systems each guy plays in suits their strengths.

I think that you can take Paul out of the game, where as it is impossible to take Williams out of a game as of now. When I say take him out of the game I mean sometimes Paul doesnt always play the game for his teammates he will play it for himself on occasion.
As in padding stats and such.
There are too many instances of me watching Paul ( more so in the past I will admit) waste a whole game
not taking shots. Then make a couple 3 pointers and get to his season averages. Now when you can clearly state that he is the teams best scorer, and you watch him swing the ball into the corner and watch the ball and not make an effort to score you have made a problem with me as a fan, and in my evaluation of who is better.
I do not like the fact that Paul uses less posessions, because while it might create better flow the Hornets have been a bad team for a while. again sans this season.

I think the guy above me had it correct though and while the ultimate goal has not been seen ( winning a title) it is KG, Duncan all over again.
Garnett ( Paul) had every physical attribute sans size and strength but he was unwilling to fully adopt himself to winning. We can make every argument stat wise as to this, we can site instances on the floor, we can cite teammates but the true measure is wins and loses. Because this is a flawed argument in the first place (neither PG is emotionally capible of taking a team to a title if simply cause they have not done it) it became a pointless debate in 2008 when I stopped for the most part making my arguments for Williams.

For me the debate can be statistics. And Paul will be the best PG in the world for the rest of his career if thats the debate.
The debate can be physical if thats the case Westbrook is the best PG in the world
If its the "it" factor as in doing whatever it takes for your team to win on a certain night I would take Derrick Rose. Seeing as none of the elite PG's sans Rondo, have won titles (and to be fair to the others I legit think Rondo cost Boston the title in the Finals last year)
I personally can faithfully stand by my earlier statement that Paul is the best PG.
Williams is the best player ( Rose is catching up in that regard) and that all of them will need to make changes/ improvements in their games to win titles. I can honestly state that in the 2005 draft the Jazz got the best player, I can say that Westbrook is the best athlete, and I can say that John Wall has the most talent.
And thats the beauty of the argument.
I can say that Rondo cost Boston the finals series, but I can also say that Boston might not have gotten past Orlando if Paul were on the floor who's to say that Jameer Nelson ( a very good and slightly underrated player at this point) wouldnt have played better than he did with Rondo defending him.
Would either argument be null and void, would any of my statements be null and void. I think its fun to compare the different guys, but the weaknesses in the players games makes the arguments drag on and become cluster #$*$@.
Its just like when I say that Derrick Rose is the MVP to this point in the season. Not a bad argument if you watch the games. But Paul is the best PG surrounded by top to bottom more talent than Rose (Boozer swings it to Rose), Williams has more talent than Paul, Rondo more talent than anyone of those guys. The more talent you have, the more efficent your allowed to be as an pure PG.
Those circumstances being the reason I make the statement as to Rose being MVP.
All of the above is probabily why Jason Kidd is considered a better PG than Gary Payton, Magic better than Stockton and Isiah etc.
Its the reason I will never put Oscar Robinson in my top 10 players of all time
Wins, losses and titles meaning more than physical attributes and stats. And can you take an inferior team to somewhere it shouldnt be.
Aka the It factor.
Its what made Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, and Michael special. Its what still makes Isiah Thomas the best small guard in NBA history. I think thats the only real way to judge a player, and anything else is lip service.
I think Paul is making huge strides in that department
Williams has for the most part proven himself in that area.
And after that sans the older guys the rest have something to prove ( over the long haul 4-5 years)

People are in the thread talking about Paul being a Hofer etc. first of all not yet, but second of all this debate Williams Vs Paul will remain the same if these guys never win titles / does the Gary Payton.
And at this point its down right disrespectful to say that Paul and Williams arent the 2 best pg's in the league.
Are they the 2 best players playing the position? I dont think so but there is a clear definition as to how to how the majority of NBA teams want the point played and they do it the best.
They are the best 2 distributors without being liabilities to shoot ( Rondo, Westbrook)
Terrible on D (Nash)
Or caught in the abyss of shooting to much/ defering too much (Rose)
 
As for the shooting debate
Williams is a better shooter who takes tougher shots.
I don't think Paul takes many shots he cannot consistently make.
I think Williams free lancing from the system a bit more/ using more possessions contributes to his slightly lower shooting percentages.
Paul is the better passer.
And thats not because of the subjective stat of assists.
Williams is the better defender both with varying levels of average Williams is above average Paul below.
Paul is quicker, Williams more physical. Paul gets more steals on help, Williams rotates better ( for his system).
Williams can guard every bigger guard Paul gets lit up and loses against an elite big (over 6"2 180 lb guard)
Williams is better at taking over a game.
 

FTR the point is the toughest position to defend today.
With Billups teams make him initiate the offense and thus have Carmelo making more decisions as to when to pass etc.  He is better with teams that isolate more or give him opportunities to catch and shoot. His pull up 3 in all situations cost the Hornets a whole playoff series in 2008

With Nash they try and make him score
With Rose and Westbrook they go underneath all screens  and try and keep both outside of the free throw line

Those guys thus keep it simple and if the jumper is open usually shoot it, if the jumper isn't open then they look at body position and either drive, look to see who helped and pass.

With Rondo they go underneath all screens, but Boston keeps guys moving and Rondo will either hit the roll, ( he usually goes wide to throw the lob) stays near the top of the key to hit a bounce pass, or the Celtics will also have action off the ball runing congruent to the screen roll trying to hit Allen or Pierce for a three.
Also with Rondo there will be a set run for him to get the ball to Garnett, Pierce or Allen in a catch and shoot situation.

Paul and Williams get defended with a combination of Billups, Paul running to shoot the three in most situations available, Williams prefering to break his man down. Rondo. Williams now almost exclusively trying to hit the roll with Jefferson setting the screen. Milsap poping out more. and thus the same dynamic with Paul and West ( pop) and Okafor (roll)
Between those 2 Williams is better at using the pick to get to the paint. Paul is better at getting a look for 3.
Of course that is the simplified tendacies and stratagies. I have no interest in breaking down a whole game ever in my life.

  
 
As for the shooting debate
Williams is a better shooter who takes tougher shots.
I don't think Paul takes many shots he cannot consistently make.
I think Williams free lancing from the system a bit more/ using more possessions contributes to his slightly lower shooting percentages.
Paul is the better passer.
And thats not because of the subjective stat of assists.
Williams is the better defender both with varying levels of average Williams is above average Paul below.
Paul is quicker, Williams more physical. Paul gets more steals on help, Williams rotates better ( for his system).
Williams can guard every bigger guard Paul gets lit up and loses against an elite big (over 6"2 180 lb guard)
Williams is better at taking over a game.
 

FTR the point is the toughest position to defend today.
With Billups teams make him initiate the offense and thus have Carmelo making more decisions as to when to pass etc.  He is better with teams that isolate more or give him opportunities to catch and shoot. His pull up 3 in all situations cost the Hornets a whole playoff series in 2008

With Nash they try and make him score
With Rose and Westbrook they go underneath all screens  and try and keep both outside of the free throw line

Those guys thus keep it simple and if the jumper is open usually shoot it, if the jumper isn't open then they look at body position and either drive, look to see who helped and pass.

With Rondo they go underneath all screens, but Boston keeps guys moving and Rondo will either hit the roll, ( he usually goes wide to throw the lob) stays near the top of the key to hit a bounce pass, or the Celtics will also have action off the ball runing congruent to the screen roll trying to hit Allen or Pierce for a three.
Also with Rondo there will be a set run for him to get the ball to Garnett, Pierce or Allen in a catch and shoot situation.

Paul and Williams get defended with a combination of Billups, Paul running to shoot the three in most situations available, Williams prefering to break his man down. Rondo. Williams now almost exclusively trying to hit the roll with Jefferson setting the screen. Milsap poping out more. and thus the same dynamic with Paul and West ( pop) and Okafor (roll)
Between those 2 Williams is better at using the pick to get to the paint. Paul is better at getting a look for 3.
Of course that is the simplified tendacies and stratagies. I have no interest in breaking down a whole game ever in my life.

  
 
If you're going by the purest definition of the word then I don't see why not Rondo is the best pg. He is in sync with every single teammate. He knows where they're all gnna be. He gets them to their favorite spots and he feeds them at the right time. And I think he's averaging the most assists a game. If you're going by best player playing the pg position it will probably be Rose very, very soon. Definitely the best scorer at his position. And his 8 assists a game don't tell the whole story I feel. He gets a lot of hockey assists and he would prolly average 10 asssists a game if his teammates were better at knocking down open jumpers.
 
If you're going by the purest definition of the word then I don't see why not Rondo is the best pg. He is in sync with every single teammate. He knows where they're all gnna be. He gets them to their favorite spots and he feeds them at the right time. And I think he's averaging the most assists a game. If you're going by best player playing the pg position it will probably be Rose very, very soon. Definitely the best scorer at his position. And his 8 assists a game don't tell the whole story I feel. He gets a lot of hockey assists and he would prolly average 10 asssists a game if his teammates were better at knocking down open jumpers.
 
Originally Posted by amel223

Drose is in that first tier of point guards right now.  I don't care what anyone says.  
Click to expand...
I don't either. Don't let me bring in the stat list.
 
Originally Posted by amel223

Drose is in that first tier of point guards right now.  I don't care what anyone says.  
Click to expand...
I don't either. Don't let me bring in the stat list.
 
I still have the tiers the same as when the season started, except I moved Westbrook to the 2nd tier. The 2nd tier is right on the cusp no doubt about it.

Williams/Paul/Nash
Rondo/Rose /Westbrook
 
I still have the tiers the same as when the season started, except I moved Westbrook to the 2nd tier. The 2nd tier is right on the cusp no doubt about it.

Williams/Paul/Nash
Rondo/Rose /Westbrook
 
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