The Official NBA PG Thread

[crazy dav0]

^^^ u got me ... cp3 is a way better shooter and a way better player than deron ...

also ... i've now been convinced that westbrook is better than deron also to the person who stated that they aren't sure deron is better than westbrook

the order is cp3, westbrook, deron, rondo, rose

 

[crazy dav0]

^^^ u got me ... cp3 is a way better shooter and a way better player than deron ...

also ... i've now been convinced that westbrook is better than deron also to the person who stated that they aren't sure deron is better than westbrook

the order is cp3, westbrook, deron, rondo, rose

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Seems like an argument between traditionalists (Rosen) and new-age stats based scouting (Hollinger/Pelton). Personally, I favor the stats guys, but one shouldn't dismiss the other just for the sake of being right. When evaluating a player both qualitative and quantitative analysis should be utilized. With that said, Chris Paul is easily the superior player and will eventually go down as an all-time great point guard. He a better shooter, much better passer, turns it over less, and can run an offense better. Just watch him operate a pick and roll; thing of beauty. He makes David West (not that he's a scrub) look like the mailman out there. This isn't a knock on Deron who is a quality player himself, I'm just not sure he's better than Russell Westbrook let alone the best point guard on the planet.

I disagree with everything you said, mainly because all your points favor Deron as well. For the record I think Deron is slightly better than CP3

You say CP3 makes David West look like the mailman, well Deron helped TWO second round picks (Boozer, Millsap) play like All-Stars (David West was a 1st round pick by the way).

Much better passer? Do you watch the games or do you just watch Chris Paul mixes? Watch last night's highlights of Deron vs the Lakers or Deron's playoff series against the Spurs in 2007 where he abused Parker and company (the eventual champions)

Can run an offense better? Check the head to head stats, record, etc. Deron has dominated CP3 since day 1 and Deron is a tougher matchup than any other PG in the league (size, speed, shooting, handles i.e. Jason Terry's ankles, clutch play). You have the athletic PGs (Rose, Westbrook) and the savvy veterans (Kidd, Nash) but Deron gives you the best of both sides. Plus he elevates the games of others (see the contracts Boozer, Wes Matthews, Ronnie Brewer signed over the off season...and wait for the deals Millsap gets).

Not better than Russell Westbrook? Like you'd honestly pick Russell Westbrook for your team if your life depended on it? Maybe to start a franchise Westbrook makes sense (younger, more upside) but as of TODAY, Westbrook is still behind Deron and CP3. Westbrook and Rose still need to catch Rondo (peep Rondo's stats from last year's playoffs

).

Deron/Rondo
CP3
Rose
Westbrook (slowly gaining ground on Rose though)

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Seems like an argument between traditionalists (Rosen) and new-age stats based scouting (Hollinger/Pelton). Personally, I favor the stats guys, but one shouldn't dismiss the other just for the sake of being right. When evaluating a player both qualitative and quantitative analysis should be utilized. With that said, Chris Paul is easily the superior player and will eventually go down as an all-time great point guard. He a better shooter, much better passer, turns it over less, and can run an offense better. Just watch him operate a pick and roll; thing of beauty. He makes David West (not that he's a scrub) look like the mailman out there. This isn't a knock on Deron who is a quality player himself, I'm just not sure he's better than Russell Westbrook let alone the best point guard on the planet.

I disagree with everything you said, mainly because all your points favor Deron as well. For the record I think Deron is slightly better than CP3

You say CP3 makes David West look like the mailman, well Deron helped TWO second round picks (Boozer, Millsap) play like All-Stars (David West was a 1st round pick by the way).

Much better passer? Do you watch the games or do you just watch Chris Paul mixes? Watch last night's highlights of Deron vs the Lakers or Deron's playoff series against the Spurs in 2007 where he abused Parker and company (the eventual champions)

Can run an offense better? Check the head to head stats, record, etc. Deron has dominated CP3 since day 1 and Deron is a tougher matchup than any other PG in the league (size, speed, shooting, handles i.e. Jason Terry's ankles, clutch play). You have the athletic PGs (Rose, Westbrook) and the savvy veterans (Kidd, Nash) but Deron gives you the best of both sides. Plus he elevates the games of others (see the contracts Boozer, Wes Matthews, Ronnie Brewer signed over the off season...and wait for the deals Millsap gets).

Not better than Russell Westbrook? Like you'd honestly pick Russell Westbrook for your team if your life depended on it? Maybe to start a franchise Westbrook makes sense (younger, more upside) but as of TODAY, Westbrook is still behind Deron and CP3. Westbrook and Rose still need to catch Rondo (peep Rondo's stats from last year's playoffs

).

Deron/Rondo
CP3
Rose
Westbrook (slowly gaining ground on Rose though)

 

[mjsaver]

@ all the people downplaying how D. Will has dominated the head to head matchups, yall know dam well if CP3 was 15-3 against D. Will we'd never hear the end of it.

Theyre still 1a & 1b , and i'd take D. Will by a hair.

Westbrook is good, i just dont see him as a COMPLETE pg...still cant shoot CONSISTENTLY, and until he does i dont see him approaching 1a & 1b's level.

 

[mjsaver]

@ all the people downplaying how D. Will has dominated the head to head matchups, yall know dam well if CP3 was 15-3 against D. Will we'd never hear the end of it.

Theyre still 1a & 1b , and i'd take D. Will by a hair.

Westbrook is good, i just dont see him as a COMPLETE pg...still cant shoot CONSISTENTLY, and until he does i dont see him approaching 1a & 1b's level.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Seems like an argument between traditionalists (Rosen) and new-age stats based scouting (Hollinger/Pelton). Personally, I favor the stats guys, but one shouldn't dismiss the other just for the sake of being right. When evaluating a player both qualitative and quantitative analysis should be utilized. With that said, Chris Paul is easily the superior player and will eventually go down as an all-time great point guard. He a better shooter, much better passer, turns it over less, and can run an offense better. Just watch him operate a pick and roll; thing of beauty. He makes David West (not that he's a scrub) look like the mailman out there. This isn't a knock on Deron who is a quality player himself, I'm just not sure he's better than Russell Westbrook let alone the best point guard on the planet.

I disagree with everything you said, mainly because all your points favor Deron as well. For the record I think Deron is slightly better than CP3

You say CP3 makes David West look like the mailman, well Deron helped TWO second round picks (Boozer, Millsap) play like All-Stars (David West was a 1st round pick by the way).

Much better passer? Do you watch the games or do you just watch Chris Paul mixes? Watch last night's highlights of Deron vs the Lakers or Deron's playoff series against the Spurs in 2007 where he abused Parker and company (the eventual champions)

Can run an offense better? Check the head to head stats, record, etc. Deron has dominated CP3 since day 1 and Deron is a tougher matchup than any other PG in the league (size, speed, shooting, handles i.e. Jason Terry's ankles, clutch play). You have the athletic PGs (Rose, Westbrook) and the savvy veterans (Kidd, Nash) but Deron gives you the best of both sides. Plus he elevates the games of others (see the contracts Boozer, Wes Matthews, Ronnie Brewer signed over the off season...and wait for the deals Millsap gets).

Not better than Russell Westbrook? Like you'd honestly pick Russell Westbrook for your team if your life depended on it? Maybe to start a franchise Westbrook makes sense (younger, more upside) but as of TODAY, Westbrook is still behind Deron and CP3. Westbrook and Rose still need to catch Rondo (peep Rondo's stats from last year's playoffs

).

Deron/Rondo
CP3
Rose
Westbrook (slowly gaining ground on Rose though)

First off, your arguments are erroneous and completely arbitrary. Not once in your entire spiel did you give any hard evidence that supports your points. When I asserted that Paul was the better passer you asked me if I just watched CP  highlight mixes. Then to prove your point about Deron being the better passer you tell me to watch last night's highlights? Really? All I know is that Paul's assist ratio (percentage of possessions that end in an assist) is 39.3 compared to Deron's which is 30.7. CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8. A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense. CP3 does both more effectively than Deron, therefore he is a better point guard and runs an offense better.

He is a better scorer than Williams, evidenced by his field goal percentages given above by JD617. Likewise he is a better rebounder than Williams, a rebound rate (percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds) of 8.2 compared to 6.2. Neither are great defenders, but I'd give the edge to Deron for on-ball defense due to size/strength. And Paul for help defense and general disruption (3 steals per). So that's a wash.

As for your other points (head to head record, stats, etc.) they are mostly irrelevant. Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is. Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it. Still, this can be applied to Paul as well who has overachieved in terms of team success with medicore teams. And yes Deron has slightly outperformed Paul when they go head to head, probably due to his size and strength. But realize that there are 29 other teams in the NBA against which Paul performs better. BTW, I'm a fan of Deron's game. Great player.

And yes if Westbrook maintains his level of production on offense and his phenomenal defense he has displayed thus far this season I would take him over Deron. Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far. Not saying I would take him over Deron right now though, get back to me after the season.

Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable.

Cliffnotes: CP3eron

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Seems like an argument between traditionalists (Rosen) and new-age stats based scouting (Hollinger/Pelton). Personally, I favor the stats guys, but one shouldn't dismiss the other just for the sake of being right. When evaluating a player both qualitative and quantitative analysis should be utilized. With that said, Chris Paul is easily the superior player and will eventually go down as an all-time great point guard. He a better shooter, much better passer, turns it over less, and can run an offense better. Just watch him operate a pick and roll; thing of beauty. He makes David West (not that he's a scrub) look like the mailman out there. This isn't a knock on Deron who is a quality player himself, I'm just not sure he's better than Russell Westbrook let alone the best point guard on the planet.

I disagree with everything you said, mainly because all your points favor Deron as well. For the record I think Deron is slightly better than CP3

You say CP3 makes David West look like the mailman, well Deron helped TWO second round picks (Boozer, Millsap) play like All-Stars (David West was a 1st round pick by the way).

Much better passer? Do you watch the games or do you just watch Chris Paul mixes? Watch last night's highlights of Deron vs the Lakers or Deron's playoff series against the Spurs in 2007 where he abused Parker and company (the eventual champions)

Can run an offense better? Check the head to head stats, record, etc. Deron has dominated CP3 since day 1 and Deron is a tougher matchup than any other PG in the league (size, speed, shooting, handles i.e. Jason Terry's ankles, clutch play). You have the athletic PGs (Rose, Westbrook) and the savvy veterans (Kidd, Nash) but Deron gives you the best of both sides. Plus he elevates the games of others (see the contracts Boozer, Wes Matthews, Ronnie Brewer signed over the off season...and wait for the deals Millsap gets).

Not better than Russell Westbrook? Like you'd honestly pick Russell Westbrook for your team if your life depended on it? Maybe to start a franchise Westbrook makes sense (younger, more upside) but as of TODAY, Westbrook is still behind Deron and CP3. Westbrook and Rose still need to catch Rondo (peep Rondo's stats from last year's playoffs

).

Deron/Rondo
CP3
Rose
Westbrook (slowly gaining ground on Rose though)

First off, your arguments are erroneous and completely arbitrary. Not once in your entire spiel did you give any hard evidence that supports your points. When I asserted that Paul was the better passer you asked me if I just watched CP  highlight mixes. Then to prove your point about Deron being the better passer you tell me to watch last night's highlights? Really? All I know is that Paul's assist ratio (percentage of possessions that end in an assist) is 39.3 compared to Deron's which is 30.7. CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8. A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense. CP3 does both more effectively than Deron, therefore he is a better point guard and runs an offense better.

He is a better scorer than Williams, evidenced by his field goal percentages given above by JD617. Likewise he is a better rebounder than Williams, a rebound rate (percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds) of 8.2 compared to 6.2. Neither are great defenders, but I'd give the edge to Deron for on-ball defense due to size/strength. And Paul for help defense and general disruption (3 steals per). So that's a wash.

As for your other points (head to head record, stats, etc.) they are mostly irrelevant. Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is. Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it. Still, this can be applied to Paul as well who has overachieved in terms of team success with medicore teams. And yes Deron has slightly outperformed Paul when they go head to head, probably due to his size and strength. But realize that there are 29 other teams in the NBA against which Paul performs better. BTW, I'm a fan of Deron's game. Great player.

And yes if Westbrook maintains his level of production on offense and his phenomenal defense he has displayed thus far this season I would take him over Deron. Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far. Not saying I would take him over Deron right now though, get back to me after the season.

Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable.

Cliffnotes: CP3eron

 

[JD617]

Deron/Rondo
CP3
You and Tommy Heinsohn are the only two people in the world who believe that.

 

[JD617]

Deron/Rondo
CP3
You and Tommy Heinsohn are the only two people in the world who believe that.

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

First off, your arguments are erroneous and completely arbitrary. Not once in your entire spiel did you give any hard evidence that supports your points. When I asserted that Paul was the better passer you asked me if I just watched CP  highlight mixes. Then to prove your point about Deron being the better passer you tell me to watch last night's highlights? Really? All I know is that Paul's assist ratio (percentage of possessions that end in an assist) is 39.3 compared to Deron's which is 30.7. CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8. A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense. CP3 does both more effectively than Deron, therefore he is a better point guard and runs an offense better.

He is a better scorer than Williams, evidenced by his field goal percentages given above by JD617. Likewise he is a better rebounder than Williams, a rebound rate (percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds) of 8.2 compared to 6.2. Neither are great defenders, but I'd give the edge to Deron for on-ball defense due to size/strength. And Paul for help defense and general disruption (3 steals per). So that's a wash.

As for your other points (head to head record, stats, etc.) they are mostly irrelevant. Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is. Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it. Still, this can be applied to Paul as well who has overachieved in terms of team success with medicore teams. And yes Deron has slightly outperformed Paul when they go head to head, probably due to his size and strength. But realize that there are 29 other teams in the NBA against which Paul performs better. BTW, I'm a fan of Deron's game. Great player.

And yes if Westbrook maintains his level of production on offense and his phenomenal defense he has displayed thus far this season I would take him over Deron. Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far. Not saying I would take him over Deron right now though, get back to me after the season.

Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable.

Cliffnotes: CP3eron

Great response, I still disagree. To your points:

"A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense."
First and foremost, a BASKETBALL player's job is to excel on offense and defense. While some superstars seem to only excel in 1 area (Nash, Dwight), we have superstars who are more balanced (Kobe, CP3, Deron). I do agree that Deron is a superior on ball defender. With today's golden era of PGs in the NBA, you can't overlook Deron's obvious advantage in height, size, defense...if you want to go offense only, I think Deron/CP3 present distinct advantages but in terms of defense and leadership, I'll take Deron.

" CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8."
To your credit, it's almost impossible to argue against numbers. But this is the reason why some players play better than their numbers and some players #s inflate their actual talent i.e. Antawn Jamison vs Lamar Odom.

"Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is."
I'm not sure how to argue this point since my original assertion was that Deron made his teammates and thus his team better. Okafor is a #2 overall pick, David West was a damn near lottery pick, and Ariza has a ring. On the other side, AK47 is highly inconsistent, the Jazz lost 5 of their rotation players in the offseason (Boozer, Wes, Ronnie, Korver to other teams...all overpaid but I'll touch on that later...and Okur is still out due to injury). The Jazz and Hornets are both talented teams (as evidenced by their record this year so far), to say that head to head record means nothing is pretty ignorant.

"Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it."
Great deflection...I won't really argue this point because it's preposterous to insinuate that Sloan or the front office were more directly responsible than Deron for 100% of last year's Jazz free agents receiving ridiculous contracts from other teams.

"Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far."
Trust me, everyone has noticed. It's safe to say DRose and Westbrook have been the most surprising PGs thus far. We knew Rondo could pass, we knew Deron/CP3 would put up monster numbers, but DRose and Westbrook are leading their teams (sorry Durant) to victories...I definitely agree with you that Westbrook is playing like an elite PG

"Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable."
Rondo has already proven to be one of the best passers in NBA history...he has successfully managed some of the biggest egos/personalities to ever play basketball (ask the Glove how he enjoyed his stint with the Lakers), is already the best Celtic PG ever, is arguably the best defender at the 1 position since Gary Payton, and makes clutch plays. To discount him just because he has a broke jumper is laughable. Ask last year's Cavs or Magic if they'd rather have played Rondo or Deron in the playoffs. Rondo makes that team go and to say he's not part of the elite PG discussion is foolish.

Cliffnotes: Deron is slightly better than CP3 (not as clearcut or obvious as i.e. LeBron vs Melo), Rondo is underrated by NT

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

First off, your arguments are erroneous and completely arbitrary. Not once in your entire spiel did you give any hard evidence that supports your points. When I asserted that Paul was the better passer you asked me if I just watched CP  highlight mixes. Then to prove your point about Deron being the better passer you tell me to watch last night's highlights? Really? All I know is that Paul's assist ratio (percentage of possessions that end in an assist) is 39.3 compared to Deron's which is 30.7. CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8. A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense. CP3 does both more effectively than Deron, therefore he is a better point guard and runs an offense better.

He is a better scorer than Williams, evidenced by his field goal percentages given above by JD617. Likewise he is a better rebounder than Williams, a rebound rate (percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds) of 8.2 compared to 6.2. Neither are great defenders, but I'd give the edge to Deron for on-ball defense due to size/strength. And Paul for help defense and general disruption (3 steals per). So that's a wash.

As for your other points (head to head record, stats, etc.) they are mostly irrelevant. Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is. Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it. Still, this can be applied to Paul as well who has overachieved in terms of team success with medicore teams. And yes Deron has slightly outperformed Paul when they go head to head, probably due to his size and strength. But realize that there are 29 other teams in the NBA against which Paul performs better. BTW, I'm a fan of Deron's game. Great player.

And yes if Westbrook maintains his level of production on offense and his phenomenal defense he has displayed thus far this season I would take him over Deron. Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far. Not saying I would take him over Deron right now though, get back to me after the season.

Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable.

Cliffnotes: CP3eron

Great response, I still disagree. To your points:

"A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense."
First and foremost, a BASKETBALL player's job is to excel on offense and defense. While some superstars seem to only excel in 1 area (Nash, Dwight), we have superstars who are more balanced (Kobe, CP3, Deron). I do agree that Deron is a superior on ball defender. With today's golden era of PGs in the NBA, you can't overlook Deron's obvious advantage in height, size, defense...if you want to go offense only, I think Deron/CP3 present distinct advantages but in terms of defense and leadership, I'll take Deron.

" CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8."
To your credit, it's almost impossible to argue against numbers. But this is the reason why some players play better than their numbers and some players #s inflate their actual talent i.e. Antawn Jamison vs Lamar Odom.

"Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is."
I'm not sure how to argue this point since my original assertion was that Deron made his teammates and thus his team better. Okafor is a #2 overall pick, David West was a damn near lottery pick, and Ariza has a ring. On the other side, AK47 is highly inconsistent, the Jazz lost 5 of their rotation players in the offseason (Boozer, Wes, Ronnie, Korver to other teams...all overpaid but I'll touch on that later...and Okur is still out due to injury). The Jazz and Hornets are both talented teams (as evidenced by their record this year so far), to say that head to head record means nothing is pretty ignorant.

"Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it."
Great deflection...I won't really argue this point because it's preposterous to insinuate that Sloan or the front office were more directly responsible than Deron for 100% of last year's Jazz free agents receiving ridiculous contracts from other teams.

"Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far."
Trust me, everyone has noticed. It's safe to say DRose and Westbrook have been the most surprising PGs thus far. We knew Rondo could pass, we knew Deron/CP3 would put up monster numbers, but DRose and Westbrook are leading their teams (sorry Durant) to victories...I definitely agree with you that Westbrook is playing like an elite PG

"Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable."
Rondo has already proven to be one of the best passers in NBA history...he has successfully managed some of the biggest egos/personalities to ever play basketball (ask the Glove how he enjoyed his stint with the Lakers), is already the best Celtic PG ever, is arguably the best defender at the 1 position since Gary Payton, and makes clutch plays. To discount him just because he has a broke jumper is laughable. Ask last year's Cavs or Magic if they'd rather have played Rondo or Deron in the playoffs. Rondo makes that team go and to say he's not part of the elite PG discussion is foolish.

Cliffnotes: Deron is slightly better than CP3 (not as clearcut or obvious as i.e. LeBron vs Melo), Rondo is underrated by NT

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Great response, I still disagree. To your points:

"A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense."
First and foremost, a BASKETBALL player's job is to excel on offense and defense. While some superstars seem to only excel in 1 area (Nash, Dwight), we have superstars who are more balanced (Kobe, CP3, Deron). I do agree that Deron is a superior on ball defender. With today's golden era of PGs in the NBA, you can't overlook Deron's obvious advantage in height, size, defense...if you want to go offense only, I think Deron/CP3 present distinct advantages but in terms of defense and leadership, I'll take Deron.

" CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8."
To your credit, it's almost impossible to argue against numbers. But this is the reason why some players play better than their numbers and some players #s inflate their actual talent i.e. Antawn Jamison vs Lamar Odom.

"Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is."
I'm not sure how to argue this point since my original assertion was that Deron made his teammates and thus his team better. Okafor is a #2 overall pick, David West was a damn near lottery pick, and Ariza has a ring. On the other side, AK47 is highly inconsistent, the Jazz lost 5 of their rotation players in the offseason (Boozer, Wes, Ronnie, Korver to other teams...all overpaid but I'll touch on that later...and Okur is still out due to injury). The Jazz and Hornets are both talented teams (as evidenced by their record this year so far), to say that head to head record means nothing is pretty ignorant.

"Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it."
Great deflection...I won't really argue this point because it's preposterous to insinuate that Sloan or the front office were more directly responsible than Deron for 100% of last year's Jazz free agents receiving ridiculous contracts from other teams.

"Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far."
Trust me, everyone has noticed. It's safe to say DRose and Westbrook have been the most surprising PGs thus far. We knew Rondo could pass, we knew Deron/CP3 would put up monster numbers, but DRose and Westbrook are leading their teams (sorry Durant) to victories...I definitely agree with you that Westbrook is playing like an elite PG

"Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable."
Rondo has already proven to be one of the best passers in NBA history...he has successfully managed some of the biggest egos/personalities to ever play basketball (ask the Glove how he enjoyed his stint with the Lakers), is already the best Celtic PG ever, is arguably the best defender at the 1 position since Gary Payton, and makes clutch plays. To discount him just because he has a broke jumper is laughable. Ask last year's Cavs or Magic if they'd rather have played Rondo or Deron in the playoffs. Rondo makes that team go and to say he's not part of the elite PG discussion is foolish.

Cliffnotes: Deron is slightly better than CP3 (not as clearcut or obvious as i.e. LeBron vs Melo), Rondo is underrated by NT

Not sure where to begin with this, once again you based all your counterpoints purely on your own opinions. I like how you ignored my more pertinent assertions as well, i.e he's a better shooter (fg% from everywhere), better rebounder (rebound rate), assist to turnover rate, and assist ratio, which you dismissed by saying some players' numbers inflate their actual talent and referenced Odom and Jamison in doing so. Really?? As Ed Lover would say, "C'mon Son." Those numbers are a measure of a player's impact on the game a.k.a the player's value. If one player has a bigger impact than suffice to say he has more value and is a better player. Period.

And while I said Deron is a better on ball defender, I gave the edge to Paul in help defense, while noting neither one is particularly great. So that's a wash. As far as leadership goes, I wouldn't know and neither would you, unless you're employed by the Jazz or something.

As far as the team stuff goes, I'd say I don't hold much stock in it. This is because there are five men on the court at all times and everyone from the coach to opponent scouts have an effect on wins and losses. But to satisfy your need to get into it, I'll say that New Orleans has had a better record two of the past three years. And last year when they didn't Paul was injured intermittently throughout. And they'll probably have a better record this year too.

And when did I say Rondo wasn't an elite point guard? I said he has holes in his game that are significant enough to preclude him from being mentioned in the same category as Paul. And if you don't think mid range shooting, outside shooting, and free throw shooting are important for a guard to have I don't know what to tell you.

So in conclusion the only thing relevant you've said that supports your argument that Deron is better than Paul is that he outperforms him statistically when they go head to head. And I agree, if the Jazz played the Hornets 82 times a year Deron would probably be the better point guard. But they don't, he isn't, and once again you are wrong.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

Great response, I still disagree. To your points:

"A point guards job is to maximize scoring opportunities for others while minimizing turnovers or lost possessions which basically constitutes running an offense."
First and foremost, a BASKETBALL player's job is to excel on offense and defense. While some superstars seem to only excel in 1 area (Nash, Dwight), we have superstars who are more balanced (Kobe, CP3, Deron). I do agree that Deron is a superior on ball defender. With today's golden era of PGs in the NBA, you can't overlook Deron's obvious advantage in height, size, defense...if you want to go offense only, I think Deron/CP3 present distinct advantages but in terms of defense and leadership, I'll take Deron.

" CP3's assist to turnover ratio is an astounding 4.2, while Deron's is 2.8."
To your credit, it's almost impossible to argue against numbers. But this is the reason why some players play better than their numbers and some players #s inflate their actual talent i.e. Antawn Jamison vs Lamar Odom.

"Deron has consistently had better teams around him which is why the record is what it is."
I'm not sure how to argue this point since my original assertion was that Deron made his teammates and thus his team better. Okafor is a #2 overall pick, David West was a damn near lottery pick, and Ariza has a ring. On the other side, AK47 is highly inconsistent, the Jazz lost 5 of their rotation players in the offseason (Boozer, Wes, Ronnie, Korver to other teams...all overpaid but I'll touch on that later...and Okur is still out due to injury). The Jazz and Hornets are both talented teams (as evidenced by their record this year so far), to say that head to head record means nothing is pretty ignorant.

"Your assertions regarding the other players getting contracts and playing well reflects more on the front office and Jerry Sloan than Williams, though he had something to do with it."
Great deflection...I won't really argue this point because it's preposterous to insinuate that Sloan or the front office were more directly responsible than Deron for 100% of last year's Jazz free agents receiving ridiculous contracts from other teams.

"Not sure if many people have noticed, but he's been one of the best guards in the league so far."
Trust me, everyone has noticed. It's safe to say DRose and Westbrook have been the most surprising PGs thus far. We knew Rondo could pass, we knew Deron/CP3 would put up monster numbers, but DRose and Westbrook are leading their teams (sorry Durant) to victories...I definitely agree with you that Westbrook is playing like an elite PG

"Regarding Rondo, yes he's an otherworldly passer, honestly one of the best I've seen. But the fact is he has GLARING holes in his game, that much is obvious. To put him and Deron over Paul is laughable."
Rondo has already proven to be one of the best passers in NBA history...he has successfully managed some of the biggest egos/personalities to ever play basketball (ask the Glove how he enjoyed his stint with the Lakers), is already the best Celtic PG ever, is arguably the best defender at the 1 position since Gary Payton, and makes clutch plays. To discount him just because he has a broke jumper is laughable. Ask last year's Cavs or Magic if they'd rather have played Rondo or Deron in the playoffs. Rondo makes that team go and to say he's not part of the elite PG discussion is foolish.

Cliffnotes: Deron is slightly better than CP3 (not as clearcut or obvious as i.e. LeBron vs Melo), Rondo is underrated by NT

Not sure where to begin with this, once again you based all your counterpoints purely on your own opinions. I like how you ignored my more pertinent assertions as well, i.e he's a better shooter (fg% from everywhere), better rebounder (rebound rate), assist to turnover rate, and assist ratio, which you dismissed by saying some players' numbers inflate their actual talent and referenced Odom and Jamison in doing so. Really?? As Ed Lover would say, "C'mon Son." Those numbers are a measure of a player's impact on the game a.k.a the player's value. If one player has a bigger impact than suffice to say he has more value and is a better player. Period.

And while I said Deron is a better on ball defender, I gave the edge to Paul in help defense, while noting neither one is particularly great. So that's a wash. As far as leadership goes, I wouldn't know and neither would you, unless you're employed by the Jazz or something.

As far as the team stuff goes, I'd say I don't hold much stock in it. This is because there are five men on the court at all times and everyone from the coach to opponent scouts have an effect on wins and losses. But to satisfy your need to get into it, I'll say that New Orleans has had a better record two of the past three years. And last year when they didn't Paul was injured intermittently throughout. And they'll probably have a better record this year too.

And when did I say Rondo wasn't an elite point guard? I said he has holes in his game that are significant enough to preclude him from being mentioned in the same category as Paul. And if you don't think mid range shooting, outside shooting, and free throw shooting are important for a guard to have I don't know what to tell you.

So in conclusion the only thing relevant you've said that supports your argument that Deron is better than Paul is that he outperforms him statistically when they go head to head. And I agree, if the Jazz played the Hornets 82 times a year Deron would probably be the better point guard. But they don't, he isn't, and once again you are wrong.

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Not sure where to begin with this, once again you based all your counterpoints purely on your own opinions. I like how you ignored my more pertinent assertions as well, i.e he's a better shooter (fg% from everywhere), better rebounder (rebound rate), assist to turnover rate, and assist ratio, which you dismissed by saying some players' numbers inflate their actual talent and referenced Odom and Jamison in doing so. Really?? As Ed Lover would say, "C'mon Son." Those numbers are a measure of a player's impact on the game a.k.a the player's value. If one player has a bigger impact than suffice to say he has more value and is a better player. Period.

And while I said Deron is a better on ball defender, I gave the edge to Paul in help defense, while noting neither one is particularly great. So that's a wash. As far as leadership goes, I wouldn't know and neither would you, unless you're employed by the Jazz or something.

As far as the team stuff goes, I'd say I don't hold much stock in it. This is because there are five men on the court at all times and everyone from the coach to opponent scouts have an effect on wins and losses. But to satisfy your need to get into it, I'll say that New Orleans has had a better record two of the past three years. And last year when they didn't Paul was injured intermittently throughout. And they'll probably have a better record this year too.

And when did I say Rondo wasn't an elite point guard? I said he has holes in his game that are significant enough to preclude him from being mentioned in the same category as Paul. And if you don't think mid range shooting, outside shooting, and free throw shooting are important for a guard to have I don't know what to tell you.

So in conclusion the only thing relevant you've said that supports your argument that Deron is better than Paul is that he outperforms him statistically when they go head to head. And I agree, if the Jazz played the Hornets 82 times a year Deron would probably be the better point guard. But they don't, he isn't, and once again you are wrong.


"he's a better shooter (fg% from everywhere)"
#s dont tell the whole story. Theres a reason why Bill Simmons is a writer because he actually believes LeBron is more clutch than Kobe. FG% doesn't tell the whole story: the defense being played, the game situation, etc.

"Those numbers are a measure of a player's impact on the game a.k.a the player's value. If one player has a bigger impact than suffice to say he has more value and is a better player. Period."
Again with the #s. If you can watch a Hornets game and then a Jazz game and say CP3 is clearly the better PG, then you must either be part of CP3s entourage or CP3s mom. What were your thoughts on Darren Collison putting up gaudy #s in CP3s absence last year? You know, since according to you, stats/#s = impact = value. Again, that's why I take stats into account but they definitely don't tell the whole story.

"And while I said Deron is a better on ball defender, I gave the edge to Paul in help defense, while noting neither one is particularly great. So that's a wash."
I agree, CP3's help defense is the reason why he's among the league leaders in steals. But Deron gives you more on the defensive end - size, can defend against guards that like to post up. Deron is stronger, versatile (his size allows him to defend 1s or 2s), and plays better defense. Don't let CP3's steals #s fool you (see Iverson's career steals #s) steals do not equal defense.

"And if you don't think mid range shooting, outside shooting, and free throw shooting are important for a guard to have I don't know what to tell you."
Rondo still dominates games...Shaq can't hit a free throw or an outside jumper, doesn't need to. If Shaq could shoot then he'd average 40 over his career, if Rondo could shoot then

...Doesn't take away from the fact that both Rondo and Shaq dominate their respective positions. My points to Rondo were less against your argument and more towards the general bashing that Rondo receives on this board.

"As far as leadership goes, I wouldn't know and neither would you, unless you're employed by the Jazz or something."
If you watched any Jazz games this year you would know. Comebacks, clutch plays, game winners, game changing defensive plays.

Good points otherwise, but I think you're not giving Deron enough credit. He has dominated CP3 since college (beating Chris Paul's #1 Wake Forest team). Statistically CP3 may have the slight edge but leadership, defense, and clutch plays aren't measured so it's always tough to argue against people from the Bill Simmons school of #s. I will say that your assertion that stats = impact = value is idiotic...there's a reason why players like Derek Fisher, James Posey, Robert Horry, etc will go down in history and players like Corey Magette, Antawn Jamison, etc will not. You, nor Bill Simmons, can put a number on clutchness. According to #s, Coach K should've called plays for LeBron or Wade in the Olympics against Spain...but we all know that Kobe had to save the day. Sometimes, you just can't rely on #s.

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Not sure where to begin with this, once again you based all your counterpoints purely on your own opinions. I like how you ignored my more pertinent assertions as well, i.e he's a better shooter (fg% from everywhere), better rebounder (rebound rate), assist to turnover rate, and assist ratio, which you dismissed by saying some players' numbers inflate their actual talent and referenced Odom and Jamison in doing so. Really?? As Ed Lover would say, "C'mon Son." Those numbers are a measure of a player's impact on the game a.k.a the player's value. If one player has a bigger impact than suffice to say he has more value and is a better player. Period.

And while I said Deron is a better on ball defender, I gave the edge to Paul in help defense, while noting neither one is particularly great. So that's a wash. As far as leadership goes, I wouldn't know and neither would you, unless you're employed by the Jazz or something.

As far as the team stuff goes, I'd say I don't hold much stock in it. This is because there are five men on the court at all times and everyone from the coach to opponent scouts have an effect on wins and losses. But to satisfy your need to get into it, I'll say that New Orleans has had a better record two of the past three years. And last year when they didn't Paul was injured intermittently throughout. And they'll probably have a better record this year too.

And when did I say Rondo wasn't an elite point guard? I said he has holes in his game that are significant enough to preclude him from being mentioned in the same category as Paul. And if you don't think mid range shooting, outside shooting, and free throw shooting are important for a guard to have I don't know what to tell you.

So in conclusion the only thing relevant you've said that supports your argument that Deron is better than Paul is that he outperforms him statistically when they go head to head. And I agree, if the Jazz played the Hornets 82 times a year Deron would probably be the better point guard. But they don't, he isn't, and once again you are wrong.


"he's a better shooter (fg% from everywhere)"
#s dont tell the whole story. Theres a reason why Bill Simmons is a writer because he actually believes LeBron is more clutch than Kobe. FG% doesn't tell the whole story: the defense being played, the game situation, etc.

"Those numbers are a measure of a player's impact on the game a.k.a the player's value. If one player has a bigger impact than suffice to say he has more value and is a better player. Period."
Again with the #s. If you can watch a Hornets game and then a Jazz game and say CP3 is clearly the better PG, then you must either be part of CP3s entourage or CP3s mom. What were your thoughts on Darren Collison putting up gaudy #s in CP3s absence last year? You know, since according to you, stats/#s = impact = value. Again, that's why I take stats into account but they definitely don't tell the whole story.

"And while I said Deron is a better on ball defender, I gave the edge to Paul in help defense, while noting neither one is particularly great. So that's a wash."
I agree, CP3's help defense is the reason why he's among the league leaders in steals. But Deron gives you more on the defensive end - size, can defend against guards that like to post up. Deron is stronger, versatile (his size allows him to defend 1s or 2s), and plays better defense. Don't let CP3's steals #s fool you (see Iverson's career steals #s) steals do not equal defense.

"And if you don't think mid range shooting, outside shooting, and free throw shooting are important for a guard to have I don't know what to tell you."
Rondo still dominates games...Shaq can't hit a free throw or an outside jumper, doesn't need to. If Shaq could shoot then he'd average 40 over his career, if Rondo could shoot then

...Doesn't take away from the fact that both Rondo and Shaq dominate their respective positions. My points to Rondo were less against your argument and more towards the general bashing that Rondo receives on this board.

"As far as leadership goes, I wouldn't know and neither would you, unless you're employed by the Jazz or something."
If you watched any Jazz games this year you would know. Comebacks, clutch plays, game winners, game changing defensive plays.

Good points otherwise, but I think you're not giving Deron enough credit. He has dominated CP3 since college (beating Chris Paul's #1 Wake Forest team). Statistically CP3 may have the slight edge but leadership, defense, and clutch plays aren't measured so it's always tough to argue against people from the Bill Simmons school of #s. I will say that your assertion that stats = impact = value is idiotic...there's a reason why players like Derek Fisher, James Posey, Robert Horry, etc will go down in history and players like Corey Magette, Antawn Jamison, etc will not. You, nor Bill Simmons, can put a number on clutchness. According to #s, Coach K should've called plays for LeBron or Wade in the Olympics against Spain...but we all know that Kobe had to save the day. Sometimes, you just can't rely on #s.

 

[abovelegit1]

You have yet to tell me one thing Deron does better than Chris Paul on a basketball court. Doesn't pass better, doesn't shoot better, doesn't rebound better, turns it over more. And they both play average defense, Paul is a better help defender, Deron on-ball. All you talk about is arbitrary crap like "leadership" and "clutchness." Well I've already told you two of the past three seasons the Hornets have had the better record, and last year when they didn't Paul had injuries throughout. So obviously Deron's wonderful "leadership" and "clutchness" didn't translate to more wins. You act like Chris Paul is some kind of team cancer of something. He's not a leader for his team? He doesn't make clutch plays? He does. They both do. So in order to evaluate who the better player is we look at their on court performance. Hence the numbers, which show Chris Paul's superiority in ever facet of the game and it's not even close. I'll take my numbers over your elementary and frivolous scouting any day. Just stop; you're clearly biased.

 

[abovelegit1]

You have yet to tell me one thing Deron does better than Chris Paul on a basketball court. Doesn't pass better, doesn't shoot better, doesn't rebound better, turns it over more. And they both play average defense, Paul is a better help defender, Deron on-ball. All you talk about is arbitrary crap like "leadership" and "clutchness." Well I've already told you two of the past three seasons the Hornets have had the better record, and last year when they didn't Paul had injuries throughout. So obviously Deron's wonderful "leadership" and "clutchness" didn't translate to more wins. You act like Chris Paul is some kind of team cancer of something. He's not a leader for his team? He doesn't make clutch plays? He does. They both do. So in order to evaluate who the better player is we look at their on court performance. Hence the numbers, which show Chris Paul's superiority in ever facet of the game and it's not even close. I'll take my numbers over your elementary and frivolous scouting any day. Just stop; you're clearly biased.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So if it's undefinable, unquantifiable, impossible to isolate or repeat, why the $!+@ are we supposed to take you word for it? So only people born with a special can determine who is a better shooter not simple FG%. Are you magic? Is it some creepy skill you were born with? Do your nipples get hard when some one is really a good shooter not some one who just makes high percentage of the shots he takes?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So if it's undefinable, unquantifiable, impossible to isolate or repeat, why the $!+@ are we supposed to take you word for it? So only people born with a special can determine who is a better shooter not simple FG%. Are you magic? Is it some creepy skill you were born with? Do your nipples get hard when some one is really a good shooter not some one who just makes high percentage of the shots he takes?

 

[aztec06jr]

Osh Kosh Bosh, there's a reason why we have scouts and not statisticians. Anyone can look at #s i.e. just looking at #s we can say Dwight is better than Pau, but any true basketball fan would say otherwise. Some players have "it" while some don't. I'm not saying CP3 doesn't have "it" I just think that, having watched both of their careers, Deron has more of "it." But yeah let's just go with #s, thats the reason players like Corey Magette are paid. Lol. It's the same reason why comparing Magic to CP3 or Kobe to MJ is useless if we're just basing it off #s.

I prefer Deron over CP3, like I prefer Rondo over Derrick Rose. It's just as easy to argue for the players I didn't pick, obviously. If preferences = biased then yes, I'm extremely biased.

And judging from your sig, you have a preference towards Canadian basketball. In this case, I would say that I prefer sleeping over watching Canadian basketball. Would most people agree with me? Yes. Do I have any justification? Yes, it's Canadian basketball

 

[aztec06jr]

Osh Kosh Bosh, there's a reason why we have scouts and not statisticians. Anyone can look at #s i.e. just looking at #s we can say Dwight is better than Pau, but any true basketball fan would say otherwise. Some players have "it" while some don't. I'm not saying CP3 doesn't have "it" I just think that, having watched both of their careers, Deron has more of "it." But yeah let's just go with #s, thats the reason players like Corey Magette are paid. Lol. It's the same reason why comparing Magic to CP3 or Kobe to MJ is useless if we're just basing it off #s.

I prefer Deron over CP3, like I prefer Rondo over Derrick Rose. It's just as easy to argue for the players I didn't pick, obviously. If preferences = biased then yes, I'm extremely biased.

And judging from your sig, you have a preference towards Canadian basketball. In this case, I would say that I prefer sleeping over watching Canadian basketball. Would most people agree with me? Yes. Do I have any justification? Yes, it's Canadian basketball

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

I'm extremely biased.

Yeah we know.

And FYI, NBA teams employ both, see Synergy Sports. And scouts use plenty of statistics, i.e. "Hey Kobe, statistically Tyreke is not effective going towards his left hand so overplay him right." As for the rest of your nonsense, basically you can't think of a response or one thing Deron does better than Paul so you decided to qualify a new catergory called "it." Good for you. Now take your L and exit the thread.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

I'm extremely biased.

Yeah we know.

And FYI, NBA teams employ both, see Synergy Sports. And scouts use plenty of statistics, i.e. "Hey Kobe, statistically Tyreke is not effective going towards his left hand so overplay him right." As for the rest of your nonsense, basically you can't think of a response or one thing Deron does better than Paul so you decided to qualify a new catergory called "it." Good for you. Now take your L and exit the thread.

 

[aztec06jr]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by aztec06jr

I'm extremely biased.

Yeah we know.

And FYI, NBA teams employ both, see Synergy Sports. And scouts use plenty of statistics, i.e. "Hey Kobe, statistically Tyreke is not effective going towards his left hand so overplay him right." As for the rest of your nonsense, basically you can't think of a response or one thing Deron does better than Paul so you decided to qualify a new catergory called "it." Good for you. Now take your L and exit the thread.

I respected you until you took that out of context. Whatever wins you points in front of your friends on NT, I guess.

I've stated several things that Deron does better...defense, shooting, clutch play, more wins, more Playoff series wins, better playoff #s, etc. In addition, he has owned CP3 head to head since college. There's obviously no arguing him being bigger, stronger, more durable.... Deron has equal if not better handles, has a better crossover, and always plays well against better teams. Deron is a bigger mismatch for most teams...not many PGs with his size, strength, skills. He's the complete PG, name 1 thing he doesn't do well?

Maybe since CP3 has received the accolades since day 1 it's kinda hard to see how Deron can come close but just remember, Deron was drafted higher (since you want to give Utah's front office so much praise do you think they made the right choice here?). Bill Simmons, arguably CP3s biggest rider, even said this about Deron last April: "I've got to say I think he's the best point guard."