- 28,099
- 9,226
I would. As far as complete games go, I really dont think its all that close. We'll see by the end of the season.
The Official NBA PG Thread
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by airmaxpenny1,
- Start date
- 4,325
- 10
Defensively, Westbrook > Rose.
And it's not even close.
And it's not even close.
- 4,325
- 10
Defensively, Westbrook > Rose.
And it's not even close.
And it's not even close.
It doesn't get better than Paul or Williams at the point in today's NBA.
The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in the association.
[h3]Question: Is Chris Paul or Deron Williams the NBA's best point guard?[/h3]
BROUSSARD: A few years ago, Chris Paul was viewed widely, though not unanimously, as the best point guard in the NBA. But after missing much of last season due to injury, he seemed to be a forgotten man, losing his unofficial crown. That slight has fueled CP3's comeback and, while it's still early, I believe he's regained his position as the best point guard in the league.
BUCHER: It's terrific to see CP3 back in form and making the New Orleans Hornets relevant again, especially after he, and they, looked so out of sync and shape in the preseason. He's certainly one of the top four point guards in the league again. But for all-around best point guard, I'm going to stick with Deron Williams.
CB: Whatever the order, I think Chris and Deron are definitely 1 and 1A. Not sure where you get top-4 from. That's ridiculous. So far this year, Chris is playing better than anyone -- at any position. He's the clear MVP so far. But obviously, it's too early for that, and this debate has to be career-long. I still take Chris by a hair and the stats back that up -- his career numbers top Deron's in PPG, APG, RPG, SPG, TOPG, FT% and FG%.
RB: A week in he's the MVP, but "it's too early" to talk about that? So why are you talking about it? And career stats? Why are we talking about those? This is about who the better point guard is right now, not who has had the better career. (Though I'd take Deron there, too.) Paul had better have the higher career stats because he's played his entire career in a system where he decides how long the ball is in his hands.
My first reason for taking Deron over Paul is one near and dear to your heart -- size. D-Will's got three inches in height and 35 pounds of muscle on Paul, not to mention better shooting range. He simply does more for his team because he doesn't require help on D or cross-matches.
CB: Size isn't a huge deal at PG unless you're talking about extremes. So kill that noise -- unless you'd take Chauncey Billups over Paul too. Didn't think so.
And the fact that you think Deron does more for his team than Paul is unbelievable. Actually, it's contradictory, since you said in the same breath that Paul's been in a system where "he decides how long the ball is in his hands." That's a lot more responsibility than having Jerry Sloan dictate everything. But I guess I should expect such strange logic from a guy who says not to talk about Paul's MVP-level play this season or about his career numbers. Which is it, dude?
RB: Nice try comparing a 34-year-old PG to a 25-year-old and dismissing the competitive advantage of three inches and 35 pounds. Billups, nevertheless, is a good example of the flaw in using stats alone to measure a PG. His numbers never have been gaudy -- 8.6 dimes is his career high -- because his size and the adjustments he forced didn't show up in his personal numbers, just the Detroit Pistons' record.
CB: By your own admission, Paul handles the ball more than Williams and yet he averages just 1.7 turnovers per game, compared to 4.0 for Williams. His league-leading assist-to-turnover ratio of 5.75 is absolutely sick and twice as good as Williams' 2.43. You criticize Paul's defense, yet he's a critical piece (the point of attack) of the fourth-best defense in the league. He keeps his man in front of him and he's also fifth in the league in steals (2.43 per game), as opposed to Williams, who's 73rd in the league.
RB: Nobody ever questioned that Paul is a great decision-maker and hence doesn't turn the ball over much. If he keeps playing like this, he should be an MVP candidate, but his numbers so far this season have come almost exclusively against other small PGs, which is why anointing him the league's best player after two weeks means you're just reading box scores, not actually watching games. (Besides, we should all recognize how hollow a regular-season MVP award is when it comes to measuring a player's overall excellence.) All that also overlooks the fact that Paul has a much better team around him than Williams does, which is a contributing factor to the latter's uptick in turnovers.
CB: "Reading the box scores?" How about reading the W-L record, a 7-0 start with five victories coming against playoff teams? And Chris had 18 points, seven dimes and seven boards against the bigger Billups this season and Dwyane Wade guarded him quite a bit when he put 13 points, 19 assists and five steals on Miami.
I'm not going to downplay anything Deron does because he's outstanding, but your previous statement that he does more for his team than Chris just doesn't stand up. Chris averages a higher percentage of his team's assists (43 percent versus 40 percent), a higher percentage of his team's rebounds (13 percent versus 12 percent) and a far higher percentage of his team's steals (30 percent versus 14 percent). Deron averages a greater percentage of his team's points (19 percent versus 18 percent), which some might argue isn't what you want from your point guard.
RB: What's happened to you? You've become the king of stats -- including W-L record -- without context. You thought Deron was the best PG in the game last season -- all season -- but now that Paul and New Orleans have had a hot two weeks, he's the best in the game again. I prefer looking at them through matchups and versatility and how teams and players actually function on the court.
CB: Most GMs would take Paul Millsap over David West, though that's a fairly close call. But Millsap's killing West in most significant stats (seven more PPG, four more RPG, more assists, more steals) and I'd argue he's a better defender. Al Jefferson has been a 20-10 guy twice in the past four seasons and shoots 50 percent for his career. Granted, it has been for losing teams and he's got some big flaws, but so does Emeka Okafor. Obviously, while Monty Williams is a great young coach, Sloan has the advantage there. At best, the supporting casts are a wash, but I would give the edge to Utah -- and I'm sure most basketball people would, too, especially when Mehmet Okur returns.
RB: West and Okafor are simply a better combo, offensively and defensively, than Millsap and Jefferson. Don't spit stats or past performance when the Jazz guys never played together before. Could you be any more reactionary? Millsap has had a couple of big games against soft PFs. Good for him. But Jefferson has struggled mightily at both ends, particularly catching the ball, be it a pass or rebound. Both he and Millsap have to play in the paint and are undersized for their positions. And Deron is now Utah's only 3-point threat and best perimeter defender with Wesley Matthews, Kyle Korver and Ronnie Brewer gone.
CB: You're alone -- very alone -- in saying Paul has a better supporting cast. In fact, when I said a few weeks ago that New Orleans would make the playoffs, you scoffed, arguing instead for the hapless Los Angeles Clippers. Utah was/is in everyone's top 5 Western Conference teams. Most didn't even pick New Orleans to make the playoffs this year.
RB: The Hornets have started better than anyone expected after the way they looked in training camp. But you're leaning very heavily on a 7-0 start. Deron is stronger and bigger, is nearly as quick, has more range, is a better defender and is nearly Paul's equal as a playmaker. I'm happy to see Paul working his wizardry again. But if I'm picking a PG who can dominate any matchup, particularly in the playoffs when the pace slows, Deron gives me advantages Paul doesn't. And Deron has proved it. Over time. Not two weeks.
It doesn't get better than Paul or Williams at the point in today's NBA.
The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in the association.
[h3]Question: Is Chris Paul or Deron Williams the NBA's best point guard?[/h3]
BROUSSARD: A few years ago, Chris Paul was viewed widely, though not unanimously, as the best point guard in the NBA. But after missing much of last season due to injury, he seemed to be a forgotten man, losing his unofficial crown. That slight has fueled CP3's comeback and, while it's still early, I believe he's regained his position as the best point guard in the league.
BUCHER: It's terrific to see CP3 back in form and making the New Orleans Hornets relevant again, especially after he, and they, looked so out of sync and shape in the preseason. He's certainly one of the top four point guards in the league again. But for all-around best point guard, I'm going to stick with Deron Williams.
CB: Whatever the order, I think Chris and Deron are definitely 1 and 1A. Not sure where you get top-4 from. That's ridiculous. So far this year, Chris is playing better than anyone -- at any position. He's the clear MVP so far. But obviously, it's too early for that, and this debate has to be career-long. I still take Chris by a hair and the stats back that up -- his career numbers top Deron's in PPG, APG, RPG, SPG, TOPG, FT% and FG%.
RB: A week in he's the MVP, but "it's too early" to talk about that? So why are you talking about it? And career stats? Why are we talking about those? This is about who the better point guard is right now, not who has had the better career. (Though I'd take Deron there, too.) Paul had better have the higher career stats because he's played his entire career in a system where he decides how long the ball is in his hands.
My first reason for taking Deron over Paul is one near and dear to your heart -- size. D-Will's got three inches in height and 35 pounds of muscle on Paul, not to mention better shooting range. He simply does more for his team because he doesn't require help on D or cross-matches.
CB: Size isn't a huge deal at PG unless you're talking about extremes. So kill that noise -- unless you'd take Chauncey Billups over Paul too. Didn't think so.
And the fact that you think Deron does more for his team than Paul is unbelievable. Actually, it's contradictory, since you said in the same breath that Paul's been in a system where "he decides how long the ball is in his hands." That's a lot more responsibility than having Jerry Sloan dictate everything. But I guess I should expect such strange logic from a guy who says not to talk about Paul's MVP-level play this season or about his career numbers. Which is it, dude?
RB: Nice try comparing a 34-year-old PG to a 25-year-old and dismissing the competitive advantage of three inches and 35 pounds. Billups, nevertheless, is a good example of the flaw in using stats alone to measure a PG. His numbers never have been gaudy -- 8.6 dimes is his career high -- because his size and the adjustments he forced didn't show up in his personal numbers, just the Detroit Pistons' record.
CB: By your own admission, Paul handles the ball more than Williams and yet he averages just 1.7 turnovers per game, compared to 4.0 for Williams. His league-leading assist-to-turnover ratio of 5.75 is absolutely sick and twice as good as Williams' 2.43. You criticize Paul's defense, yet he's a critical piece (the point of attack) of the fourth-best defense in the league. He keeps his man in front of him and he's also fifth in the league in steals (2.43 per game), as opposed to Williams, who's 73rd in the league.
RB: Nobody ever questioned that Paul is a great decision-maker and hence doesn't turn the ball over much. If he keeps playing like this, he should be an MVP candidate, but his numbers so far this season have come almost exclusively against other small PGs, which is why anointing him the league's best player after two weeks means you're just reading box scores, not actually watching games. (Besides, we should all recognize how hollow a regular-season MVP award is when it comes to measuring a player's overall excellence.) All that also overlooks the fact that Paul has a much better team around him than Williams does, which is a contributing factor to the latter's uptick in turnovers.
CB: "Reading the box scores?" How about reading the W-L record, a 7-0 start with five victories coming against playoff teams? And Chris had 18 points, seven dimes and seven boards against the bigger Billups this season and Dwyane Wade guarded him quite a bit when he put 13 points, 19 assists and five steals on Miami.
I'm not going to downplay anything Deron does because he's outstanding, but your previous statement that he does more for his team than Chris just doesn't stand up. Chris averages a higher percentage of his team's assists (43 percent versus 40 percent), a higher percentage of his team's rebounds (13 percent versus 12 percent) and a far higher percentage of his team's steals (30 percent versus 14 percent). Deron averages a greater percentage of his team's points (19 percent versus 18 percent), which some might argue isn't what you want from your point guard.
RB: What's happened to you? You've become the king of stats -- including W-L record -- without context. You thought Deron was the best PG in the game last season -- all season -- but now that Paul and New Orleans have had a hot two weeks, he's the best in the game again. I prefer looking at them through matchups and versatility and how teams and players actually function on the court.
CB: Most GMs would take Paul Millsap over David West, though that's a fairly close call. But Millsap's killing West in most significant stats (seven more PPG, four more RPG, more assists, more steals) and I'd argue he's a better defender. Al Jefferson has been a 20-10 guy twice in the past four seasons and shoots 50 percent for his career. Granted, it has been for losing teams and he's got some big flaws, but so does Emeka Okafor. Obviously, while Monty Williams is a great young coach, Sloan has the advantage there. At best, the supporting casts are a wash, but I would give the edge to Utah -- and I'm sure most basketball people would, too, especially when Mehmet Okur returns.
RB: West and Okafor are simply a better combo, offensively and defensively, than Millsap and Jefferson. Don't spit stats or past performance when the Jazz guys never played together before. Could you be any more reactionary? Millsap has had a couple of big games against soft PFs. Good for him. But Jefferson has struggled mightily at both ends, particularly catching the ball, be it a pass or rebound. Both he and Millsap have to play in the paint and are undersized for their positions. And Deron is now Utah's only 3-point threat and best perimeter defender with Wesley Matthews, Kyle Korver and Ronnie Brewer gone.
CB: You're alone -- very alone -- in saying Paul has a better supporting cast. In fact, when I said a few weeks ago that New Orleans would make the playoffs, you scoffed, arguing instead for the hapless Los Angeles Clippers. Utah was/is in everyone's top 5 Western Conference teams. Most didn't even pick New Orleans to make the playoffs this year.
RB: The Hornets have started better than anyone expected after the way they looked in training camp. But you're leaning very heavily on a 7-0 start. Deron is stronger and bigger, is nearly as quick, has more range, is a better defender and is nearly Paul's equal as a playmaker. I'm happy to see Paul working his wizardry again. But if I'm picking a PG who can dominate any matchup, particularly in the playoffs when the pace slows, Deron gives me advantages Paul doesn't. And Deron has proved it. Over time. Not two weeks.
- 6,599
- 439
Wasnt dissin Wall by any means, just an observation thats all....I couldve also mentioned Nash is avg 4.9 but i think he's earned the benefit of the doubt that by seasons end he'll be around 3 per game.
All i said was i'm not sure about his jumper and he needs to bring his to's down and i stand by both, its as if i said he was Bosh like and a bust after 8 games or a waste of a #1 pick or some $#!@.
Im not sure why you brought up D. Rose ive went on record about his mediocre playmaking ability, and in his defense his career avg is well below 5 per game. Hes def not a complete PG, your preaching to the choir on that one. There are 3 COMPLETE pg's in the leage Dwill, CP3, & Nash....
Thats my biggest problem with the new crop of pg's, they cant SHOOT..Westbrook = brick, D. Rose = mostly brick,Tyreke = usually brick , and Rondo = firehouse.
- 6,599
- 439
Wasnt dissin Wall by any means, just an observation thats all....I couldve also mentioned Nash is avg 4.9 but i think he's earned the benefit of the doubt that by seasons end he'll be around 3 per game.
All i said was i'm not sure about his jumper and he needs to bring his to's down and i stand by both, its as if i said he was Bosh like and a bust after 8 games or a waste of a #1 pick or some $#!@.
Im not sure why you brought up D. Rose ive went on record about his mediocre playmaking ability, and in his defense his career avg is well below 5 per game. Hes def not a complete PG, your preaching to the choir on that one. There are 3 COMPLETE pg's in the leage Dwill, CP3, & Nash....
Thats my biggest problem with the new crop of pg's, they cant SHOOT..Westbrook = brick, D. Rose = mostly brick,Tyreke = usually brick , and Rondo = firehouse.
- 17,324
- 3,608
Agreed, but Rose is still the better overall PG IMO.
For Rose to be as athletic and strong, his defense should be up to par with Westbrook. I'm sure he'll continue to get better though.
When was the last time we had a PG battle as close as Paul and Deron?
- 17,324
- 3,608
Agreed, but Rose is still the better overall PG IMO.
For Rose to be as athletic and strong, his defense should be up to par with Westbrook. I'm sure he'll continue to get better though.
When was the last time we had a PG battle as close as Paul and Deron?
- 11,315
- 57
people were mad when i INSISTED this last season
btw,
CURRY > Jennings
- 11,315
- 57
people were mad when i INSISTED this last season
btw,
CURRY > Jennings
- 4,318
- 7,446
i dont think tony parker is declining,its just that all these other young stars have passed him up
d williams
cp3
rondo
rose
westbrook
wall
when parker was winning rings the best pgs in the lig were
nash
billups
kidd
now we are seeing the new generation and tonys right in the middle
d williams
cp3
rondo
rose
westbrook
wall
when parker was winning rings the best pgs in the lig were
nash
billups
kidd
now we are seeing the new generation and tonys right in the middle
- 4,318
- 7,446
i dont think tony parker is declining,its just that all these other young stars have passed him up
d williams
cp3
rondo
rose
westbrook
wall
when parker was winning rings the best pgs in the lig were
nash
billups
kidd
now we are seeing the new generation and tonys right in the middle
d williams
cp3
rondo
rose
westbrook
wall
when parker was winning rings the best pgs in the lig were
nash
billups
kidd
now we are seeing the new generation and tonys right in the middle
- 17,676
- 24,081
- 17,676
- 24,081
- 4,325
- 10
That's what I'm saying. It seems like when people make their PG lists, Jennings finds a way on it, but Curry doesn't. Doesn't make sense to me.
- 4,325
- 10
That's what I'm saying. It seems like when people make their PG lists, Jennings finds a way on it, but Curry doesn't. Doesn't make sense to me.
- 17,324
- 3,608
Curry also seems to have more longevity. I don't see him declining as quickly as Jennings due to him not relying on athleticism, already a great shooter, etc.
- 17,324
- 3,608
Curry also seems to have more longevity. I don't see him declining as quickly as Jennings due to him not relying on athleticism, already a great shooter, etc.
- 20,575
- 10,584
The following players are 25 and under: CP3, D-Will, Rondo, Westbrook, Rose, Tyreke Evans, Steph Curry, Wall, Jennings
The NBA is going to be very fun to watch for a long time.
The NBA is going to be very fun to watch for a long time.
- 20,575
- 10,584
The following players are 25 and under: CP3, D-Will, Rondo, Westbrook, Rose, Tyreke Evans, Steph Curry, Wall, Jennings
The NBA is going to be very fun to watch for a long time.
The NBA is going to be very fun to watch for a long time.
- 2,737
- 10
It seems like the top4 is decided for the most part right now. Just depends on your preference for the last slot...
Personally, I don't see how you don't put Steph up there. He shoots better than any of the other PGs up there, his court vision is on par with the best of them...it's just his pick and roll defense is terrible. His on-ball defense isn't as bad as others would make it seem.
Personally, I don't see how you don't put Steph up there. He shoots better than any of the other PGs up there, his court vision is on par with the best of them...it's just his pick and roll defense is terrible. His on-ball defense isn't as bad as others would make it seem.
- 2,737
- 10
It seems like the top4 is decided for the most part right now. Just depends on your preference for the last slot...
Personally, I don't see how you don't put Steph up there. He shoots better than any of the other PGs up there, his court vision is on par with the best of them...it's just his pick and roll defense is terrible. His on-ball defense isn't as bad as others would make it seem.
Personally, I don't see how you don't put Steph up there. He shoots better than any of the other PGs up there, his court vision is on par with the best of them...it's just his pick and roll defense is terrible. His on-ball defense isn't as bad as others would make it seem.
- 1,543
- 10
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Understand that I have seen exactly zero minutes of Steph Curry this year, but... really? He deserves to be in the discussion right now? Like... RIGHT now?
Here are the guys I would pay to see.
Declining -OR- on their way downward:
- Steve Nash
- Jason Kidd
Rising:
- Tyreke Evans
- Jennings
- Dragic
Settled in and doing their thing right now:
- Westbrook
- CP3
- Rondo
- Deron
- Rose
- John Wall (that I needed an edit to add his name)
I've been crazy busy this NBA season so far, so I haven't been able to watch as many games as I normally would, and haven't been able to follow anywhere CLOSE to what I normally would... but how are Jameer Nelson and Brandon Roy looking? Tony Parker? Rockets' PG?
Ya he does belong right now. for real, i know your taking heat for this but check him out, youll like what you see
- 1,543
- 10
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Understand that I have seen exactly zero minutes of Steph Curry this year, but... really? He deserves to be in the discussion right now? Like... RIGHT now?
Here are the guys I would pay to see.
Declining -OR- on their way downward:
- Steve Nash
- Jason Kidd
Rising:
- Tyreke Evans
- Jennings
- Dragic
Settled in and doing their thing right now:
- Westbrook
- CP3
- Rondo
- Deron
- Rose
- John Wall (that I needed an edit to add his name)
I've been crazy busy this NBA season so far, so I haven't been able to watch as many games as I normally would, and haven't been able to follow anywhere CLOSE to what I normally would... but how are Jameer Nelson and Brandon Roy looking? Tony Parker? Rockets' PG?
Ya he does belong right now. for real, i know your taking heat for this but check him out, youll like what you see
