UN Security Council approves No Fly Zone in Libya Vol: Declaration of War

[julian wright]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

I don't understand why you guys find it so impossible to believe that more than 100,000 Iraqis have been killed. In all honesty, no one is even keeping serious count of how many Iraqis have been killed in the past 8 years. 

I think we're all agreeing that more than 100,000 have been killed. It's the 1,000,000 that people are not believing...

 

[rufiorufiorufio]

if you gus believe we should stay out of countries' business, then we should stop trade with foreign countries. forget a world economy. stop aiding japan. stop aiding anyone.

let's just "help" ourselves and forget the fact that their are other countries out there

smh at you guys analyzing this like its the nba season.

talking about how you guys know so much on some espn status. yall some trent dilfers for this.

 

[nighthawk9421]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

I swear to God I'm so out of the loop that I don't even know what the hell is going on. I barely watch the news, and when I do it's always some war propaganda with another Arab or Muslim country. This *!%+ is sickening man. For 10 years straight, millions of innocent Arab and Muslim lives have been lost for money, power, greed. Am I the only one who sits back and analyzes this realizing there's something greater happening that we don't know? Are some of us that dumb?

America wants to act like the mediator of this situation to protect innocent lives from be taken, but when Israel bombarded the Gaza Strip in 2008 and killed 1,500 innocent lives- no one said a damn thing.

It's sickening. It's exactly I will never vote in this country. I probably will never bear the American flag proudly in my lifetime, and it's because of reasons like this. Matter of fact, the next time I attend a sporting event, I'll probably turn my back when the sing the national anthem. I'm not supporting this *!%+, and that will be my way of showing it.

And if some of you don't like it, oh well. Sue me.

So why are u still in our country?

 

[wheredeydothatat]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

Originally Posted by WE GET MONEY

1,000,000

just stop posting Rashi

What's so funny? Is it hard to believe nearly 1,000,000 civilians have died since 2003?? The nerve of some of you people.

The NY times reported back in 2006 that 600,000+ civilian deaths had been recorded, and that was 2 years before Bush left office.

word?

 

[buggz05]

Originally Posted by rayray3thousand

odds that Libya is attacked?

Done for. Happening right now basically. Can't kill innocent people and children. Can't sit and watch it happen.

 

[gameover2]

Originally Posted by Rolaholic

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Dear Animal Thug and rashi,

Please stop posting. Forever.

Sincerely,
NT

Best post in a long time.

Anyway, once the bombs go dropping, another mofo is going down.

 

[sundoobie]

It's getting interesting...
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-world-libya-benghazi-20110320,0,2159253.story

French warplanes target Kadafi's forces

Reporting from Tripoli, Libya —— 
Jets from an international force launched missions over Libya on Saturday, hours after Moammar Kadafi dispatched troops, tanks and warplanes to the heart of the 5-week-old uprising against his rule in a decisive strike on the first city seized by rebels.

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by Gameover2

Originally Posted by Rolaholic

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Dear Animal Thug and rashi,

Please stop posting. Forever.

Sincerely,
NT

Best post in a long time.

Anyway, once the bombs go dropping, another mofo is going down.

Air power alone rarely wins anything. 
How long are we going to be committed to this "no-fly zone" ? Will we put troops on the ground as history tells us is inevitable (already happening according to some sources) ? How long are they going to stay ? Who exactly are the 'rebels' ? Who will have to protect the people guard the oil reserves. Are we going to start arming the rebels ? What role will we play in the new "democratic" government ? 

This is a pretty good and easy to follow read: http://thegentleawakening.ning.com/profiles/blogs/cia-black-ops

Nothing is as black and white as the media is making it seem. "Gaddafi = bad. Bomb bad guy = good." type of thinking 

 (for the record I'd murk Gaddafi with my bare hands if I got the chance, so I'm not exactly a fan of the guy).

and most importantly, when will we start with the no-fly zone/bombing campaign over Israel ?  

 

[hazeleyed honey]

This is why I am against this.

This was started as a "popular uprise" has now become more of a military intervention. I say this with the idea of common words being used, and how the perception of the "conflict" has as a result changed. Collective uprising vs. Military intervention.

There is now an intervention because some of the Western powers have strategic interests in Libya - energy and economic security - Libya's oil. The involvement makes it not a humanitarian issue anymore,and in civil wars where you pick sides, it can get quite messy. Whose side are we fighting for?Little is known about the Libyan rebels.Eastern Libya has been a strong radical Islamist base since the 70’s that has been quite anti-western and who Gaddafi was been able to supress. Who will take over if there is a power vacuum in a country's with such complex political dynamics and deep embedded divisions among tribes and clans? Lots of uncertainties.If this could be resolved within he Libyan tribes, or with regional assistance in negotiations, that would be more effective in my opinion.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

 

[tkthafm]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/01/dictators-britain-arms-trade-hypocrisy 

So much hypocrisy you can cut it with a knife. 

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

This is why I am against this.

This was started as a "popular uprise" has now become more of a military intervention. I say this with the idea of common words being used, and how the perception of the "conflict" has as a result changed. Collective uprising vs. Military intervention.

There is now an intervention because some of the Western powers have strategic interests in Libya - energy and economic security - Libya's oil. The involvement makes it not a humanitarian issue anymore,and in civil wars where you pick sides, it can get quite messy. Whose side are we fighting for?Little is known about the Libyan rebels.Eastern Libya has been a strong radical Islamist base since the 70’s that has been quite anti-western and who Gaddafi was been able to supress. Who will take over if there is a power vacuum in a country's with such complex political dynamics and deep embedded divisions among tribes and clans? Lots of uncertainties.If this could be resolved within he Libyan tribes, or with regional assistance in negotiations, that would be more effective in my opinion.

Great post. I agree that are still a lot of uncertainty even if Gadhafi is gone.  
But for now... with the rebels getting slaughtered in Benghazi.. international intervention is needed. I mean who doesn't want a peaceful resolution? However we all know this is all going to end in more deaths and tragedy... it's war after all. 

And regards to Libya's oil.... I mean yeah isn't that pretty obvious.  We all need oil.  I know I am not the only that is paying a grip these days to fill up my ride so I am not going to hide my opinions just to be politically correct.  It is what it is.  I want gas prices to come down and if it requires bombing the holy crap out of Gadhafi... I have zero objections. 

 

[Animal Thug]

Originally Posted by nighthawk9421

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

I swear to God I'm so out of the loop that I don't even know what the hell is going on. I barely watch the news, and when I do it's always some war propaganda with another Arab or Muslim country. This *!%+ is sickening man. For 10 years straight, millions of innocent Arab and Muslim lives have been lost for money, power, greed. Am I the only one who sits back and analyzes this realizing there's something greater happening that we don't know? Are some of us that dumb?

America wants to act like the mediator of this situation to protect innocent lives from be taken, but when Israel bombarded the Gaza Strip in 2008 and killed 1,500 innocent lives- no one said a damn thing.

It's sickening. It's exactly I will never vote in this country. I probably will never bear the American flag proudly in my lifetime, and it's because of reasons like this. Matter of fact, the next time I attend a sporting event, I'll probably turn my back when the sing the national anthem. I'm not supporting this *!%+, and that will be my way of showing it.

And if some of you don't like it, oh well. Sue me.

So why are u still in our country?

  
American born. American raised. I am what this country made me.

 

[tkthafm]

Regarding the Iraq casualties:

Here is a website estimating 900k killed and 1.6 million injured with links to many many many credible sources (btw I read through source 15 in its entirity and I'm actually amazed such an impressive study was done). All numbers are taken from the lowest estimates possible.

http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html#fn15

Based on this study [pdf], published in the British medical journal The Lancet in October 2006. The study's mid-point estimate was 654,965 deaths, and its high estimate was 942,636 deaths, but we have used the study lowest credible estimate, that at least 392,979 Iraqi civilians had been killed in the occupation, in addition to deaths expected from Iraq's normal death rate, through July 2006. U.S. authorities, including President Bush himself, have loudly complained that the study is based on "flawed methodology" and "pretty well discredited," but that's simply untrue. The study was conducted by Johns Hopkins University, and used standard, widely accepted, peer-reviewed scientific methodology — the same methodology used by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control to estimate deaths from disease outbreak anywhere in the world, the same method routinely trusted by the U.S. and U.K. when counting deaths from warfare, civil unrest, and various catastrophes anywhere in the world. Explained very briefly, Iraqi respondants in numerous randomly selected locations were asked about recent deaths in their households, and when family members were asked to show a death certificate, about 80% of the deaths they described could be so documented. Results from these interviews were extrapolated nationwide, in the same way political opinion polls extrapolate a few hundred interviews to reflect nationwide opinions. As stated above, we have used the study's lowest estimate of 392,979 deaths occurring over the first 40 months of occupation. We have then extended this rate of civilian deaths (9,824 deaths per month) over subsequent months of the occupation since the study was published.

So in regards to those who believe the 100k civilian casualty number, please stop posting.

Sincerely,

Reality.

 

[northmiamiboi]

all i wanna see is the gas prices to down back to 2 dollas

 

[kbweezy24]

Originally Posted by SunDOOBIE

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

This is why I am against this.

This was started as a "popular uprise" has now become more of a military intervention. I say this with the idea of common words being used, and how the perception of the "conflict" has as a result changed. Collective uprising vs. Military intervention.

There is now an intervention because some of the Western powers have strategic interests in Libya - energy and economic security - Libya's oil. The involvement makes it not a humanitarian issue anymore,and in civil wars where you pick sides, it can get quite messy. Whose side are we fighting for?Little is known about the Libyan rebels.Eastern Libya has been a strong radical Islamist base since the 70’s that has been quite anti-western and who Gaddafi was been able to supress. Who will take over if there is a power vacuum in a country's with such complex political dynamics and deep embedded divisions among tribes and clans? Lots of uncertainties.If this could be resolved within he Libyan tribes, or with regional assistance in negotiations, that would be more effective in my opinion.

Great post. I agree that are still a lot of uncertainty even if Gadhafi is gone.  
But for now... with the rebels getting slaughtered in Benghazi.. international intervention is needed. I mean who doesn't want a peaceful resolution? However we all know this is all going to end in more deaths and tragedy... it's war after all. 

And regards to Libya's oil.... I mean yeah isn't that pretty obvious.  We all need oil.  I know I am not the only that is paying a grip these days to fill up my ride so I am not going to hide my opinions just to be politically correct.  It is what it is.  I want gas prices to come down and if it requires bombing the holy crap out of Gadhafi... I have zero objections. 

It interesting that the US gets such a small percentage of oil from Libya. Don't quote me, but I think its around 2% of all the oil we import yearly. Libya sells oil mainly to european powers, possibly why we see france with such a strong stance in this conflict 

 

[teamjordan79]

Originally Posted by Gameover2

Originally Posted by Rolaholic

Originally Posted by an dee 51o

Dear Animal Thug and rashi,

Please stop posting. Forever.

Sincerely,
NT

Dont listen to this dude.  keep posting. If i wanted to hear prosaic mainstream thinking, I would turn the news on. 

Bottom line for me: If Libya had a legitimate revolution, it is now greatly undermined by outside intervention. 

 

[pacmagic2002]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

Originally Posted by nighthawk9421

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

I swear to God I'm so out of the loop that I don't even know what the hell is going on. I barely watch the news, and when I do it's always some war propaganda with another Arab or Muslim country. This *!%+ is sickening man. For 10 years straight, millions of innocent Arab and Muslim lives have been lost for money, power, greed. Am I the only one who sits back and analyzes this realizing there's something greater happening that we don't know? Are some of us that dumb?

America wants to act like the mediator of this situation to protect innocent lives from be taken, but when Israel bombarded the Gaza Strip in 2008 and killed 1,500 innocent lives- no one said a damn thing.

It's sickening. It's exactly I will never vote in this country. I probably will never bear the American flag proudly in my lifetime, and it's because of reasons like this. Matter of fact, the next time I attend a sporting event, I'll probably turn my back when the sing the national anthem. I'm not supporting this *!%+, and that will be my way of showing it.

And if some of you don't like it, oh well. Sue me.

So why are u still in our country?

  
American born. American raised. I am what this country made me.

Why do you keep saying AMERICAN and U.S.......when it was the UN that decided this would happen??   While we are part of the UN, we werent the sole decision makers (if we even had a hand in deciding to do it)

 

[too steez]

ehhhh they should of been dead a while ago.

 

[nighthawk9421]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

Originally Posted by nighthawk9421

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

I swear to God I'm so out of the loop that I don't even know what the hell is going on. I barely watch the news, and when I do it's always some war propaganda with another Arab or Muslim country. This *!%+ is sickening man. For 10 years straight, millions of innocent Arab and Muslim lives have been lost for money, power, greed. Am I the only one who sits back and analyzes this realizing there's something greater happening that we don't know? Are some of us that dumb?

America wants to act like the mediator of this situation to protect innocent lives from be taken, but when Israel bombarded the Gaza Strip in 2008 and killed 1,500 innocent lives- no one said a damn thing.

It's sickening. It's exactly I will never vote in this country. I probably will never bear the American flag proudly in my lifetime, and it's because of reasons like this. Matter of fact, the next time I attend a sporting event, I'll probably turn my back when the sing the national anthem. I'm not supporting this *!%+, and that will be my way of showing it.

And if some of you don't like it, oh well. Sue me.

So why are u still in our country?

  
American born. American raised. I am what this country made me.

What have you done to make this Country what it is? No one is stopping you from going elsewhere and stand for their anthem and what it stands for.

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by tkthafm


Regarding the Iraq casualties:

Here is a website estimating 900k killed and 1.6 million injured with links to many many many credible sources (btw I read through source 15 in its entirity and I'm actually amazed such an impressive study was done). All numbers are taken from the lowest estimates possible.

http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html#fn15

Based on this study [pdf], published in the British medical journal The Lancet in October 2006. The study's mid-point estimate was 654,965 deaths, and its high estimate was 942,636 deaths, but we have used the study lowest credible estimate, that at least 392,979 Iraqi civilians had been killed in the occupation, in addition to deaths expected from Iraq's normal death rate, through July 2006. U.S. authorities, including President Bush himself, have loudly complained that the study is based on "flawed methodology" and "pretty well discredited," but that's simply untrue. The study was conducted by Johns Hopkins University, and used standard, widely accepted, peer-reviewed scientific methodology — the same methodology used by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control to estimate deaths from disease outbreak anywhere in the world, the same method routinely trusted by the U.S. and U.K. when counting deaths from warfare, civil unrest, and various catastrophes anywhere in the world. Explained very briefly, Iraqi respondants in numerous randomly selected locations were asked about recent deaths in their households, and when family members were asked to show a death certificate, about 80% of the deaths they described could be so documented. Results from these interviews were extrapolated nationwide, in the same way political opinion polls extrapolate a few hundred interviews to reflect nationwide opinions. As stated above, we have used the study's lowest estimate of 392,979 deaths occurring over the first 40 months of occupation. We have then extended this rate of civilian deaths (9,824 deaths per month) over subsequent months of the occupation since the study was published.

So in regards to those who believe the 100k civilian casualty number, please stop posting.

Sincerely,

Reality.

What you're positing is exactly what Rashi posted... British medical journal The Lancet in October 2006.
If you read what I posted, documented Feb 2010, to counter that study then you would understand why that report is flawed. 

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a921401057&fulltext=713240928

[h1]ETHICAL AND DATA-INTEGRITY PROBLEMS IN THE SECOND LANCET SURVEY OF MORTALITY IN IRAQ[/h1]

 

[likethematrix]

Gadafi wouldnt be doing this if saddam was still alive.

aside from all the bad he did, he had them +**%$* in check.

he was like the middle east suge knight

 

[tkthafm]

Ok, I see some complaints about disclosing the question forms, claims the data is not in line with other studies, and various arguments for potential fabrication. I don't see any real "fatal flaws" in methodology (the same used by the CDC) that would suddenly make the report invalid/unsuitable for reference. More like nitpicking because the data is unappealing/not in line with other studies 

 

[BANLEU]

Originally Posted by kbweezy24

Originally Posted by SunDOOBIE

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

This is why I am against this.

This was started as a "popular uprise" has now become more of a military intervention. I say this with the idea of common words being used, and how the perception of the "conflict" has as a result changed. Collective uprising vs. Military intervention.

There is now an intervention because some of the Western powers have strategic interests in Libya - energy and economic security - Libya's oil. The involvement makes it not a humanitarian issue anymore,and in civil wars where you pick sides, it can get quite messy. Whose side are we fighting for?Little is known about the Libyan rebels.Eastern Libya has been a strong radical Islamist base since the 70’s that has been quite anti-western and who Gaddafi was been able to supress. Who will take over if there is a power vacuum in a country's with such complex political dynamics and deep embedded divisions among tribes and clans? Lots of uncertainties.If this could be resolved within he Libyan tribes, or with regional assistance in negotiations, that would be more effective in my opinion.

Great post. I agree that are still a lot of uncertainty even if Gadhafi is gone.  
But for now... with the rebels getting slaughtered in Benghazi.. international intervention is needed. I mean who doesn't want a peaceful resolution? However we all know this is all going to end in more deaths and tragedy... it's war after all. 

And regards to Libya's oil.... I mean yeah isn't that pretty obvious.  We all need oil.  I know I am not the only that is paying a grip these days to fill up my ride so I am not going to hide my opinions just to be politically correct.  It is what it is.  I want gas prices to come down and if it requires bombing the holy crap out of Gadhafi... I have zero objections. 

It interesting that the US gets such a small percentage of oil from Libya. Don't quote me, but I think its around 2% of all the oil we import yearly. Libya sells oil mainly to european powers, possibly why we see france with such a strong stance in this conflict 

Kbweezy in case you didn't know the oil market is global, so although we only get a small percentage of oil from Libya, when there is fear in the market over supply it affects us as well. Look at it this way, if Libya oil production falls, than other countries are going to have to get it from somewhere else right? Therefore, the countries that we rely on for oil will have a greater demand and whether or not they can meet that demand with increase productions will determine how high prices go. 

Anyway I disagree that the intervention is going to undermine the Libyan uprising because the protestors are so disadvantaged against the Libyan government that attacks on the protestors are essentially war crimes. Therefore, the international community should definitely step in before more war crimes occur. Sure you could argue that the primary motive for intervention is oil, but what's so wrong with knocking out two birds with one stone? Clearly if the issue did not have such a great affect on the international community we would have seen some objections from some country's. But the fact that no country used their veto power to stop the sanction is a pretty powerful statement in itself because it's in everyone's best interest to see this come to an end or at least return to a peaceful state.

Additionally, I don't buy the arguement that we are encroaching on Libya's sovereignty because they lost that sovereignty when they became an illegitimate government. Sure they don't adhere to social contract theory like many current democracies, but at the very least a government is supposed to gaurantee certain rights to their people and I think one of those rights is freedom to not getting murdered.

 

[Animal Thug]

Why do you keep saying AMERICAN and U.S.......when it was the UN that decided this would happen??  

Let's not act like we don't have our hands in places we shouldn't have them in. Look, I'm all for peace - what bothers me the most about these military strikes and operations is the deaths of civilians will eventually surface after this whole ordeal. But if the UN wants to state that the reasoning's behind this attack is to protect the people of Libya - than we need to also confront and attack Darfur - which has suffered since 2003. I don't firmly believe that the reasoning behind these military strikes is to protect the people of Libya - but more for the sake of the oil fields - which is the 9th largest in the world.

This is about a fight for power.

What have you done to make this Country what it is? No one is stopping you from going elsewhere and stand for their anthem and what it stands for.



Ironically, this is as ignorant as it gets. And with that being said - I'll say this and never come back into this thread: You can kiss my New York City-born %!*. This is my country.