2014-15 Official Lakers Season Thread, Vol: We Love Each Other

[essential1]

I hate all of you.

 

[sea manup]

 

Lin, Felton, Nash, Marshall, its a PG system thing.

So it IS because of the coach?

So Blake and Deandre COULD be improving because of Doc and his whole "Just one more win than VDN

"?

 

linsanity would have never happened if the knicks were running the triangle

doesnt mean dantoni's offense > phil, or phil's offense > dantoni, just that dantoni's offense results in big PG stats

this years top 3 assist leaders: cp3 10.7 john wall 8.8 ty lawson 8.8

kendall marshall had 8.8 but didnt play enough to qualify, thats our no name didnt have a job to start the season PG 2nd in the league in assists

thats what dantoni will do for your team

but theres also jordan hill not playing as much, also what happens when dantoni coaches your team bigs wont get their shine (unless they are great at the PnR)

dwight's bad season last year was part dantoni, part dwights personal problems

same with pau

dantoni, will give you a high production PG and low production post players. nothing wrong with that kind of basketball as long as you build around the system accordingly (for example not trading for shaq)

del negro got all the blame last year, but 56 is a lot of wins and the clippers had a great season. doc comes in, blake and deandre improve because they get more touches and playing time the team is considered a better team than last year. no real difference in season record, not going to win a championship this year.

so yes, doc did have a hand in both those guys improvements. but is the TEAM actually that much better? maybe by a little, like dantoni has his pg/post player production tradeoff, blake and deandre had better years but the clippers went from 4th in opponent PPG to 14th. yeah blake and deandre have huge years but your defense takes a step back, resulting in your team only being slightly better than last year

so its not look at what doc is doing to the clippers, good, good, good! there always is a trade off.

just like when people complain about hill or kaman not getting minutes, kendall marshall had a great season. of course you can say its better to have post players than a high APG pg (i agree with this), but dont call out dantoni on being an idiot for not playing post players, he knows the trade off and would rather the PG do well.

a good example of this is the rockets, dwight for some reason hates pick and rolls so mchale is left with choosing between letting harden harden or feeding dwight in the post. rockets are clearly the more talented team, they just cant seem to figure anything out while having players make dumb play after dumb play when the game is on the line.

 

[essential1]

How about this...

Just rank current head coaches up to MDA for all parties involved and then we can end this conversation/ debate/ **** show

 

[grandtheftbike]

McDermott

 

[sea manup]

Steve Blake

 

[CP1708]

Mamba, are you trying to say Sarver was NOT cheap?

Tell me you aren't implying that, please.

Uh yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Do you have any figures to prove otherwise? Cause I can't find any. He spent what the other successful teams spent during that period, top 10 in league salary. He spent very comparably to Dr. Buss on personnneI. don't know what your definition of cheap is? Donald Sterling was cheap. He gave MDA plenty, I'm not going to detail it again.

You asked brother.

Phoenix Suns: Does Robert Sarver Deserve So Much Hate?

Ask any Phoenix Suns fan how he or she feels about owner Robert Sarver, and you're likely to get zero positive feedback.


Fans dislike the man so much, they organized a Facebook group back in 2007 entitled, "Suns Fans Unite to Buy Out Robert Sarver."

While virtually impossible to achieve, it shows the level of distaste that the Phoenix faithful have for Sarver. His business-first background doesn't endear him to fans who (incorrectly) believe he should spend as much as it takes to win the NBA championship.


Does Sarver deserve all the hate?

THE BEGINNING

When Sarver took over on July 1, 2004, for Jerry Colangelo, the Suns had just come off of a horrible 29-53 season. Despite having Stephon Marbury, Amar'e Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson and Anfernee Hardaway, the team just didn't jell and needed change.


The Suns unloaded Hardaway, Marbury and Tom Gugliotta in an effort to shed salary in two separate trades during the 2003-04 season. The value they got in return could have been something, but we'll talk about draft picks later on.

The Suns scored the No. 7 pick in the 2004 NBA draft and took Luol Deng. They then traded Deng away in a move that would become very commonplace (note: Sarver officially took over after the draft was over).

The first transaction to officially happen under Sarver's reign was a major positive, as the Suns signed Steve Nash as a free agent. The new era of Suns basketball was set to begin.

A TERRIFIC START

Sarver put the perfect point guard together with a group of athletic players and a coach who was the perfect fit. After going 62-20 and losing in the conference finals to the San Antonio Spurs, the Sarver era seemed like it was going to be a huge smash.


After averaging 110.4 points per game to lead the league, the Suns knew they had a terrific opportunity to make a run at the NBA championship. They also realized they needed some interior help if they were to beat teams like the Spurs or Los Angeles Lakers.

In the 2005 NBA draft, the Suns selected Nate Robinson No. 21 overall and Marcin Gortat No. 57 overall. Then, they traded them both away and the only real value they got back was Kurt Thomas. So much for the quality big man they needed.

LET'S JUST BE GOOD INSTEAD OF WIN A TITLE

The decision to trade Joe Johnson during the summer of 2005 for Boris Diaw and two first-round picks could have worked out. Yes, Johnson was a key contributor that looked to be taking the next step toward being a star, but the Suns needed frontcourt help and now had more assets to work with.

After another conference finals appearance and another defeat, the Suns drafted Rajon Rondo at No. 21 and Sergio Rodriguez No. 27 overall in the 2006 NBA draft. Wait, no big man? Nobody to guard Tim Duncan?

Then, you guessed it. Sarver and company traded Rondo for a first-round pick and sold Rodriguez. The Suns didn't keep Johnson for salary reasons, and then didn't use their assets to improve the team.

In 2007, the Suns drafted Rudy Fernandez No. 24 overall before trading him for ... cash.

When teams like the Spurs were stashing talent overseas, the Suns were keeping an eye on the bottom line. This was a catastrophe, as the Suns could have continued to build or at the very least protect their future.


SHAQ WILL SAVE US

Sarver and his management team learned from their previous mistakes. They figured out they couldn't pull big men out of the bargain bin and expect them to perform at a high level. So, they went out and got a surefire Hall of Fame center -- who was 35 years old.

Don't get me wrong, Shaquille O'Neal could still dominate from time to time. Unfortunately, those times were few and far between. He didn't fit the system well and although he was a fan-favorite, he wasn't (and never was) the answer. The Suns would trade him for Sasha Pavlovic, Ben Wallace a second-round pick and.more cash.

ONE LAST RUN

The 2009-10 Suns were the third team in the Sarver era to make the conference finals. They were led by 35-year-old Nash and still didn't have a real center (sorry, Robin Lopez). Even though the Suns knew they needed one extra piece, Sarver and company balked at going over the cap.

It's as if they were happy with winning a lot during the regular season but wouldn't trade profit for championship. Sounds like a businessman running an NBA team, doesn't it?


WASTED POTENTIAL (BUT NOT PROFIT)

The Suns didn't waste the prime years of Steve Nash as some would have you believe. He did win back-to-back MVP Awards. The Suns did win 62, 54, 61, 55, 46 and 54 games over their six-year run. It was an exciting (but frustrating) time to be a Suns fan.

Would a better owner (and management team) have brought a championship to the valley? Absolutely. Poor drafting and a business-first model caused the Suns to miss out on their opportunity. Who is responsible for all of that? The man who signs the checks, Mr. Robert Sarver. He's a nice and philanthropic man, but he deserves all of the blame for this one.


Michael Dunlap is an NBA credentialed writer who covers Phoenix Suns practices and games

ESPN writer and basketball analyst Bill Simmons has taken aim again at Phoenix Suns managing Robert Sarver.

Simmons took to Twitter this week (@BillSimmons) to discuss rumors the Suns could hire Charles Barkley as general manager after the exit of GM Lance Blanks.

But the real news was Simmons talking about Suns ownership.

Simmons said the Suns could be worth as much as $600 million if Sarver wants to sell the team in the near future. A group led by Sarver, a banker and real estate investor, bought the Phoenix team from Jerry Colangelo for $401 million.

Forbes magazine pegged the Suns as worth $474 million earlier this year. That is 13th in the NBA.

Simmons — who has been critical of Sarver’s management of the Suns — said the NBA could try to find a new ownership group that could pay even more for the Suns. If the Suns do fetch $600 million, that would mean a roughly $200 million profit for Sarver and his partners including Valley businessman Sam Garvin.

“Phoenix is a valuable market with great fans - the current owner has destroyed basketball there. Suns would fetch 600+ mill on open market,” said Simmons on Twitter.

The ESPN analyst has been critical of Sarver before over spending and his supposed hard-line stance during the lockout in 2011. Former Suns and now Los Angeles Lakers guard Steve Nash retweeted Simmons criticisms of Sarver during the lockout.

The Suns had a 25-57 record this season and finished last in the Western Conference and 35 games behind the first place Oklahoma City Thunder. The Suns have missed the NBA playoffs three straight seasons.

They have made the playoffs five of Sarver’s nine seasons as the Suns managing partner but only once in the last five.

The Suns did not respond to a request for comment on Simmons.

Simmons argues Time Warner-owned TNT would try keep Barkley in his National Basketball Association analyst chair and the league itself likes the former player as a public face.

“Barkley is a big asset/ambassador for NBA, they don’t want him wasting 4 yrs w/ a lousy owner in a no-win situation,” Simmons said on Twitter. “3 probs: Barkley makes big TV $$$ (Sarver = cheap); Barkley is Turner’s most valuable asset by far (sorry Conan); and NBA loves Barkley,” the ESPN writer said in another Tweet.

Barkley has a house in Scottsdale and there have been a number of former players who have transitioned between the television booth and coaching and general manager positions. That list includes TNT analyst and former Suns GM Steve Kerr, Golden State Warriors coach and former ESPN analyst Mark Jackson and Scottsdale resident and now former Philadelphia 76ers coach Doug Collins.

Two times Sarver has delivered blunders after promising Suns playoff runs, seasons that gave hope to fans of the title-starved franchise but ultimately led to a messier future.

We all remember the 2004-2005 Phoenix Suns, who won 62 games and reached the Western Conference Finals for the first time since 1993. That was in essence the perfect team to own. The Suns were young enough to remain competitive in the league for the next five or so years, and only needed minor changes to bring hope for the following season.

At that point, they pretty much had perfect harmony among the team, the coaching staff and the front office.

Yet Sarver decided to mess it all up.

First, Sarver effectively forced out general manager Bryan Colangelo, who was essentially the mastermind of the franchise's renaissance. Colangelo had hired D'Antoni and convinced Steve Nash to join the Suns and lead the team. He was the last link to the past of the Suns, under his father Jerry Colangelo, and the present and future under Sarver.

However, Sarver's insistence that Colangelo take a significant pay cut damaged the relationship between the two and ultimately drove Colangelo out of town to Toronto early in the following season.

Courtside is too close for an NBA owner. Robert Sarver needs to back off. And if he can't afford the Suns, he needs to sell the team.

The drama is becoming ridiculous.


This is not to pick at old wounds, how the Suns owner once incensed Joe Johnson, how he wanted to low-ball Alvin Gentry, or how he asked Grant Hill to take a pay cut after playing 82 games for the first time in his life.

This is about repeating mistakes.

This is calling the same running play four consecutive times on the goal line and wondering why you can't score a touchdown.

In 2005-06, the Suns had remarkable chemistry. They reached the Western Conference finals without Amar'e Stoudemire. They were two wins from the NBA Finals and had found perfect working harmony between front office and locker room.

Then Sarver ushered out Bryan Colangelo, breaking the special bond he shared with Mike D'Antoni.

On the brink of a championship, the Suns coughed up a hairball.

Now: Same thing. Two wins from the NBA Finals, Sarver had a special team with great camaraderie. He had the perfect synergy between general manager and coach, and once again, it didn't seem to carry much value.

As the season progressed, Sarver yearned for one playoff series in Phoenix, guaranteeing a minimum of two home playoff games. He received eight home dates. The postseason run generated an estimated $10.5 million of additional revenue and restored all the good will lost during the Shaquille O'Neal/Terry Porter debacle. So how could this happen?

Until the culture of working under Sarver became too much: too much stress, too many battles over money, too much owner interference.

Don't believe the spin, or Kerr's sudden desire to be with his family. He had the perfect setup in Phoenix. He was actively negotiating an extension, and publicly thanking Gentry for making it all happen. And he's not the type to pass up shots at winning an NBA championship. Just ask Michael Jordan.

In the short term, Sarver will feel the brunt of public perception. A Stoudemire departure would further move the team in reverse, confirming Sarver (a) doesn't believe in the team he just sold you; (b) doesn't have the money to compete at a championship level; or (c) his appetite for a championship goes only so far. And on a current media tour, disgraced referee Tim Donaghy claimed that league officials still respond negatively to Sarver's omnipresence at games.

"No doubt about it," Donaghy said. "He's obviously a very vocal, animated individual. And he really got into the games. He certainly screamed and yelled at the referees every opportunity he got, especially during timeouts, in an extreme and animated way. And there's no doubt and no secret among referees that a couple went out of their way to stick it to him."

OK, we'll consider the source on that one. But too many easy-going men have thrown up their hands and bolted Sarver's employ. He has blown through three coaches and three general managers in six years. The culture of ownership clearly is a problem, and why Sarver needs to fade into the background, giving his staff necessary room to breathe and funds to operate.

Alas, he has done exactly what he swore he wouldn't, which is loitering around the basketball team, making basketball decisions. That must change moving forward. For everyone's good.

Robert Sarver's cheap *** is single handedly destroying the Phoenix Suns

Let's list the cost cutting moves he has done in recent years shall we?

- Passing on signing Joe Johnson for $50 million when he was offering $45 million. Nash-Johnson-Marion-Stoudemire would've been the core to challenge for a title for at least six or seven years.

- Trading the 21st pick in the 2006 draft, which turned out to be Rajon Rondo, and Brian Grant's salary to Boston for the Cavs 2007 first round pick. They acquired the Rondo pick and cash from the Bulls for the Number 7 pick in the 2004 draft which turned out to be Luol Deng. All of these moves were to save money. They went from having a high pick in a loaded 2004 draft, to having Rondo, to trading Rondo to save money. Wonderful.

- Traded the rights to Rudy Fernandez to the Blazers for cash.

- Basically telling Bryan Colangelo (Winner of two NBA Executive of the Year awards in 2005 and 2007) to please leave to Canada.

- Picking up Alvin Gentry's option year instead of giving him the extension he deserves.

- Allowing VP David Griffin the expected replacement to Kerr to leave after 18 years in the organization.

- Asking Steve Kerr to take a paycut

- Letting Amar'e go with no intention of filling the void with anyone.

Suns managing partner Robert Sarver has taken relentless heat from the Phoenix fan base since buying the team from Jerry Colangelo in the spring of 2004.

He’s been criticized for making cost-cutting personnel moves that have played a big part in the Suns’ decline from a Western Conference powerhouse to a fringe playoff team. As the NBA lockout drags on, Sarver’s reputation is worsening by the day, this time on a league-wide level.

Over the last few months multiple reports, including this story from ESPN’s Chris Broussard, have pointed to Sarver as one of the most frugal members of the owners contingent. But none of that criticism was nearly as bad as what Yahoo! Sports NBA writer and lockout specialist Adrian Wojnarowski had to say about Sarver on Chuck and Vince Live on Wednesday morning:


“I think Sarver’s been the most difficult. He has been really the last couple years in this. I quoted an owner, an ownership source, the other day in a story that he talks so much and says so many outlandish things in these meetings, people tune him out. You know him in Phoenix. He can erode his credibility by just opening his mouth very often. While he is the hardest line of the hard-liners, he is not going to dictate where this goes. He led the charge on wanting the hard cap, on wanting to get rid of the mid-level exception, but at the end of the day, he is not a powerful voice in that room. He’s one of the last owners in.

2005 SUNS


Relevant Details: 62 wins, 110.4 points per game, 103.3 points allowed, .477 FG%, .393 3FG%, 2,026 3s attempted, lost in Western finals (San Antonio, six games).



Eight-Man Rotation: Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson (47.8% 3FG), Nash (43.1% 3FG), Quentin Richardson (38.9% 3FG), Leandro Barbosa (36.7% 3FG), Jimmy Jackson (45.9% 3FG), Steven Hunter.


Comments: That's the perfect S.S.O.L. team -- seven athletes and/or 3-point shooters and a Hall of Fame point guard running the show. This was the most "successful" (for lack of a better word) Suns team, falling to the future champion Spurs in a particularly tight series that could have played out differently if Joe Johnson hadn't fractured his eye socket in the previous round. You'd think they would have keep that nucleus together, right?


Unfortunately ...


Mistake No. 1: Re-read Marc Stein's post-mortem from August 2005 to properly refresh your memory about the Joe Johnson fiasco. That's right -- fiasco. Phoenix's relationship with Johnson deteriorated so badly that he directly asked Sarver not to match Atlanta's $70 million offer -- which he didn't -- leading to the devastating trade of Johnson for Boris Diaw and two future first-rounders. (Note: In that aforementioned "What If's" column, I partially excused the Suns because Johnson wanted to leave, forgetting how they drove him away until a few bitter Suns fans refreshed my memory.) They had just come within two wins of the NBA Finals and built an identity; now they were dealing a 24-year-old potential All-Star, the perfect swingman for their system, a deadly shooter who could even play backup point guard for them ... and only getting back a bench player and two future picks? Maybe that deal would have made sense for some teams, but they had just come within two wins of making the Finals! And how could they botch the Johnson thing so badly that he asked to leave? (Note: I asked these same questions three summers ago.) To borrow a modern example, this would be like the 2008 Hornets coming within two games of the NBA Finals while lowballing David West for the entire year, then trading him to Charlotte this summer for Jared Dudley and two No. 1s. Would they ever do that in a million years?



Here's what kills me about the Johnson trade: With Nash, Amare, Marion and Johnson, you're set for the rest of the decade. That's it. That's your core. That's your guarantee for 57-plus wins a year and a specific style that can work. Surround them with role players and veteran buyout guys and you're contending until Nash breaks down, and even then, you can just shift the offense over to Johnson as the main creator. HOW CAN YOU GIVE THAT GUY UP???? So what if he's insulted and doesn't want to come back? He'll get over it! You're paying him $14 million a year and he gets to play with Steve Nash! Arrrrrrrrgh.



2006 SUNS


Relevant Details: 54 wins, 108.4 points per game, 102.8 points allowed, .479 FG%, .399 3FG%, 2,097 3s attempted, lost in Western finals (Dallas, six games).



Eight-Man Rotation: Nash (43.9% 3FG), Marion, Diaw, Barbosa (44.4% 3FG), Raja Bell (44.2%) 3FG, Tim Thomas (42.9% 3FG), Eddie House (38.9% 3FG), James Jones (38.6% 3FG), Kurt Thomas, Stoudemire (injured).



Comments: Probably my favorite Suns team because of their 3-point shooting (40 percent on nearly 2,100 attempts?!?!?!?), the playing-bigger-than-we-are thing (inspiring), and the gritty way they responded after losing Amare for the season. Remember, this wasn't a strong year for the league -- Dallas was good, but not that good, and Miami ended up being the weakest champ of any team this decade. Switch Diaw for Johnson, give them Bell and Thomas, make Amare healthy and you're looking at the 2006 champs.



(Uh-oh, cue up the ominous "Behind the Music" music.)



But that summer, everything changed ...



Mistake No. 1: For financial reasons, they traded the No. 21 pick (Rajon Rondo) to Boston along with Brian Grant's contract (chopping $1.9 million from their 2007 payroll) for the rights to Cleveland's 2007 first-round pick. This was a double whammy because they acquired that Rondo pick two years before by giving up the No. 7 pick in the 2004 draft (for luxury tax reasons). So if you're scoring at home, they downgraded from "Luol Deng or Andre Iguodala in 2004" to "Rondo in 2006" to "selling the No. 24 pick in 2007 for cash" (we'll get to that in a second) ... which means that, effectively, they traded a No. 7 pick in a loaded draft for $4.9 million. Phoenix fans, you may now light yourselves on fire.



(What makes that one even more painful: Instead of signing Richardson before the 2004-05 season to a six-year, $42.6 million deal, they could have drafted Deng or Igoudala that summer and paid one of them two-fifths as much as Richardson over that same time frame. One year later, they swapped Richardson and the No. 21 pick in 2005 for Kurt Thomas, who they dumped on Seattle last summer along with two more No. 1's just to get him off their cap. As astounding as this sounds, Bryan Colangelo's decision to sign Richardson instead of drafting Deng or Iguodala -- which was dumb at the time, by the way -- ended up costing them a whopping FOUR FIRST-ROUND PICKS! Would you rather have Richardson, or would you rather have the No. 7 pick in 2004, the No. 21 pick in 2005, and your first-rounders in 2008 and 2010? Hold on, this gets better. Your 2005 NBA Executive of the Year? That's right, Mr. Bryan Colangelo! I love the NBA.)


Mistake No. 2: They sold the No. 27 pick to Portland (that ended up being Sergio Rodriguez). What's confusing is that they traded/sold those No. 1s for luxury tax reasons, and yet ...


Mistake No. 3: Two weeks later, they signed Marcus Banks to a five-year, $24 million deal to back up Nash. Marcus Banks!?!?!? Can you think of a worse guy for NashBall? He can't shoot 3s, he's a career loser, he's never won in college or the pros, it's unclear whether he'd ever accept a reduced role behind a two-time MVP ... let's get him! Why not just draft Rondo at 21 (or Marcus Williams, or Kyle Lowry, or Jordan Farmar) and develop him as a backup for one-fourth the price of Banks? Why not draft Rodriguez at No. 27 and hope he pans out for one-fifth the money?


(You're lucky I'm not a Suns fan -- I would have written 15 consecutive columns complaining about this paragraph alone. For the life of me, I will never figure out the appeal of Marcus Banks for $24 million. All they had to do was hit one freaking Celtics message board from the '05-'06 season and check one of the 35 "MARCUS BANKS SUCKS" threads. My god.)


Mistake No. 4: Giving Diaw a $45 million, five-year extension before waiting to see if he could co-exist with Amare. Just senseless. He would have been a restricted free agent in the summer of '07 -- why not wait a year and make him play for the contract? (In the biggest non-surprise of the '07 season, Diaw showed up for camp woefully out of shape, proving yet again that you can't trust the French.) Also, would you rather pay $14 million a year to Diaw and Banks or just give that money right to Joe Johnson, the quintessential swingman for the S.S.O.L. Era? I'm telling you, this was a Greek tragedy.



2007 SUNS


Relevant Details: 61 wins, 110.2 points per game, 102.9 points allowed, .494 FG%, .399 3FG%, 1,967 3s attempted, lost in Western semis (San Antonio, six games).



Nine-Man Rotation: Nash (45.5% 3FG), Marion, Stoudemire, Diaw, Barbosa (43.4% 3FG), Raja Bell (41.3%) 3FG, James Jones (37.8% 3FG), K. Thomas, Banks.


Comments: Let the record show that the S.S.O.L. Era peaked in January -- I even commemorated the moment with 3,500 words of critical acclaim -- before losing steam down the stretch and eventually falling to the Spurs for three reasons: The Suns couldn't defend Duncan (no surprise); Nash and Marion had worn down from extended seasons in '05, '06 and '07 (279 games for Nash, 290 games for Marion); and they caught a bad break with the Stoudemire/Diaw suspensions for Game 5.


More importantly, this was the season when the Suns entered "no-man's land" stylistically -- they couldn't get stops against a really good team, but they couldn't sustain a breakneck pace for eight months anymore because Nash and Marion were getting older and they didn't have a decent backup point guard (or any young legs, for that matter). Even their one chance to acquire an elite rookie backfired: Heading into the 2007 lottery, they owned the rights to Atlanta's pick but it was top-three protected ... and Atlanta ended up drawing the No. 3 pick. Had they gotten No. 4 or No. 5, potentially, they could have packaged that pick with Marion and Thomas for Kevin Garnett or drafted a blue-chipper as bait for Pau Gasol during the season. Nope. Instead, it was a Spaulding Smails draft: they got nothing and liked it.


But hey, even with the window closing for the S.S.O.L. Era, there was still time for two more crucial mistakes.


Mistake No. 1: Selling the No. 24 pick (Rudy Fernandez) for $3 million to Portland. Of everything Sarver inflicted on the Phoenix fans since 2004, this may have been the biggest slap in the face. You can't play the luxury tax card with Fernandez because he wasn't planning on joining the NBA until 2008 or 2009 at the earliest, so actually it would have been savvy if the Suns drafted him and stashed him in Europe for a year or two. Instead, Sarver basically announced to his fans, "Screw you, I'd rather have the $3 million, I'm taking the cash." Let the record show that, by all accounts, Fernandez would be a top-5 pick in this year's draft after lighting it up in Spain. Can you quantify the damage there? I say no.


Mistake No. 2: By dealing Thomas to Seattle along with two first-round picks (2008 and 2010), they saved about $8 million (plus another $8 million in luxury tax expenses) ... which would have been fine if Seattle didn't eventually waive him so he could get picked up by San Antonio, where he helped beat the Suns in the '08 playoffs and played crunch time in all five games. Even if it was a defensible trade financially, that's what happens when you cut off your nose to spite your face.

4. What if Suns owner Robert Sarver said, "Screw it, I'll pay the luxury tax every year?"

Well, the following three things would have definitely and unquestionably happened: The Suns would have used the No. 7 pick on either Luol Deng or Andre Igoudala in 2004 (instead of unloading that pick to Chicago for $3 million and the No. 21 pick in 2005); they would have used the No. 21 pick on Rajon Rondo in 2006 (instead of selling it to Boston for cash and the No. 27 pick in 2007); and they wouldn't have traded Kurt Thomas to Seattle along with their No. 1s in 2008 and 2010. Some people would throw in the Joe Johnson deal here (Johnson to Atlanta for Boris Diaw and two No. 1s), but that wasn't a luxury tax move; they made an effort to re-sign Johnson and he wanted to leave.

Just for the hell of it, let's give them Igoudala in that '04 draft because he's better than Deng, and they might have taken him anyway. And let's say they don't make the Shaq/Marion trade because they wouldn't have needed to dump Marcus Banks in the deal (they wouldn't have signed him if they had Rondo for one-fourth the price), and besides, they already have Kurt Thomas. Here's your 2008 Suns roster right now: Nash, Barbosa and Rondo as the guards; Igoudala, Hill and Bell at the swing spots; and Stoudemire, Marion, Diaw and Thomas up front ... as well as the rights to their No. 1 and Atlanta's No. 1 in this year's draft.

That's not even a pipe dream or an imagine-if-this-scenario-had-played-out roster. Lemme put this in caps for you, S.A.S.-style: PEOPLE, THAT WOULD BE PHOENIX'S ROSTER IF SARVER PAID THE LUXURY TAX ALL ALONG!!!!! Can you imagine? Is that the greatest 10-man rotation of all-time? Would they have won 75 games? We'll never know. What's tragic about the Suns' current situation is how close they came to being positioned for the short term and long term better than any franchise since the '86 Celtics: They would have been the runaway favorites this season, and they would have been set for an abnormally long time because of their young guys.

(Note to the Phoenix fans: You can now light yourselves on fire.)

So, you was sayin how Sarver isn't cheap?

How many more writers/articles do I need to find for you?

 

[CP1708]

And Mamba, I know that's a lot of text, but please, don't be ill informed. You just tried to sell me that Robert freaking Sarver wasn't cheap.

Maybe you think Sterling isn't racist too?


Sarver BEEN cheap dude. It's not a damn secret. Everybody knows. (well, almost everybody)

So here's your chance b. Read all that, absorb it, and now you will no longer make the mistake of saying that Sarver ain't a bull **** owner.

And maybe Mike, didn't get a fair shake as the head coach and was set up to fail, just as I have been saying all along.

 

[had pants]

 

[MVP]

I'm not ill informed and I'm not reading all that text. It's the same thing you've regurgitated over and over. Conjecture, opinions, and hypotheticals that if he would have done this, and that and kept this pick and that pick, blah, blah, blah. You've made your argument, I've made mine. Could he have done more, sure, but it wasn't like he didn't field a damn competitive team in the 1st place they won 62, 61, 54, and 55 games. A certain other incompetent coach did the same in Cleveland with an owner that didn't provide the pieces necessary and is seen as a buffon. You want it to be one way, but its the other way.

We'll never see eye to eye so just drop it at this point, I've wasted too much of my time already. I believe, MDA had enough and though the team may not have been perfectly constructed, neither were those others that made the Finals and won titles. He was good enough to get them to the doorstep, but not enough to get them over the hump. I don't believe that was a talent issue, but you do. Only thing that it will take is for him to finally get something here if the Buss' are stupid enough to retain him long term and continue to fail for you to see. Or he actually gets over the hump for me to see. No more wall o text from me. It's not worth it.

 

[CP1708]

"Show me where Sarver is known as cheap"

*Posts 7 different articles mentioning Sarver being cheap*


"I'm not reading all that"

 

[MVP]

Well if Sarver was cheap, so was Buss in the mid to late 2000s and Mitch never developed a bench and sold hella draft picks too.

I was never talking about transactions or hypothetical if he would have kept this person or that, cheap is not spending money on players or talent to put you in position to contend (ie having Smush, Luke, Chris Mihm as starters). Sarver did that, maybe not to the best he could but he did do that, otherwise they would have never been in the positions they were in the first place since Mike was so handicapped by the roster.

 

[CP1708]

Buss probably was cheap, but post Shaq trade, he had to pair down the roster, and rebuild it around Kobe.

They drafted Bynum and Farmar (C-PG) and then let them develop. They used Kobe and Odom, as well as Phil, to carry the heavy lifting, then brought in Fisher and Ariza before the Pau deal. It took them 3 years to go from Finals, to Finals. 3 years.


As I posted on the last page, with NUMEROUS examples, Sarver short changed his roster at every turn. But you won't read that, and call them hypotheticals.

You also claimed you rather have Sarver than Jim Buss.


Man, the Suns fans started a petition to get Sarver bought out in 2007. He bought the team in 2004. 3 years, his fanbase wanted to buy him out. I find it pretty damn offensive you in here tryin to tell me Sarver ain't so bad, not cheap, not his fault, etc etc, when his whole fanbase + multiple writers who follow the Suns or work for ESPN and Yahoo say the same damn thing.

That's flat out uninformed. No other way to slice it.

 

[MVP]

Buss probably was cheap, but post Shaq trade, he had to pair down the roster, and rebuild it around Kobe.

They drafted Bynum and Farmar (C-PG) Amare, Barbosa, and Diaw and then let them develop. They used Kobe and Odom Nash and Matrix, as well as Phil, to carry the heavy lifting, then brought in Fisher and Ariza Bell and Thomas before the Pau deal. It took them 3 years 1 year to go from Finals, to Finals the conference finals. 1 year.


As I posted on the last page, with NUMEROUS examples, Sarver short changed his roster at every turn. But you won't read that, and call them hypotheticals.

You also claimed you rather have Sarver than Jim Buss.


Man, the Suns fans started a petition to get Sarver bought out in 2007. He bought the team in 2004. 3 years, his fanbase wanted to buy him out. I find it pretty damn offensive you in here tryin to tell me Sarver ain't so bad, not cheap, not his fault, etc etc, when his whole fanbase + multiple writers who follow the Suns or work for ESPN and Yahoo say the same damn thing.

That's flat out uninformed. No other way to slice it.

But those same ESPN writers and whatever say MDA's an average coach at best, needs to go, and that Doc, Thibs, etc. are elite. We can do this back and forth all day.

They are hypotheticals, all of it. Who knows if any of those players develop into what they are under MDA, he's not exactly notorious for playing a bench, or having non-shooters on the floor.

 

[CP1708]

Well, they didn't draft Barbosa, or Diaw, they traded for them. And they went to the conference finals 3 times, but whatever. I know facts aren't your thing in this discussion. They did draft Marion tho.

And elite Thibbs has been well documented in here. Doc was getting railed by that ESPN writer weekly, the same writer who praises MDA plenty........before he got hired by the Lakers.


Again, you don't want to read all the info that was provided to you and keep making **** up as you go along, that's cool. Good job, good effort.

 

[MVP]

They did traded for Barbosa's draft rights, he never played for another NBA and drafted Marion and traded for Diaw, kept putting that backwards, but the point still stands. They did the same thing Lakers did, just switch out the names and the conference finals for the finals, so there was enough talent there to be that good but not enough to get to the Finals. I don't buy it.

You'd rather deal in fantasy land in your discussions, and I like to deal with reality. Good job, good effort.

 

[licensed to ball]

So...

Much...

Text...

 

[CP1708]

They did traded for Barbosa's draft rights, he never played for another NBA and drafted Marion and traded for Diaw, kept putting that backwards, but the point still stands. They did the same thing Lakers did, just switch out the names and the conference finals for the finals, so there was enough talent there to be that good but not enough to get to the Finals. I don't buy it.

You'd rather deal in fantasy land in your discussions, and I like to deal with reality. Good job, good effort.

One detail you forgetting.

Ready?

SARVER DIDN'T GET HALF THOSE DUDES.

Stat, Marion, Barbosa came PRE Sarver.

So if you would have read all that info, you would see that Sarver basically forced out the GM that brought in Stat, Marion, Barbosa, Joe Johnson, signed Nash, hired Mike, then had to trade Johnson for Diaw because of Sarver.

Tell me, why would a GM who has a 62 win team, with a young core, in good financial shape, why would you ask that GM to take a paycut?

Anyone ever heard of that? Why would the GM that built that roster, be forced to leave?


And then, in 2010, they once again get to the conference finals, and what happens to the GM following that run? He gets forced out too.


So no, it was not the same thing as what Buss, and Mitch did 05-07. They worked TOGETHER to build their roster, Sarver came in and wrecking balled what was built before him.

and I like to deal with reality

"Is Robert Sarver cheap?"

"No"

and I like to deal with reality

 

[CP1708]

K, now that it's official.

Tom Thibbs.

No Rose, so can't blame him for that, right?

Here's my thing. Noah, Gibson, Butler, Boozer, Hinrich been his core for a few years now. Like 4 years. Playoffs every year.

They just got beat by a Wizards team with first timers in the playoffs, Wall, Beal, Booker. Ariza who hasn't been seen since 2009. Nene and Gortat. And a coach named Whitman.

Chicago having homecourt, and losing all 3 at home, and their 4th loss, was when Nene was suspended.


A team that hasn't been to the playoffs in forever, with first time playoff players, and a coach I don't even know, takes out a Thibbs team with a core that's been together for a good 3-4 years, and has HC?

Randy Whittman? Who the hell is that?


This acceptable to you folks?

 

[BIG LEEMELONE]

Cp really has nothing better to do

 

[sea manup]

 

[licensed to ball]

Oh god CP

I'm really not biting the bait this time. Think what you want about Thibs I don't even care anymore

 

[CP1708]

Oh god CP

I'm really not biting the bait this time. Think what you want about Thibs I don't even care anymore

I'm just askin man. You know it will come up at some point, someday. I might as well be the bad guy for it.


Checked the Book of Basketball I have on my laptop, some quotes....

Regarding Steve Nash's career.

probably would have played in a Finals if (a) Phoenix’s owner weren’t such a cheapskate, (b) Joe Johnson hadn’t broken his face early in the ’04 playoffs, (c) Tim Donaghy reffing Game 3 and the Amar’e/Diaw leaving-the-bench suspensions 106 had never happened in ’07, (d) Tim Duncan hadn’t hit that crazy three in Game 1 of the ’08 Spurs-Suns series, and/or (e) Phoenix’s owner weren’t such a shameless cheapskate

after seeing how Mike D’Antoni altered the statistical careers of many of the ’09 Knicks, coupled with Nash’s regression back to his Dallas numbers from ’01 to ’04, it’s hard to argue the theory that D’Antoni’s system made Nash to a large degree

I don't agree with all of it, but some interesting points in there.

 

[darthska]

Like, you seem legit offended dudes ain't reading those 7 articles.

As if it wasn't possible to just post 7 examples and links to those articles.

 

[CP1708]

I am. Dude said "I couldn't find anything, show me how he's cheap"

*logs onto laptop*

*searches 14 seconds*

*posts 7 articles in 4 minutes*


"I ain't readin that".

HE THE DUDE THAT ASKED FOR IT!!!!!


Bring Zo in here, he would absolutely crush Sarver in here with more text than those 7 articles.. Suns fans loathe that dude. Mamba like, "naw, he cool, I'd take him....."

 

[darthska]

[quote name="CP1708"]

I am. Dude said "I couldn't find anything, show me how he's cheap"

*logs onto laptop*

*searches 14 seconds*

*posts 7 articles in 4 minutes*


"I ain't readin that".

HE THE DUDE THAT ASKED FOR IT!!!!!


Bring Zo in here, he would absolutely crush Sarver in here with more text than those 7 articles.. Suns fans loathe that dude. Mamba like, "naw, he cool, I'd take him....." [/quote]I'll cut you.