2015 NY Knicks offseason thread, Los Almighty appreciation thread

Sorry but the Knicks will be a mess. I'm usually optimistic but this team is doom for mediocrity

I can't even play GM because it hurts my head just thinking about the current makeup of this team

You dudes talking free agency, give this dude a max, etc..

Zinger needs to go to the gym

i only come here for the laughs now :frown:
 
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THE GR8EST said:
JohnnyRedStorm said:
Monroe's max isn't terrible either. I think it's like 5/63?

Look, we need to build a balanced roster and there's many ways, different styles to do it. I'm fine maxing out Monroe and bringing in a center like Robin for 3 years. This way, if and when King Zinger is ready to start full time, he has the 5 open for him. So we position ourselves to win immediately, but leave room to win down the road as well.

The issue there is the 2. We need someone who can create his own shot, space the floor and defend. Not easy getting that guy for the cheap. So Phil is gonna need to be creative because whether we go Monroe, Robin, guard or whoever, we have 3 holes that need to be filled. It isn't fair to expect King Zinger to step in day 1 and play the 5 for substantial time. We gotta ease the kid into the game, keep him healthy and confident, make life easy for him.

If we can dump Caldo, we'd be in great shape to fill our 3 needs. But with him on board, it gets tough.
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Like you said, we have 3 spots to fil. Why not start Zinger and make it 2 spots? I dont think it will do us or Zinger any good to start him off the bench behind a guy like Robin Lopez.

Let the kid play. Im a big believer in learning from mistakes and experience being the best teacher there is. I think starting Zinger would be best for us (saves us $ that we will need) and best for Zinger's long term development. Hes here. Hes gonna get it rough. No need to baby him.

I think he will shock a lot of you. Yall would be clamoring up ROY hype right now if we had drafted that scrub Okafor. I think a large reason why a lot of you think Zinger isnt ready to play year 1 is because we havent watched him play at a high level yet.
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If he was stronger I wouldn't have a problem with it, but his physicality is still a work in progress. Rather just take it easy with him and let him work his way into more and more of a responsibility.


Esse said:
golden state won the last 3 games with there "rim protector" barely on the floor, they played great team defense

 clippers loss 3 straight with one of the best rim protectors in the league

if the team defense is lacking, rim protection is useless, its all about team defense
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Golden State beat the worst team to be in the Finals of all time so I honestly can't give them too much credit, but they were the best defensive team in the league this year.

Clippers choked that series away.
 
Esse said:
being 7'2 means nothing
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I dont even know how to respond to that.

Zinger being a 7'2 shot blocker means "nothing," but Monroe being 6'10 and unable to play "team defense" or protect the rim means he can be our center? Lol what?
 
And I agree that "team defense" is more important than a "single rim protector," @Esse but like people often do on this site you are taking too much an "all or none" approach and limiting the importance of a serviceable rim protector.

The 09 Nuggets had Birdman averaging 2.5 blocks per game in 20 minutes off the bench and Nene and KMart each chipped in more than a block per game as well. Sure, they had great team defense, which was the most important thing, but they were great at protecting the hoop. Other than Tyson, the Knicks havent had a player average more than a block per game since we traded Camby.

A great rim protector will only improve "team defense." You dont get worse at "team defense" because you have a rim protecting center, you usually get much better actually because most great "team defenses" block shots. Either through one player specifically (the rim protector) or together as a unit (the 09 Nuggets/2013 Warriors approach).

In addition, the other great part of having a rim protecting center is that he often hides the deficencies of poor defensive teams. The Knicks always were a middle of the pack defensive team with Tyson manning the paint, despite being pretty poor as a unit. Tyson was able to cover for the defensive deficencies of the rest of the team.

Rim protector can make a solid team defense great or make a bad defensive team solid. It is never a negative in today's NBA. Any team could find use of a capable rim protector and it is FAR from overrated.

And no, I dont think Zinger will be a reliable defensive center as a rookie. I DO think he becomes one over time so I would rather have him work out the kinks in the short term. Especially because the other option you are throwing out there will cost us a long term mac contract and make us a worse "team defense" unit and add nothing in terms of rim protection.

Your argument makes no sense. How can you be so worried about how Zinger will be able to play defense in the NBA but overlook just how bad Monroe is on that side of the floor?

I never said that starting Zinger at center is the perfect option. Just that it is the best option we have and that we want him in that spot long term so we might as well start him early. That is why I want to bring in a player who could help make that transition easier on him like David West instead of signing ANOTHER defensive liability in the form of Monroe.

I would respect your concerns about Zinger's defense a lot more if your ulterior option was not an even worse defender who cant even protect the rim, something that Zinger can at least do.
 
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Yo I still have to watch Bargs suit up? Naw man. July 1st, please.

Do the Knicks even have any legit starters besides Melo/Zinger? Srs
 
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Esse said:
at the end of the day we drafted zing to be one of our scoring options, not a player to bang with centers and be our rim protector just because hes 7'2

most likely monroe will be our starting center and zing will be our stretch 4
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This just is not true. We drafted Zinger because of his all around versatility as a basketball player, not as a scorer. This is what seperates him from most Euro prospects and had Euro scouts raving that he might be the best overall prospect in the draft.

Look at any scouting report on Zinger you could find and his defensive potential and shot blocking are ALWAYS brought up in the strengths category. His physical strength is often listed as a weakness, but very few teams bang down low nowadays, and this is why I want to sign David West. He is cheaper than Monroe and helps Zinger a lot more in that aspect. Monroe will cost this team a lot of money and he ******* sucks at defense. I dont get the mindset of wanting to ease Zinger along defensively by pairing him with an even worse defender, which just puts more pressure on him. David West would take defensive pressure away from Zinger in the short term, while also mentoring him to become a better overall defender (not just a rim protector) in the long term.

Zinger knows this as much/more as anybody. He has repeatedly said that he sees himself being much more than just a scoring option/stretch 4. He has said that he plans to be a center in this league and his first priority is to prove himself to be a capable NBA defender. I just dont see the point in signing Monroe to a long term contract just to get in the way of Zinger.

If you were bringing up Marc Gasol or Aldridge, I would get where you are coming from. But those are unrealistic options and signing Greg Monroe to try and hide your concerns about Zinger's defense just doesnt make any sense. He is a guy to sign just because we can. Im not down to do that. That sounds like Amare to me. Except that Amare actually made more sense considering the team we had/were trying to build at that time (pre-Melo, around D'Antoni's offense).

He isnt ideal for Melo or for Zinger, and those are the 2 players we are trying to build around. Signing West to hold down the spot until a better option comes around makes a lot more sense than investing in a poor defensive player and a bad overall fit.
 
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Monroe is a nice triangle fit. Solid passer, can play the high post. I like him more as a 4 though.
 
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Phil wants Shved and Smith back also we are going to be meeting with Aminu. We are only looking at West as a fall back option if we don't get one of the younger PFs on the market.
 
Your'e right I shouldnt be comparing Monroe to Amare.

Amare was a perennial all-star starter who had reached the WCF as the top scoring option on his team. Monroe hasnt sniffed an all-star spot or the playoffs in the East :lol:

However, I will continue to compare them because the same problems will exist despite their differences as offensive players and NBA talents in general. Because they are both bad defensive 4s, and we are looking to sign Monroe to a max contract, similar to what we did to Amare.

And Monroe's defense is not underrated. Dude couldnt even hold it down defensively next to Andre Drummond in Detroit, what makes you think he will be fine at center next to Melo and Zinger? We need DEFENSE from that spot. Melo and Zinger should be more than capable of providing the offense.

Here is what Zach Lowe wrote about Monroe this season:

"Monroe is a very good offensive player, but he’s a glaring liability on defense in a league getting smaller and quicker.

He’s a turnstile trying to contain the pick-and-roll out on the floor — a mess of bad footwork, poor timing, lazy reaches, and bad choices. When Detroit has him hang back at the foul line, ball handlers can zip around him with an easy crossover or launch wide-open jumpers as Monroe, petrified at giving up a rim run, retreats a step farther than most bigs would dare — often with his arms down.

Pistons fans complained, with some justification, about Lawrence Frank’s reluctance to play Monroe and Drummond together for much of last season, but Monroe’s total inability to guard stretchier power forwards factored into that choice — just as it should factor into Detroit’s evaluation of things now. When the Pistons asked Monroe to attack the ball higher on the floor, the mess was almost worse.

Point guards can juke Monroe with laughable ease by faking toward a screener, watching Monroe lurch in that direction, and then crossing over the other way and into an unpatrolled lane.

Monroe is often late in jumping out above a screen, meaning his momentum is going too hard the wrong way (toward half court) as the opposing point guard revs up to turn the corner. And when Detroit has asked him to hedge sideways, as in the still below, Monroe often arrives too late to cut off the ball handler."
 
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Yep Esse, you're right. STAT won his rookie of the year riding Steve Nash. And for him to be "washed up" he still had / has one of the highest PER for minutes played. Sure he lost athleticism, but he more than made up for it by developing a post game. Yep, the last time he made an all star team was when he was with Nash. Oh wait, he was an all star with us. Without Nash. He led the Knicks in scoring without Nash. He played with less talent here than he ever did in Phoenix until they traded for Melo. Imagine if the Knicks starting five was

Nash
Johnson
Quentin Richardson
Shawn Marion in his prime
And STAT

Dude isn't washed at all, his knees were a product of run and gun, otherwise known as seven seconds or less. Since when has anyone known Amare to be a stopper? No one went in saying Amare was a beast, but he held the squad down, and then Melo took it over. Also, STAT was a good locker room guy, never complained about minutes restrictions or none of that. Let you tell it dude was a bum, sure he made some dumb plays, but he also made good ones as well, dude is not washed, he is still good and I'd welcome him back because he already knows he's gotten the most money he is ever going to get.
 
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^ thank you for letting me avoid a rant :lol:

Amare was a better player before Nash got to Phoenix than Monroe has ever been.

Sure Nash helped him immensely, there is no way you could possibly deny that, but to say he "wouldnt be ****" without Nash is just as ignorant. Those Suns teams dont have even close to the success they had without STAT.

Again, stop looking at everything from such an "all or none" perspective. Nothing about basketball is ever black or white. You could make the same argument that Nash was a product of playing with Amare.

In reality, they were a product of each other. 2 great players who fit together beautifully in D'Antoni's offense.
 
THE GR8EST said:
^ thank you for letting me avoid a rant :lol:

Amare was a better player before Nash got to Phoenix than Monroe has ever been.

Sure Nash helped him immensely, there is no way you could possibly deny that, but to say he "wouldnt be ****" without Nash is just as ignorant. Those Suns teams dont have even close to the success they had without STAT.

Again, stop looking at everything from such an "all or none" perspective. Nothing about basketball is ever black or white. You could make the same argument that Nash was a product of playing with Amare.

In reality, they were a product of each other. 2 great players who fit together beautifully in D'Antoni's offense.
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And to add to that, what player doesn't develop without a PG like Nash, dude in here talking like Nash is Carlos Arroyo or something. Nash will be in the HOF. But STAT was good prior to Nash when Starbury was at the helm. Hell STAT was good when Felton and Billups were running the helm. Dude has being washed confused with a loss of athleticism. Which STAT still has ( although a little less of), but for the right price I'd welcome him to come off of the bench.
 
art vandelay said:
Yep Esse, you're right. STAT won his rookie of the year riding Steve Nash. And for him to be "washed up" he still had / has one of the highest PER for minutes played. Sure he lost athleticism, but he more than made up for it by developing a post game. Yep, the last time he made an all star team was when he was with Nash. Oh wait, he was an all star with us. Without Nash. He led the Knicks in scoring without Nash. He played with less talent here than he ever did in Phoenix until they traded for Melo. Imagine if the Knicks starting five was

Nash
Johnson
Quentin Richardson
Shawn Marion in his prime
And STAT

Dude isn't washed at all, his knees were a product of run and gun, otherwise known as seven seconds or less. Since when has anyone known Amare to be a stopper? No one went in saying Amare was a beast, but he held the squad down, and then Melo took it over. Also, STAT was a good locker room guy, never complained about minutes restrictions or none of that. Let you tell it dude was a bum, sure he made some dumb plays, but he also made good ones as well, dude is not washed, he is still good and I'd welcome him back because he already knows he's gotten the most money he is ever going to get.
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t
 
Amar'e was a great talent but he did himself a disservice by not learning the intricacies of basketball earlier in his career and allowing himself to dominate with raw talent.
 
Esse said:
wow rookie of the year putting up 13 and 9

:lol:  at "developed a postgame", all i seen was struggle post moves in ny

led a bottom seed knicks team in scoring averaging almost 20 shots a game

any player should be able to do that, making an all star team in the east as a number option shouldn't be considered an accomplishment

amare was one of the most overrated players of the past decade , the knicks were barely over 500 before melo got there
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Struggle moves that led to buckets, although some turnovers, but he can and could score.

He put up ROY numbers in the West. The West has always been good. You know the West that still KG, Duncan, etc.....

And since you're talking any player can do that, the forum is waiting for you to tell us when Monroe did that on his bottom feeding team........., we will all be here when you can. Matter of fact, if you couldn't post in here until you could tell us when Monroe did anything with a "bottom seed team" would we ever see you again? When did he average 20 shots a game?
 
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Esse said:
monroe is a product of a dysfunctional franchise

hes had 5 head coaches since he was drafted

try again
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Try again, how bout you answer the question. But anyway, you got it. I'm not even for the argument, you got it, although those excuses were quick, now that you spun them, what else you got. Like Dolan hadn't made this franchise dysfunctional. Did you JUST start watching Knicks ball, well, the Knicks were dysfunctional since what, 99. Yeah, the Pistons have won what since 99, oh yeah, they won a chip. Now, you stop it "b".
 
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JohnnyRedStorm said:
Amar'e was a great talent but he did himself a disservice by not learning the intricacies of basketball earlier in his career and allowing himself to dominate with raw talent.
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Agreed with this.

@Esse you continue to **** on Amare for dominating on a bottom seed Knicks team in scoring (FTR Knicks were scorching that season after a bad start and Amare was averaging more than 25 PPG). You say that "anyone can do that."

Them why the **** cant Greg Monroe do that? You **** on Amare for his flaws, and I agree that Amare is flawed, but Greg Monroe is 10x more flawed a player than Amare and an even worse defender.

Im not trying to give the Knicks a free pass for giving Amare $100 million. It was a bad signing. I admit that. But Amare was still 10x the player that Monroe is, and why would I want to repeat a previous lapse in judgement with another one on a worse player/similarly bad defender?

You have to acknowledge your mistakes as well as learn from them. The first step is coming to terms with a mistake, the second step is taking action to make sure it doesnt happen again. Imo if the Knicks sign Monroe to a 5 year deal, we will be regretting it within the first year.

I wont be a hypocrite. I have supported Phil all along and if he thinks Monroe is the missing piece to a Melo/Zinger frontcourt, I will try to embrace it because I trust Phil. And I guess that offensively it would make some sense to get a post threat like Monroe who is still 24 years old, because Melo and Zinger can do most of their work from the outside. I just dont think Phil will do this because of the problems it will cause defensively.

I may be wrong but I am starting to at least think I see what Phil is trying to do. I started to picture the vision on draft night. I liked the Zinger pick from the start and I loved how he got a PG. However, I think it is telling that a lot of the Monroe talk is from during the season and the David West chatter really picked up on draft night.

I think West is the better free agent option to play in between Melo and Zinger and I think Phil sees this as well. I guess we will find out soon enough.

EDIT:

:lol: @JRS just saw you post that after I wrote what I did. You know I have been preaching "Believe in Phil." I plan on sticking to that even if he signs Monroe.

:rofl: @Esse using EVERY excuse in the book to justify Greg Monroe while also using EVERY excuse in the book to take take away from Amare's success.

Its like your Greg Monroe's defense attorney and Amare's prosecutor. Cmon man, try to be rational :lol:
 
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