Andrew Tate. DONE.

[Present]

See where I stand, I just don’t know how much of this already existed and how much of this is just chronically online internet talk giving people a microphone. It all sounds plausible and logical when we talk macro. But like the more I watch some of this convos play out it feels like we’re circling the drain on a convo that stems from this meme which full of a bunch of logic holes in and of itself. Its a strange convo to say the least

Having met/"dated" my fair share of Single Mothers...

Spoiler

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Having met/"dated" my fair share of Single Mothers...

Spoiler

I can’t speak for the single mother trope, but you don’t think it’s weird that the meme paints women as wrong for not choosing an awkward, poorly dressed, probably socially awkward guy? This is kinda what I means by recalibration. I’m not saying the other dude is the right choice, but being smart can’t be the only selling point. And to my own anecdotal experience to the mix, as someone who was always interested in math and science to the point where I became an engineer, most of the dudes in the first panel dont turn into the boss ceo in the second panel. They turn into older versions of the same awkward albeit intelligent guy.

I understand the criticism at the single mom/3 baby daddy stereotype gets on the dating market, but her not choosing the thug doesn’t make the dude who probably can’t hold a conversation with a woman the better choice.

Imagine what it would look like in reverse but instead of a nerd it was a 350 pound woman. Even she lost weight no body would look back and think a dude was stupid for not dating her during a time he didn’t find her attractive

 

[Present]

I can’t speak for the single mother trope, but you don’t think it’s weird that the meme paints women as wrong for not choosing an awkward, poorly dressed, probably socially awkward guy? This is kinda what I means by recalibration. I’m not saying the other dude is the right choice, but being smart can’t be the only selling point. And to my own anecdotal experience to the mix, as someone who was always interested in math and science to the point where I became an engineer, most of the dudes in the first panel dont turn into the boss ceo in the second panel. They turn into older versions of the same awkward albeit intelligent guy.

I understand the criticism at the single mom/3 baby daddy stereotype gets on the dating market, but her not choosing the thug doesn’t make the dude who probably can’t hold a conversation with a woman the better choice.

Imagine what it would look like in reverse but instead of a nerd it was a 350 pound woman. Even she lost weight no body would look back and think a dude was stupid for not dating her during a time he didn’t find her attractive

The funny thing about that meme IMHO is that there was a nerdy, poorly dressed, socially awkward, goofy girl, somewhere in that same school that would have been a perfect match for that kid but he couldn't see her because all the T&A the other girl had was in the way.

Ironic isn't it?

 

[nice jahb]

I see no lies from Cam here.

 

[finessence]

As a married guy my views of the current men vs women dynamic is pretty much limited to what I see through my male and female friends, family etc. but I think the “how” that got use here is more interesting than the pod cast wars.

if you listen to the Jordan Petersons of the world we’re here because society over invested in women and neglected men creating a mismatches where in the past there would have been compatibility. But because society never actually recalibrated or adjusted to what it looks like to have women take up equal space as men, all of the same “traditional” standards are what men are being held too.

I’ve also recently heard it explained that, women are encouraged and empowered to be both masculine and feminine and society has to make room for that, but men’s only option is to “out masculine” masculine women even though we don’t live in a society that calls for that level of masculinity anymore.

Whatever way you slice it, this imbalance is trickling down to causing a long angst from men and the andrew tates capitalize on it.

My unsolicited 2 cents is that men and women both need to recalibrate. Life isn’t easy and it’s too expensive to get by alone.

What makes you think our society doesn’t call for that level of masculinity anymore? It DEFINITELY still does…. It never needs to change

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

What makes you think our society doesn’t call for that level of masculinity anymore? It DEFINITELY still does…. It never needs to change

I’m specifically talking about the level of masculinity needed to “out masculine” a masculine woman. Seems like a recipe for more contentious relationships to me. Doesn’t feel like we’re moving towards balance

 

[finessence]

I’m specifically talking about the level of masculinity needed to “out masculine” a masculine woman. Seems like a recipe for more contentious relationships to me. Doesn’t feel like we’re moving towards balance

Why can’t it be collaborative? The problem is not the battle of male vs female masculinity. The issue now is people lack simple comprehension skills, social skills, boundaries, etc.

Technology has skewed and warped people’s ability to communicate on a basic level.

If you’re a poor communicator, you probably won’t be successful in any area of life, let alone a relationship. That’s the gist of our issues nowadays.

Kids and young adults are being pacified by phones, tablets, video games, etc and don’t physically or verbally interact with each other that much nowadays. So, they’re growing up introverted and socially awkward. And once they get older, they lack the skills needed to interact with people, once adulthood is reached.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Why can’t it be collaborative? The problem is not the battle of male vs female masculinity. The issue now is people lack simple comprehension skills, social skills, boundaries, etc.

Technology has skewed and warped people’s ability to communicate on a basic level.

If you’re a poor communicator, you probably won’t be successful in any area of life, let alone a relationship. That’s the gist of our issues nowadays.

Kids and young adults are being pacified by phones, tablets, video games, etc and don’t physically or verbally interact with each other that much nowadays. So, they’re growing up introverted and socially awkward. And once they get older, they lack the skills needed to interact with people, once adulthood is reached.

I’m not saying that it can’t be collaborative I’m not even saying masculinity is a bad thing. My original comment was about the different takes I’ve seen about how things have reached the state that theyre in. One of those takes being that society pushes women to adopt masculinity as well and that men’s only avenue seems to simply become more masculine than masculine women.


My unsolicited 2 cents is that men and women both need to recalibrate. Life isn’t easy and it’s too expensive to get by alone.

 

[stuntman mike]

 

[mplsdunk]

We always say at work nicotine+caffeine= protein.

 

[tokes99]

I see no lies from Cam here.

if, as a man, you point these things out, you are being ‘sassy’ tho

Why can’t it be collaborative? The problem is not the battle of male vs female masculinity. The issue now is people lack simple comprehension skills, social skills, boundaries, etc.

Technology has skewed and warped people’s ability to communicate on a basic level.

If you’re a poor communicator, you probably won’t be successful in any area of life, let alone a relationship. That’s the gist of our issues nowadays.

Kids and young adults are being pacified by phones, tablets, video games, etc and don’t physically or verbally interact with each other that much nowadays. So, they’re growing up introverted and socially awkward. And once they get older, they lack the skills needed to interact with people, once adulthood is reached.

while i don’t think you get much disagreement from most by making those observations, there more going on than folks being introverted & socially awkward, neither of which are new phenomenons…

I’m not saying that it can’t be collaborative I’m not even saying masculinity is a bad thing. My original comment was about the different takes I’ve seen about how things have reached the state that theyre in. One of those takes being that society pushes women to adopt masculinity as well and that men’s only avenue seems to simply become more masculine than masculine women.


My unsolicited 2 cents is that men and women both need to recalibrate. Life isn’t easy and it’s too expensive to get by alone.

in an environment where the ‘future is female’ & much of masculinity is deemed toxic, especially the things that aren’t of benefit to women, men today have recalibrated…for better & worse, men are softer today than maybe any generation of men that have came before, some of which at the behest of women’s wants…more understanding, more willing to acquiesce, to cede leadership, more attentive, more considerate & conscientious than men in the past. some men decide to over index the other way, i.e. andrew tate; different strats for different folk

women today have goals beyond incubation and the means & motivation to pursue them, in fact some explicitly chase those things as a way not to be beholden to a man. many women genuinely believe/feel/think they don’t ‘need a man, but want one’ and even the want is kinda iffy . technology exists such that the consequences of biology can not exist if one so deems, at least for a time, that obviously has been part of recalibration too

so recalibration is already happening, it’s always happening…from bride prices, dowries, arranged marriages, asking the father for a woman’s hand in marriage, to the open sexual market of today. for most of human history most people were pretty much constrained by their socioeconomic group, who was around, and biology; this may functionally still be the case for the majority but the awareness possibilities & fomo of opportunity costs is ever present via screens. in the past men & women had their roles, these roles used to be clearly defined but today women’s increased agency has expanded their roles to some degree at the expense of men’s roles…which is compounded by that increased agency making, at least financially, a good deal of men a less attractive potential partner…it’s likely not going to improve before it gets worse

 

[Beruseruku Desu]

BBC interview with Tate

 

[6 Rings G.O.A.T.]

if, as a man, you point these things out, you are being ‘sassy’ tho

Everything is sassy..

I saw a video where a lady was complaining/*red flag* if the dude celebrated his birthday..

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

if, as a man, you point these things out, you are being ‘sassy’ tho



while i don’t think you get much disagreement from most by making those observations, there more going on than folks being introverted & socially awkward, neither of which are new phenomenons…



in an environment where the ‘future is female’ & much of masculinity is deemed toxic, especially the things that aren’t of benefit to women, men today have recalibrated…for better & worse, men are softer today than maybe any generation of men that have came before, some of which at the behest of women’s wants…more understanding, more willing to acquiesce, to cede leadership, more attentive, more considerate & conscientious than men in the past. some men decide to over index the other way, i.e. andrew tate; different strats for different folk

women today have goals beyond incubation and the means & motivation to pursue them, in fact some explicitly chase those things as a way not to be beholden to a man. many women genuinely believe/feel/think they don’t ‘need a man, but want one’ and even the want is kinda iffy . technology exists such that the consequences of biology can not exist if one so deems, at least for a time, that obviously has been part of recalibration too

so recalibration is already happening, it’s always happening…from bride prices, dowries, arranged marriages, asking the father for a woman’s hand in marriage, to the open sexual market of today. for most of human history most people were pretty much constrained by their socioeconomic group, who was around, and biology; this may functionally still be the case for the majority but the awareness possibilities & fomo of opportunity costs is ever present via screens. in the past men & women had their roles, these roles used to be clearly defined but today women’s increased agency has expanded their roles to some degree at the expense of men’s roles…which is compounded by that increased agency making, at least financially, a good deal of men a less attractive potential partner…it’s likely not going to improve before it gets worse

All I know is that the material conditions of life are becoming less and less suited for the average person to take on alone. Hell, even for the above average person it’s getting harder all the whole men are committing suicide at higher rates and women are reporting levels of loneliness that are historically higher as well. Back in 2017 my wife and I bought our house for $200k. It’s by all means a starter home. We were both making $65-70k a piece and we essentially cleared out out bank account to buy and fix it up. Fast forward to 2023 we make considerably more but our starter home is now worth $415k, and the starter home life is even more out of reach. If folks don’t find a way to figure it out it’s going to get worse not better.

 

[6 Rings G.O.A.T.]

If folks don’t find a way to figure it out it’s going to get worse not better.

 

[finessence]

If folks don’t find a way to figure it out it’s going to get worse not better.

I thought modern society was the smartest, most advanced, the most intelligent era of human beings thus far though……

It should be “easy” to figure out, with all these newfangled advancements, right…?

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

I thought modern society was the smartest, most advanced, the most intelligent era of human beings thus far though……

It should be “easy” to figure out, with all these newfangled advancements, right…?

Being able to solve math problems faster doesn’t always translate to figuring out human behavior. Folks seem more concerned arguing over who what to the table rather than pairing up with someone they can tackle life with.

 

[tokes99]

I thought modern society was the smartest, most advanced, the most intelligent era of human beings thus far though……

It should be “easy” to figure out, with all these newfangled advancements, right…?

the former being true doesn’t as a necessity relate to the former positively, in fact it has be shown in most every modern society in these times education almost always, especially for women specifically, does tend to delay folks desire for things like serious relationship, marriage, family, children…

Being able to solve math problems faster doesn’t always translate to figuring out human behavior. Folks seem more concerned arguing over who what to the table rather than pairing up with someone they can tackle life with.

even tho the ‘what one brings to the table’ is an asinine question to ask a someone, especially a stranger…that folk get so pressed about it is telling, furthermore i think that whole discourse is more of an online thing. more time its really just an expectations mismatch, which often neither side really articulates upfront and ends up resenting the other party for not being/doing these unsaid things.

there is this saying i’ve heard online that ‘women control access to sex & men control access to relationships’ which makes sense if the men in question are in that select demographic that are really desired otherwise most women today in reality control both; as such it really on the women if the one is to believe all the stories in the media about finding the majority of men financially unattractive…which is partly why tate’s branding is/was so resonant

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

even tho the ‘what one brings to the table’ is an asinine question to ask a someone, especially a stranger…that folk get so pressed about it is telling, furthermore i think that whole discourse is more of an online thing. more time its really just an expectations mismatch, which often neither side really articulates upfront and ends up resenting the other party for not being/doing these unsaid things.

there is this saying i’ve heard online that ‘women control access to sex & men control access to relationships’ which makes sense if the men in question are in that select demographic that are really desired otherwise most women today in reality control both; as such it really on the women if the one is to believe all the stories in the media about finding the majority of men financially unattractive…which is partly why tate’s branding is/was so resonant

Feels like people need to get off the internet and touch grass. I’ve brought it up before but the vast majority of people are finding success at entering long term relationships in person. The largest chunk coming from the combo of friends and family + school + work
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/a-profile-of-single-americans/

Granted this is pre-COVID , so replicating the same success would probably call for more deliberate/intentional.

 

[tokes99]

Feels like people need to get off the internet and touch grass. I’ve brought it up before but the vast majority of people are finding success at entering long term relationships in person. The largest chunk coming from the combo of friends and family + school + work
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/a-profile-of-single-americans/

Granted this is pre-COVID , so replicating the same success would probably call for more deliberate/intentional.

maybe and survey are often lagging, but i don’t think the online thing is likely to change, even with the poor results because all of those traditional arenas have become more difficult and or taboo:

families are both more fractured & are less involved in the dating/mating game and those most doing the actual dating/mating want it this way .

school, especially at the u.s. college/university level is increasingly becoming majority female (it’s something like 60% women, some put the number at 2/3rds), with many young men dropping out if they even decide to enroll at all, and while i don’t really believe ‘hookup culture’ to be a thing, if it were to be, the circumstance where women out number men would definitely facilitate it

sparking workplace romances today is fraught with all manner of risk, even if it is overstated

the getting together is only part of the equation…the other part is actually staying together. even tho online dating is not all that enjoyable or successful for most, the potential upside and the diminished social pressure is appealing; easier to dissolve a relationship when the investment in the relationship doesn’t involve friends & family. not to say that marriage is the only metric or even an important one, but when you see who is ending marriages more time it is the woman, many a man is often a bit blindsided to find out the problems are at the level of dissolution and/or are willfully ignorant and kinda just grit through; men usually have to invest upfront to even get a woman and get into that scarcity/sunk cost mindset.

even if the headwinds of the economy would seem to contradict this for most us normal folk, there is, or at least seems to be by the data, less incentive to get together & stay together; especially when the grass might just be greener elsewhere. whereas in the past that thought could only be a notion, today, technology makes it a possibility…i believe statistically the group of people that actually seem to fair better in marriages are those that are better off financially, how & what version ‘better off financially’ might factor in but it is a key commentary on relationships today

 

[Maximus Meridius]

I see no lies from Cam here.

It's weird cuz we watched Reginae grow up but man listen...

 

[finessence]

Everyone knows Reginae is fine as hell. That’s not the issue

 

[finessence]

Everyone knows Reginae is fine as hell. That’s not the issue.

Reginae could take the weave and makeup off and she’d still look good.

The point is, if 80% of women walked outside as their true self, things would not be as they are.

If they came out side as is, a lot of these women would look like completely different people

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

maybe and survey are often lagging, but i don’t think the online thing is likely to change, even with the poor results because all of those traditional arenas have become more difficult and or taboo:

families are both more fractured & are less involved in the dating/mating game and those most doing the actual dating/mating want it this way .

school, especially at the u.s. college/university level is increasingly becoming majority female (it’s something like 60% women, some put the number at 2/3rds), with many young men dropping out if they even decide to enroll at all, and while i don’t really believe ‘hookup culture’ to be a thing, if it were to be, the circumstance where women out number men would definitely facilitate it

sparking workplace romances today is fraught with all manner of risk, even if it is overstated

the getting together is only part of the equation…the other part is actually staying together. even tho online dating is not all that enjoyable or successful for most, the potential upside and the diminished social pressure is appealing; easier to dissolve a relationship when the investment in the relationship doesn’t involve friends & family. not to say that marriage is the only metric or even an important one, but when you see who is ending marriages more time it is the woman, many a man is often a bit blindsided to find out the problems are at the level of dissolution and/or are willfully ignorant and kinda just grit through; men usually have to invest upfront to even get a woman and get into that scarcity/sunk cost mindset.

even if the headwinds of the economy would seem to contradict this for most us normal folk, there is, or at least seems to be by the data, less incentive to get together & stay together; especially when the grass might just be greener elsewhere. whereas in the past that thought could only be a notion, today, technology makes it a possibility…i believe statistically the group of people that actually seem to fair better in marriages are those that are better off financially, how & what version ‘better off financially’ might factor in but it is a key commentary on relationships today

I don’t think any one method will go away. In fact that data isn’t even saying that people aren’t participating in all the methods, just that people who do do find their partners end up doing it in person via proximity. People may never give up on online dating; its just not as likely to yield a long term partner as meeting people in real life, how ever that happens.

As far as what happens once they get into relationships women definitely initiate divorce more. I can’t say for sure why that is. In the past women weren’t really expected to contribute much towards the household income, so they could focus on the household up keep. It seems that now a days women often have to work, and still come home and take care of the daily/weekly upkeep. Perhaps that contributes to them filing at higher rates?

Women Still Handle Main Household Tasks in U.S.

Women remain more likely to handle certain household jobs, including laundry, cooking and cleaning, while men are still more likely to maintain the car and the yard.

news.gallup.com

 

[finessence]

I feel cleaning, laundry, cooking, etc should be done by ALL parties. If you’re a grown adult who doesn’t have the urge to clean or do your laundry, that’s just disgusting and you living foul. Literally