California propositions thread: Props 1,2,3,8,9,11,12 Pass, Props 4,5,6,7,10 fail

[oh you mad]

Originally Posted by tuna629

A quick question for Yes on 8 dudes. What if one day, your only son tells you that he's gay?

Will you blame the society for turning him gay? Or will your blame yourself for not educating him well? Or will you force him to date/marry a girl because you just think that he's faking it?

What if he wants to get married? What will you tell him? "Oh son it's ok a domestic partnership is every bit as good as a marriage"?

Will you support whatever he "chooses" to do and hope that he lives happily or will you want him to adhere to your values and live miserably?

My son wont... I didn't turn out gay, so I will teach my son the same way my parents thought me...

 

[theyhatinonme]

Originally Posted by tuna629

A quick question for Yes on 8 dudes. What if one day, your only son tells you that he's gay?

Will you blame the society for turning him gay? Or will your blame yourself for not educating him well? Or will you force him to date/marry a girl because you just think that he's faking it?

What if he wants to get married? What will you tell him? "Oh son it's ok a domestic partnership is every bit as good as a marriage"?

Will you support whatever he "chooses" to do and hope that he lives happily or will you want him to adhere to your values and live miserably?

no I wouldn't support him. I would have to put him up for adoption because I don't want any gay people in my house.

 

[sohi 23]

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

My son wont... I didn't turn out gay, so I will teach my son the same way my parents thought me...

So, what about parents who have one gay kid and one straight kid?
Did they teach one of their kids to be gay and the other to be straight?

 

[wildout4]

Originally Posted by theyhatinonme

Go and ask child molesters if they were born that way and they will tell you the same thing the gays tell you. Both of these things are sexual perversions that are a choice. And the thing about "who would make a choice that would turn them into social outcasts?" people make choices to be social outcasts all the time weather it's getting tattoos on your face or being a goth.

makes a good point

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by SoHi 23

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

My son wont... I didn't turn out gay, so I will teach my son the same way my parents thought me...

So, what about parents who have one gay kid and one straight kid?
Did they teach one of their kids to be gay and the other to be straight?

It's time to quit bruh, lets just focus on re petitioning these people don't get it. I hate letting politics help me judge people'scharacter but it does. And I can't associate myself with people who voted Yes. Ignorance breeds Ignorance

 

[sohi 23]

You're right man.
It just hurts my heart that people really think this way.

no I wouldn't support him. I would have to put him up for adoption because I don't want any gay people in my house.
...
I don't really have any words to respond to that.

 

[oh you mad]

Originally Posted by SoHi 23

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

My son wont... I didn't turn out gay, so I will teach my son the same way my parents thought me...

So, what about parents who have one gay kid and one straight kid?
Did they teach one of their kids to be gay and the other to be straight?

I have a younger brother and he is straight... there are no gays in my family... and your example just shows bad parenting.. or its people like you that aregoing to tell your kids "Being gay is normal son, we will support you with whatever decision you make, if you want to be gay go for it"

 

[dl2352]

Originally Posted by wildout4

Originally Posted by theyhatinonme

Go and ask child molesters if they were born that way and they will tell you the same thing the gays tell you. Both of these things are sexual perversions that are a choice. And the thing about "who would make a choice that would turn them into social outcasts?" people make choices to be social outcasts all the time weather it's getting tattoos on your face or being a goth.

makes a good point

Nope. How you're equating two consenting people that love each other to someone that victimizes children I will never understand. You focus onthe sexual nature of their relationship and in YOUR eyes it's disgusting. You also say it's a choice but how can you believe that to be absolute truth?I never decided that I liked girls, I just do. I've never had to rationalize or pick sides. It just happened. In the same way, gay people were born withfeelings of attraction towards their same sex.

 

[purplehazze96]

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

SoHi 23 wrote:

---

Oh YoU MaD wrote:

---

My son wont... I didn't turn out gay, so I will teach my son the same way my parents thought me...

So, what about parents who have one gay kid and one straight kid?


Did they teach one of their kids to be gay and the other to be straight?












I have a younger brother and he is straight... there are no gays in my family... and your example just shows bad parenting.. or its people like you that are
going to tell your kids "Being gay is normal son, we will support you with whatever decision you make, if you want to be gay go for it"

you're an embarrassment, ive tried to keep my distance from this thread as i didnt want to subject myself to the stupidity but honestly, "badparenting" is that what you actually think it is? The fact that grown, educated individuals think like this baffles me

 

[liljrdn]

Wow...I can't believe some NT'ers are out of their freaking minds with those arguments they're trying to prove

 

[in yo nostril]

stop feeding the troll guys

 

[sohi 23]

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

I have a younger brother and he is straight... there are no gays in my family... and your example just shows bad parenting..

I am truely speechless right now.
So all gay people in the world are gay as a result of bad parenting?

or its people like you that are going to tell your kids "Being gay is normal son, we will support you with whatever decision you make, if you want to be gay go for it"
What is wrong about that?
Are you going to act like it doesn't exist and hide your children from the truth?
Who am I to tell him what to do and not to(in regards to sexual orientation)?
If my child is born gay, than he is born gay.
I will not love him any more, or any less because of it.

I would much rather have my children be gay, then to be discriminant against something.

It's sickening to me.

 

[enlightened thought]

As a medical diagnosis, it is defined as a psychological disorder in which an adult experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children.
that's pedophilia. i don't think it's a choice. and that's the definition for PEDOPHILIA. don't try and turn that into thedefinition for homosexuality.

but anyway...i've learned to not judge people regarding their beliefs on many things. if you believe that gay marriage is wrong, then that's fine. ijust hope, from both sides, that while we do have differing views, we only discuss it in a civilized manner, and in that, we will all somehow find a solutionto our differences. it takes time, and i understand that. but for now, it is what it is. yes on prop 8; no to gay marriage.

 

[purplehazze96]

Originally Posted by wildout4

theyhatinonme wrote:

---

Go and ask child molesters if they were born that way and they will tell you the same thing the gays tell you. Both of these things are sexual perversions
that are a choice. And the thing about "who would make a choice that would turn them into social outcasts?" people make choices to be social
outcasts all the time weather it's getting tattoos on your face or being a goth.

makes a good point








flawed...a child molester isn't a monstrosity because they prey on the same sex, its because they prey on helpless individuals...ask yourself this, did youchoose to be straight? i know i didnt, as long as i can remember ive been attracted to females, it wasnt something i chose, it just was...Unless every anti gaysheep out there upon the arrival of puberty sat down, thought about it, and decided they wanted nothing more than to stick their pole in a vagina, anybodysaying homosexuality is a choice is a moron

edit: given that they are indeed morons, let me suggest something, you sound a lot more intelligent if you say that choosing to live a homosexual life style isa choice

 

[dl2352]

Originally Posted by purplehazze96

Originally Posted by wildout4

theyhatinonme wrote:

---

Go and ask child molesters if they were born that way and they will tell you the same thing the gays tell you. Both of these things are sexual perversions
that are a choice. And the thing about "who would make a choice that would turn them into social outcasts?" people make choices to be social
outcasts all the time weather it's getting tattoos on your face or being a goth.

makes a good point

flawed...a child molester isn't a monstrosity because they prey on the same sex, its because they prey on helpless individuals...ask yourself this, did you choose to be straight? i know i didnt, as long as i can remember ive been attracted to females, it wasnt something i chose, it just was...Unless every anti gay sheep out there upon the arrival of puberty sat down, thought about it, and decided they wanted nothing more than to stick their pole in a vagina, anybody saying homosexuality is a choice is a moron

edit: given that they are indeed morons, let me suggest something, you sound a lot more intelligent if you say that choosing to live a homosexual life style is a choice
edit: carry on

 

[purplehazze96]

^son your %+*%+@$ up shop, i was trying to take advantage of their collective intellect

really though, i thought i was gonna catch one of em slippin

 

[wildout4]

anybody saying that every homosexual is born that way is a moron.

 

[sohi 23]

Originally Posted by wildout4

anybody saying that every homosexual is born that way is a moron.

So... when did you decide to be straight?

 

[oh you mad]

Im done..

Good Night



and I have a couple of gay friends... we're cool, we never talk about them being gay, we just talk as normal people.... and I don't hate gay people Ijust disagree with what they do... thats all, and as long as It doesn't hurt my family or me its all good.. and the only reason I supported 8 is because Ihave my views on gay marriage and I believe it should be between a men and woman thats all..

 

[dl2352]

oh %@*#, my B.

 

[purplehazze96]

edit: they seem to be retiring into the night, no need to stir the pot

 

[javier5857]

Originally Posted by CincoSeisDos

Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD

Originally Posted by Enlightened Thought

you'd think minorities would know a thing or two about discrimination. guess not.

I was born mexican... and I've gone through discrimination... but I never had the choice of being a different race... BEING GAY IS A CHOICE! Just how I'm straight I could CHOOSE to go out and kiss another men, but i CHOOSE not to, because it is wrong, disgusting, different... If I want to be different, how these people CHOOSE to be... there are other ways....

so you're telling me, with your first crush, first chick you liked, you had to make a conscious decision whether or not you liked a girl or boy? Get that out of here dude.

When I was 5, in Kindergarten, I had a crush on two girls, Sofia Espinoza and Veronica Trujillo. I just liked them, hell I remember giving Sofia some of my gummy bears and so on. I didn't HAVE to make a decision on whether I liked them or my best friend Bobby, its within you before you even know it....

nobody has disputed this, and if you arent gay then how do you know its a choice?

And what about the studies that they have something in there genes that attract them to males?

There is a difference between bisexual and gay.

 

[wildout4]

wen i started watching porn.

nah but seriously, i think its all about how you are brought up. a kid growing up around a lot females and playing with barbies is going to pick up those kindof tendencies.

cuz not EVERY homosexual is born that way. i know some chicks that switched to the other side cuz werent getting the attention they wanted from guys.

FYI, i didnt vote, i could care less is prop 8 fails or passes

 

[purplehazze96]

Originally Posted by javier5857

CincoSeisDos wrote:

---

Oh YoU MaD wrote:

---

Enlightened Thought wrote:

---

you'd think minorities would know a thing or two about discrimination. guess not.

I was born mexican... and I've gone through discrimination... but I never had the choice of being a different race... BEING GAY IS A CHOICE! Just how I'm straight I could CHOOSE to go out and kiss another men, but i CHOOSE not to, because it
is wrong, disgusting, different... If I want to be different, how these people CHOOSE to be... there are other ways....






so you're telling me, with your first crush, first chick you liked, you had to make a conscious decision whether or not you liked a girl
or boy? Get that out of here dude.




When I was 5, in Kindergarten, I had a crush on two girls, Sofia Espinoza and Veronica Trujillo. I just liked them, hell I remember giving Sofia some of my
gummy bears and so on. I didn't HAVE to make a decision on whether I liked them or my best friend Bobby, its within you before you even know it....



nobody has disputed this, and if you arent gay then how do you know its a choice?




And what about the studies that they have something in there genes that attract them to males?




There is a difference between bisexual and gay.








its actually rather comedic that nobody has disputed this, the fact that you fail to see this speaks volumes...please bring forth said studies sir, i'd bedelighted to see them

 

[in the line for viis]

"Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired," Concludes Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head Of The Human Genome Project

By A. Dean Byrd, Ph.D, MBA, MPH

April 4, 2007 - Dr. Francis S. Collins, one of the world's leading scientists who works at the cutting edge of DNA, concluded that "there is an inescapable component of heritability to many human behavioral traits. For virtually none of them is heredity ever close to predictive."


Dr. Francis S. Collins
In reviewing the heritability (influence of genetic factors) of personality traits, Dr. Collins referenced the estimates of the percentage of various human personality traits that can be ascribed to heredity from the Bochard and McGue research.

The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied: General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness (42%), Conscientiousness (49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%), Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).

Kirk et al. (2000) in their research using a community-based cohort of Australian twins reported a heritability estimate of 30% for homosexuality. Whitehead (1999, 2006) in his extensive review of the research cites 30% as the estimate of heritability for homosexuality as well, though he views the estimate as a maximum.

Estimates of heritability are based upon careful analyses of studies conducted with identical twins. Such studies are important and lead to the conclusion that heredity is important in many of these traits. It is important however, to note that even in such studies with identical twins, that heritability is not to be confused as inevitability.

As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.

Dr. Collins succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and offers the following: "An area of particularly strong public interest is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4 percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations."

Dr. Collins noted that environment, particularly childhood experiences as well as the role of free will choices affect all of us in profound ways. As researchers discover increasing levels of molecular detail about inherited factors that underlie our personalities, it's critical that such data be used to illuminate, not provide support to idealogues.

Citing such dangers, Dr. Collins referred to the book written by activist Dean Hamer who declared the discovery of the God Gene (this same author also is associated with "discovering the gay gene").

Dr. Collins noted that the "evidence" in Hamer's book "grabbed headlines," but was "wildly overstated."

A reviewer in Scientific American suggested that Hamer's book on the God Gene should have been titled, "A Gene That Accounts for Less than One Percent of the Variance Found in Scores on Psychological Questionnaires Designed to Measure a Factor Called Self-Transcendence, Which Can Signify Everything from Belonging to the Green Party to Believing in ESP, According to One Unpublished, Unreplicated Study."

Unfortunately, much of the research in areas such as homosexuality, has been not only misrepresented in the media but by the scientists themselves through the tendency to overestimate the quantitative contribution of their findings.

Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two studies conducted by J. Michael Bailey. In Bailey's first study, he reported a concordance rate of 52%. In a second study, Bailey reported a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define homosexuality. The first study received a great deal of press. The second study received almost no media attention.

Bailey himself acknowledged probable selection bias in his first study---he recruited in venues where "participants considered the sexual orientation of their co-twins before agreeing to participate." The second study, using the Australian Twin Registry with its anonymous response format, made such bias unlikely.

Regarding the contributions of genetics to areas such as homosexuality, Dr. Collins concluded, "Yes, we have all been dealt a particular set of cards, and the cards will eventually be revealed. But how we play the hand is up to us." *


Bailey, Michael J., Michael P. Dunne and Nicholas G. Martin (2000). Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 78, 3, 524-536.

Collins, Francis S. (2006). The language of god, a scientist presents evidence for belief, New York: Free Press.

Kirk, K. M., J. M. Bailey, M. P. Dunne and N. G. Martin (2000). Measurement models for sexual orientation in a community twin sample. Behavior Genetics, 30, 4, 2000, 345-356.

Whitehead, Neil and Briar (1999). My Genes Made Me Do It! A Scientific Look at Sexual Orientation. Lafayette, Louisiana: Huntington House Press.

Whitehead, Neil (2006). "What do first ages of SSA or OSA tell us about their origins?" In NARTH Collected Papers.


* Dr. Steve Simon (in an email correspondence) noted quite appropriately that heritability is a measure of the ratio of two variances and is not a simple proportion. A heritability index and a proportion are calculated on different scales. In this case, however, both the data from the heritability index and the proportion support the conclusion that homosexuality is not hardwired (or simply biologically fated). Though Dr. Collins offered a 20% concordance for monozygotic twins, it should be noted that this figure is the proband concordance. This is mathematically correct. However, Dr. Neil Whitehead offered a correct pairwise concordance of 11%. For the lay audience, it should be understood that different answers will emerge with different models. However, the conclusion is the same: current data provides little evidence to support the conclusion that homosexuality is hardwired.


From http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

A little bit of nature, a little bit of nurture. You can see that aggression has 38% heritability, much higher than the maximum 30% that the doctor attributesto homosexuality. Yet humans control their aggression. Not arguing either way, but you asked for a study.