California propositions thread: Props 1,2,3,8,9,11,12 Pass, Props 4,5,6,7,10 fail

[purplehazze96]

Originally Posted by In The Line For VIIs

"Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired," Concludes Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head Of The Human Genome Project




By A. Dean Byrd, Ph.D, MBA, MPH




April 4, 2007 - Dr. Francis S. Collins, one of the world's leading scientists who works at the cutting edge of DNA, concluded that "there is an
inescapable component of heritability to many human behavioral traits. For virtually none of them is heredity ever close to predictive."






Dr. Francis S. Collins


In reviewing the heritability (influence of genetic factors) of personality traits, Dr. Collins referenced the estimates of the percentage of various human
personality traits that can be ascribed to heredity from the Bochard and McGue research.




The heritability estimates for personality traits were varied: General Cognitive Ability (50%), Extroversion (54%), Agreeableness (42%), Conscientiousness
(49%), Neuroticism (48%), Openness (57%), Aggression (38%) and Traditionalism (54%).




Kirk et al. (2000) in their research using a community-based cohort of Australian twins reported a heritability estimate of 30% for homosexuality. Whitehead
(1999, 2006) in his extensive review of the research cites 30% as the estimate of heritability for homosexuality as well, though he views the estimate as a
maximum.




Estimates of heritability are based upon careful analyses of studies conducted with identical twins. Such studies are important and lead to the conclusion
that heredity is important in many of these traits. It is important however, to note that even in such studies with identical twins, that heritability is not
to be confused as inevitability.




As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.




Dr. Collins succinctly reviewed the research on homosexuality and offers the following: "An area of particularly strong public interest is the genetic
basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in male homosexuality. However, the
likelihood that the identical twin of a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4 percent of males in the general population),
indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not
predeterminations."




Dr. Collins noted that environment, particularly childhood experiences as well as the role of free will choices affect all of us in profound ways. As
researchers discover increasing levels of molecular detail about inherited factors that underlie our personalities, it's critical that such data be used
to illuminate, not provide support to idealogues.




Citing such dangers, Dr. Collins referred to the book written by activist Dean Hamer who declared the discovery of the God Gene (this same author also is
associated with "discovering the gay gene").




Dr. Collins noted that the "evidence" in Hamer's book "grabbed headlines," but was "wildly overstated."




A reviewer in Scientific American suggested that Hamer's book on the God Gene should have been titled, "A Gene That Accounts for Less than One
Percent of the Variance Found in Scores on Psychological Questionnaires Designed to Measure a Factor Called Self-Transcendence, Which Can Signify Everything
from Belonging to the Green Party to Believing in ESP, According to One Unpublished, Unreplicated Study."




Unfortunately, much of the research in areas such as homosexuality, has been not only misrepresented in the media but by the scientists themselves through
the tendency to overestimate the quantitative contribution of their findings.




Perhaps the best example of this media misrepresentation was the two studies conducted by J. Michael Bailey. In Bailey's first study, he reported a
concordance rate of 52%. In a second study, Bailey reported a concordance of 20-37.5%, depending on how loosely you define homosexuality. The first study
received a great deal of press. The second study received almost no media attention.




Bailey himself acknowledged probable selection bias in his first study---he recruited in venues where "participants considered the sexual orientation of
their co-twins before agreeing to participate." The second study, using the Australian Twin Registry with its anonymous response format, made such bias
unlikely.




Regarding the contributions of genetics to areas such as homosexuality, Dr. Collins concluded, "Yes, we have all been dealt a particular set of cards,
and the cards will eventually be revealed. But how we play the hand is up to us." *






Bailey, Michael J., Michael P. Dunne and Nicholas G. Martin (2000). Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an
Australian twin sample. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 78, 3, 524-536.




Collins, Francis S. (2006). The language of god, a scientist presents evidence for belief, New York: Free Press.




Kirk, K. M., J. M. Bailey, M. P. Dunne and N. G. Martin (2000). Measurement models for sexual orientation in a community twin sample. Behavior Genetics, 30,
4, 2000, 345-356.




Whitehead, Neil and Briar (1999). My Genes Made Me Do It! A Scientific Look at Sexual Orientation. Lafayette, Louisiana: Huntington House Press.




Whitehead, Neil (2006). "What do first ages of SSA or OSA tell us about their origins?" In NARTH Collected Papers.






* Dr. Steve Simon (in an email correspondence) noted quite appropriately that heritability is a measure of the ratio of two variances and is not a simple
proportion. A heritability index and a proportion are calculated on different scales. In this case, however, both the data from the heritability index and
the proportion support the conclusion that homosexuality is not hardwired (or simply biologically fated). Though Dr. Collins offered a 20% concordance for
monozygotic twins, it should be noted that this figure is the proband concordance. This is mathematically correct. However, Dr. Neil Whitehead offered a
correct pairwise concordance of 11%. For the lay audience, it should be understood that different answers will emerge with different models. However, the
conclusion is the same: current data provides little evidence to support the conclusion that homosexuality is hardwired.

From http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.htmlhttp://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html




A little bit of nature, a little bit of nurture. You can see that aggression has 38% heritability, much higher than the maximum 30% that the doctor attributes
to homosexuality. Yet humans control their aggression. Not arguing either way, but you asked for a study.






just when i was ready to applaud you for responding in a timely manner with actual credible evidence to oppose the statements i made, you mention that you wereneutral, Oh You Mad or one of the other zealots should by the rights to your post

that's a great article, but in ways it supports my argument...what part of hereditary bypassed information is by choice? regardless its a very interestingstudy, you mentioned that humans have the ability to control their aggression, thats basically individuals acting on their aggression or not, i see that asacting on your homosexual urges or not, whether you act on it or not, its still there

 

[bangtcg]

ugh stupid ignorant people who get indoctrinated with ideas. google any peer reviewed articles on homosexual and sexual identity. let me make this verysimple for your ignorant domes.. i know its hard to recognize that homosexual is not a CHOICE because it would cripple your arguments but here we go:
webmd:

[h3]How Does a Person Know Their Sexual Orientation?[/h3]
For many people, their sexual orientation becomes evident to them during adolescence or young adulthood, and in many cases without any sexual experience. For example, homosexuals become aware that their sexual thoughts and activities focus on people of the same sex. It is possible, however, to have fantasies or to be curious about people of the same sex without being homosexual or bisexual, or choosing to act on these impulses/attractions.
[h3]Can a Person's Sexual Orientation Be Changed?[/h3]
Most experts agree that sexual orientation is not a choice and, therefore, cannot be changed. Some people who are homosexual or bisexual may hide their sexual orientation and/or live as heterosexuals to avoid the prejudice that exists against people who are homosexual and bisexual or to avoid their own moral dilemmas felt when their sexual orientation is incompatible with their personal beliefs.

beloved wiki

The American Psychiatric Association has stated "some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime."[sup][26][/sup] However, the American Psychological Association has stated "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."[27http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#cite_note-answers-26

a search result from Jouranl Watch http://www.jwatch.org/cgi...ity&x=0&y=0 (the subscription to thisjouranl is $78, so i dont have access to it)

• [h2]http://general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2004/326/7[/h2]

• • [h2]Medical Treatment of Homosexuality: Historical View[/h2]
    • March 26, 2004
    • Keith I. Marton, MD
    Until the 1970s, homosexuality was considered a psychiatric illness. Various treatments were used to change sexual orientation -- with little success. In 1992, homosexuality was . . .
    • Covering:
      • Smith G et al., BMJ 2004 Feb 21; 328:427-8.
      • King M et al., BMJ 2004 Feb 21; 328:429-32.
  • [h2]MALE HOMOSEXUALITY IS LINKED TO X CHROMOSOME.[/h2]
    • August 6, 1993
    • ALK
    How much of human behavior is genetic? This controversial question has recently been raised with regard to homosexuality, because of twin studies and reported structural . . .
    • Covering:
      • Hamer DH et al., Science 1993 Jul 16; 261:321327.
  • [h2]DOES MALE HOMOSEXUALITY HAVE A BIOLOGIC BASIS.[/h2]
    • September 17, 1991
    • ALK
    Homosexuality has been regarded as a social and psychological phenomenon. This report suggests that male homosexuality has a biologic basis.
    • Covering:
      • LeVay S., Science 1991 Aug 30; 253:10341037.

Sexualdifferentiation of the brain and behavior
Best Practice & Research Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 21, Issue 3, September 2007, Pages 431-444
!*%% F. Swaab DOI: doi:10.1016/j.beem.2007.04.003 (if you need to see table 2 i will upload the pdf. or if you have access to your universities articledatabase i can link you.)http://dx.doi.org.ezproxy...0.1016/j.beem.2007.04.003','doilink','scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes,directories=yes,toolbar=yes,menubar=yes,status=yes');doiWin.focus()">

Sexual orientation in humans is also determined during early development, under the influence of our genetic background and factors that influence the interactions between the sex hormones and the developing brain (see http://Table 2).

 

[da xplicit one]

It's IN YOUR GENES. You don't have a CHOICE - you can't alter your DNA.
Can you help that you DON'T like the taste of something? I can't help I don't like pickles, mustard and oysters, no matter how hard I want to likeit so I don't have to waste it, but my tastes just doesn't go. Can you help that you don't like role playing games or football? No, because why?You were embedded with certain TASTES from birth, from your DNA. You can't alter that. There may be some things you can alter, but you can't changethe way your senses work. If you're a straight guy, would you like the taste of a man inside of you? NO and why? Because that's the way your DNA is.You can't help it. Goodnight Election day number two that has made me note study yet again

.

 

[purplehazze96]

They aren't here anymore, i think once Oh You Mad abandoned the charge it was:

*gandolf*"fly you fools"*gandolf*

 

[untitled]

i knew it wasn't gonna pass...you just can't lump the struggle of civil rights and homosexual rights together and think its gonna be hunky dory...

 

[da xplicit one]

One of my friends, all throughout high school, he tried so hard to date girls (he had no idea at the time).. but wondered why he was never attracted to them tothe point of doing anything sexually. When he entered college and went away from a couple girls that were into him, it's then he found out why he wasnever attracted to them sexually - he's gay. It's not like he wanted that to happen, it was just his tastes given to him by birth. Why do you thinksome people act and look Gay? It's the way they were born. Some obviously don't have that "look", but that's because DNA can get messedup at any tiny point to make you different.

This country did a damn good job a long time ago, to brainwash people into not accepting people who are "different". Well you know what, everybodyis different, and we all know if everyone were the same, it would be the most boring thing ever.

So back to my friend, he hasn't even told his parents. You know WHY? Gays have to go through SO MUCH, and the disappointment from his parents is justsomething he doesn't want to deal with, at least right now. It's the baby boomers who are more brainwashed into the belief that Gay is wrong and blahblah. They not only have to go through so much with their family (which is huge enough), but with THE PUBLIC, treating them differently and way more harshlysince they are basically looked down upon, and it's really really sad. Do you have any emotions to not feel sorry for what they have to go through, andTHEN taking away their right to marry? For crying out loud.

 

[in yo nostril]

i told you idiots to leave the troll be. i bought it at first but then some of the things you said were a little too extreme.

 

[king of erv]

Here's another theory for you guys who don't believe people chose to be gay/lesbian.

It's scientific fact that there are certain fish and frogs that will actually change sexes/become homosexual in order to reduce a population when ashortage of food or other resources occurs. To me it seems very reasonable/logical that this is also a trait we humans have in order to keep the population incheck or just help the species survive in a sense.

What really bugged me about prop 8 was the fact that it was supported by women and minorities, i find it funny that these groups feel the need to discriminateon a gays/lesbians when a few years ago a woman couldn't even leave the kitchen and get a job or vote. Also for colored people that supported prop 8another smh, at one point they couldn't even walk on the same sidewalk as a white person and they still feel the need to deny someone rights that affectsthem in no way. (no offense to any girls or anyone else just using it as an example)

 

[purplehazze96]

Originally Posted by KING OF ERV

Here's another theory for you guys who don't believe people chose to be gay/lesbian.




It's scientific fact that there are certain fish and frogs that will actually change sexes/become homosexual in order to reduce a population when a
shortage of food or other resources occurs. To me it seems very reasonable/logical that this is also a trait we humans have in order to keep the population in
check or just help the species survive in a sense.

you're certainly entitled to your own beliefs but i can't do anything but laugh at that...Homosexuals have existed as far backas historic evidence can prove, its not some new phenomenon that started to occur when we first saw the effects of global warming or when we realized thereweren't enough DMP packages for everyone...thats about as serious as ill get in response to that

 

[bangtcg]

Originally Posted by purplehazze96

Originally Posted by KING OF ERV

Here's another theory for you guys who don't believe people chose to be gay/lesbian.




It's scientific fact that there are certain fish and frogs that will actually change sexes/become homosexual in order to reduce a population when a
shortage of food or other resources occurs. To me it seems very reasonable/logical that this is also a trait we humans have in order to keep the population in
check or just help the species survive in a sense.

you're certainly entitled to your own beliefs but i can't do anything but laugh at that...Homosexuals have existed as far back as historic evidence can prove, its not some new phenomenon that started to occur when we first saw the effects of global warming or when we realized there weren't enough DMP packages for everyone...thats about as serious as ill get in response to that

yeah... unfortunately KING OF ERV, the theory that homosexual behavior exists so that there would be population control is very weak. the numberof homosexuals are only about 7-12% i think. humans reproduce and multiply at an exponential rate rate so homosexuals really don't do a dent in that.plus, homosexuals are able to reproduce.

 

[purplehazze96]

^you're a better man then me

 

[pj and bompton]

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card aboutslavery

 

[king of erv]

Yeah i know that my theory doesn't hold much weight, but i was just adding it to get some opinions. Also the dude who says that humans multiply at anexponential rate you have to remember that over the last few decades the average life expectancy has grown dramatically so that's why homosexuals put nodent in the population but if we didn't have all the modern medicine, access to easy food, and other resources would the earths human population really beat 6 billion.

 

[kash55]

Originally Posted by PJ and Bompton

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card about slavery

I tend to agree with what this man is saying.

 

[the blue cape]

purplehazze96 wrote:

---

you're certainly entitled to your own beliefs but i can't do anything but laugh at that...Homosexuals have existed as far back as historic evidence can prove, its not some new phenomenon that started to occur when we first saw the effects of global warming or when we realized there weren't enough DMP packages for everyone...thats about as serious as ill get in response to that

...

KING OR ERV brought up an interesting theory though.

 

[winstondon]

Originally Posted by kash55

Originally Posted by PJ and Bompton

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card about slavery

I tend to agree with what this man is saying.

go end your life......the black struggle has NOTHING to do w/ homosexuals..... you act like itspreventing homosss to be together or something.....its just preventing them from being married and if you knew anything about blks you would know that wereally look down on homosexuality.....thats why the down low phenomenon is hurting our community because gay men are hiding it from their wives and bringingthem diseases and stuff

 

[lazy b]

Originally Posted by WinstonDon

Originally Posted by kash55

Originally Posted by PJ and Bompton

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card about slavery

I tend to agree with what this man is saying.

go end your life......the black struggle has NOTHING to do w/ homosexuals..... you act like its preventing homosss to be together or something.....its just preventing them from being married and if you knew anything about blks you would know that we really look down on homosexuality.....thats why the down low phenomenon is hurting our community because gay men are hiding it from their wives and bringing them diseases and stuff

Hit the nail on the head. Additionally, the Church is very influential in the black community so if God is against homosexuality his devoutfollowers are also going to be against it.

And please, do not compare the black struggle to that of homosexuals.

 

[dublbagn]

This thread is hilarious....so many people being closed minded to other peoples struggles....most of you sound like you should have voted republican....lol

 

[itz rolli]

Originally Posted by WinstonDon

Originally Posted by kash55

Originally Posted by PJ and Bompton

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card about slavery

I tend to agree with what this man is saying.

go end your life......the black struggle has NOTHING to do w/ homosexuals..... you act like its preventing homosss to be together or something.....its just preventing them from being married and if you knew anything about blks you would know that we really look down on homosexuality.....thats why the down low phenomenon is hurting our community because gay men are hiding it from their wives and bringing them diseases and stuff

how would you feel if everyone were allowed to get married except black people?

 

[winstondon]

Originally Posted by itz rOLLi

Originally Posted by WinstonDon

Originally Posted by kash55

Originally Posted by PJ and Bompton

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card about slavery

I tend to agree with what this man is saying.

go end your life......the black struggle has NOTHING to do w/ homosexuals..... you act like its preventing homosss to be together or something.....its just preventing them from being married and if you knew anything about blks you would know that we really look down on homosexuality.....thats why the down low phenomenon is hurting our community because gay men are hiding it from their wives and bringing them diseases and stuff

how would you feel if everyone were allowed to get married except black people?

you sound dumb as hell.....how can you compare race to sexual preference....it's not the same buddy

 

[ag 47]

Originally Posted by purplehazze96

Originally Posted by KING OF ERV

Here's another theory for you guys who don't believe people chose to be gay/lesbian.




It's scientific fact that there are certain fish and frogs that will actually change sexes/become homosexual in order to reduce a population when a
shortage of food or other resources occurs. To me it seems very reasonable/logical that this is also a trait we humans have in order to keep the population in
check or just help the species survive in a sense.

you're certainly entitled to your own beliefs but i can't do anything but laugh at that...Homosexuals have existed as far back as historic evidence can prove, its not some new phenomenon that started to occur when we first saw the effects of global warming or when we realized there weren't enough DMP packages for everyone...thats about as serious as ill get in response to that

I'm saying though. There were homosexuls since the biblical days. Gay is not a fad.

 

[Los Angeles]

Let the gays be happy

 

[703 hwy]

EEEEWWWWWWWW

 

[javier5857]

Originally Posted by WinstonDon

Originally Posted by itz rOLLi

Originally Posted by WinstonDon

Originally Posted by kash55

Originally Posted by PJ and Bompton

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card about slavery

I tend to agree with what this man is saying.

go end your life......the black struggle has NOTHING to do w/ homosexuals..... you act like its preventing homosss to be together or something.....its just preventing them from being married and if you knew anything about blks you would know that we really look down on homosexuality.....thats why the down low phenomenon is hurting our community because gay men are hiding it from their wives and bringing them diseases and stuff

how would you feel if everyone were allowed to get married except black people?

you sound dumb as hell.....how can you compare race to sexual preference....it's not the same buddy

No, YOU sound dumb as hell. its a civil rights issue, just like the blacks had.

Race and Sexual preference are something that arent chosen and due to one of them, they are being discriminated against and having the RIGHT of marriage takenfrom them on something that is not a choice.

who gives a damn if you look down upon it? are these married gay couples knocking on your doors asking you to convert? are these gay couples attacking yourkids?

 

[outacontrol music]

Originally Posted by javier5857

Originally Posted by WinstonDon

Originally Posted by itz rOLLi

Originally Posted by WinstonDon

Originally Posted by kash55

Originally Posted by PJ and Bompton

so sad that 70% of black people voted yes on 8...funny how some of those people forget 40 years ago yet will still be quick to pull the race card about slavery

I tend to agree with what this man is saying.

go end your life......the black struggle has NOTHING to do w/ homosexuals..... you act like its preventing homosss to be together or something.....its just preventing them from being married and if you knew anything about blks you would know that we really look down on homosexuality.....thats why the down low phenomenon is hurting our community because gay men are hiding it from their wives and bringing them diseases and stuff

how would you feel if everyone were allowed to get married except black people?

you sound dumb as hell.....how can you compare race to sexual preference....it's not the same buddy

No, YOU sound dumb as hell. its a civil rights issue, just like the blacks had.

Race and Sexual preference are something that arent chosen and due to one of them, they are being discriminated against and having the RIGHT of marriage taken from them on something that is not a choice.

who gives a damn if you look down upon it? are these married gay couples knocking on your doors asking you to convert? are these gay couples attacking your kids?

YOU

CANNOT

BE

SERIOUS...


People CHOOSE to be gay.

You are in SERIOUS denial if you think contrarily.