California propositions thread: Props 1,2,3,8,9,11,12 Pass, Props 4,5,6,7,10 fail

[th0mas cr0wn]

Originally Posted by Smokey1212

To all those who are for equal rights for all people (democracy). Here is a picture for you. Gay marriage will pass sooner or later as you can tell from these CNN exit polls. Our new younger generation is forward thinking here in California and we will soon get past this step backwards we took today. Look at how the younger demographic voted on Prop 8.

you are absolutely right

 

[chronos1296]

Originally Posted by DL2352

I seriously need to know from you Yes on Prop 8 voters... Do you guys seriously think it is okay for the majority to strip away fundamental rights from a group of minorities through the constitution just because you feel they shouldn't have that right due to your own personal values? I really need to know this.

You are trying to get into a binary argument with either a religious nut case or some hillbilly idiot... both of which have somehow let theMormons who TO THIS DAY practice polygamy, yet have convinced these people that they are voting to save "traditional marriage." I am in awe watchingthe ignorance of those who live in my home state of California... I for one will pray for the day that these fools pack up and leave Cali and our constitutionbe. I hear Texas is a great state that welcomes this type of ignorance with open arms.

 

[sohi 23]

Final word about Prop 2:
This is my opinion in a nutshell about it, but I can't explain it as well as this:

Method Man said:

What's interesting about this is that the frame of reference we're dealing with here, the American diet, is so far out of line with the rest of the world. It's not that the "northeastern liberal elite," to throw out a Palinism, are imposing a vegan diet on people in other nations - it's simply too costly to eat meat as frequently and frivolously as is commonplace within the United States - and we ought to ask why that is. The truth of the matter is that the environmental costs of a predominantly meat-based diet have been essentially subsidized by the government already - so the prices, for American consumers, have been artificially low. There are costs incurred with respect to methane emissions, runoff, groundwater contamination, thus and so that, traditionally, have simply been absorbed indirectly as public health costs.

So, what's interesting about this is that those of us who either abstain from our minimize our intake of livestock/dairy/poultry products must still bear the costs of "American excess," subsidizing an unhealthy and, frankly, environmentally unsustainable diet for the privileged. Everyone on the planet simply CAN NOT live the way Americans do - the Earth doesn't accommodate it. Suburbanization facilitated via individual, fossil-fuel burning vehicles just won't work on the global scale. Every human being on Earth eating animal protein as part of every single meal simply does not work on the global scale. Eventually, the costs of that will catch up with us and, in other nations, that's already largely the case. People cannot AFFORD to eat meat as part of every meal, even if they wish to do so.

The standard we're applying here, this sense of "normalcy" that's comprised our frame of reference, is normative for us at this point in our history, but completely incongruous with the rest of the world or, even, our own history - despite the specious tenets of the Atikins diet.

Were it not for the need to feed legions of livestock for the purpose of slaughter, we'd have far more agricultural resources to devote to fruits, vegetables, thus and so. We'd have reduced environmental and public health costs. All of this offers benefits to families everywhere, it's just a matter of effecting a responsible lifestyle change - just as we've moved from wastefulness to recycling to conservation and advanced to more fuel efficient technology and design standards. Families aren't FORCED to buy Chevy Volts to adapt to someone else's value system. If we're dealing with a true double-entry accounting system here, we need to make sure that the global, societal, and local COSTS of excessive meat consumption are factored into our equation. As of this moment, they're still artificially low, if anything.

That said - there's a reason why your your average fast food hamburger contains soy-based filler. More and more, people ARE starting to bear and evaluate these costs.. so although I think the expenses we might attach to this particular proposal are, really, nominal, the costs associated with animal food products in general will almost certainly rise regardless. IS that a negative? When you look at it in terms of health and sustainability issues, I would say no.

This prop. is a step in the right direction for the entire US.

 

[GreenNGold89]

I voted NO on Prop 4 and 8. I really hope 8 doesn't get passed. IMO it's just wrong to take those rights away from someone. If a gay person wants toget married, why not? It's THEIR CHOICE and we shouldn't take it away from them IMO. But we'll see.

 

[5thgearidah]

Originally Posted by RKO2004

Originally Posted by 5thGearidah

Originally Posted by RKO2004

Originally Posted by 5thGearidah

if you must think of it like that...think of it as God's way of avoiding over crowding. We honestly dont need everyone in the world reproducing
and if you must think its a sin, its not your job to say what someone else can do...that is GODS JOB...not YOU

His way of preventing over crowding? You cannot be effing serious. He said "be fruitful and multiply". Why would He go against that?

And I'm sure death would take care of things. And don't say their isn't enough food or water. There is. We were taught to eat to live. There is plenty of food. Check peoples' cabinets and fridges.

And your right it is His job to judge but don't we live in a system where judges and juries send people to be fried in a chair or injected with poison?

But whose judging? Everyone I've seen are giving their opinions. When you give your opinion on murdering being wrong aren't you judging too?

im not talking only in this country. China and India are overcrowded...there are severe food shortages around the world.
How about you put the bible down and pick up a newspaper

Bro my bible is down. There are many places on this earth to live. Man made borders. And as far as a food shortage, other countries that are well off need to spread the wealth and help other human beings. The bible is down. That was straight human reasoning to human reasoning. We have so much food and water here it sits on shelves. There isn't a food shortage. There is a common sense shortage. I'll take your silence.

ehh, thats not entirely correct...were getting into a subject that is a little more complex than that. Water is something else that isntplentiful. I suggest you do a little research on this subject

 

[tsamshox]

Seriously, if you think prop 2 will only bring about an increase in produce cost you are mistaken......

+ Dudes actin' like ya'll gonna be paying $5 for a chicken wing

 

[kb8sandiego]

Originally Posted by 5thGearidah

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

Originally Posted by DL2352

I seriously need to know from you Yes on Prop 8 voters... Do you guys seriously think it is okay for the majority to strip away fundamental rights from a group of minorities through the constitution just because you feel they shouldn't have that right due to your own personal values? I really need to know this.

What my values are ain't your problem. And no, you don't need to know. Why? So you can justify your values against ours? So you can judge us yet complain about why we voted yes? I can respect those that Vote No on 8. That's their values. I don't understand why you can't respect ours.

What if the majority of the country felt interracial marriage was wrong...it would be right to ban interracial marriage?
its ok to not agree w/ something or someone...but to tell them they cant do something because you dont agree (when it doesnt affect you at all) is

But to tell someone that they cannot vote yes based on their values is just as

 

[rko2004]

Oh so nobody saw this huh?

Originally Posted by 5thGearidah

if you must think of it like that...think of it as God's way of avoiding over crowding. We honestly dont need everyone in the world reproducing
and if you must think its a sin, its not your job to say what someone else can do...that is GODS JOB...not YOU

MY RESPONSE

His way of preventing over crowding? You cannot be effing serious. He said "be fruitful and multiply". Why would He go against that?

And I'm sure death would take care of things. And don't say their isn't enough food or water. There is. We were taught to eat to live. There is plenty of food. Check peoples' cabinets and fridges.

And your right it is His job to judge but don't we live in a system where judges and juries send people to be fried in a chair or injected with poison?

But whose judging? Everyone I've seen are giving their opinions. When you give your opinion on murdering being wrong aren't you judging too?

And another thing. If its truly natural then would males be able to carry children as well? Why can't men breast feed? Why doesn't a mans chest fill with milk for the baby? Why does a vagina lubricate but an !*#@ doesn't? Why would it be natural to make a life of putting a penis which has a open wound in a place of human droppings and is filled with it? Why do people compare human homosexuality to animal homosexuality which when Humans are at the top of the chain of life and knows better and has the ability to reason?

You ask for equal rights and what not but resort to name calling?

You are trying to get into a binary argument with either a religious nut case or some hillbilly idiot... both of which have somehow let the Mormons who TO THIS DAY practice polygamy, yet have convinced these people that they are voting to save "traditional marriage." I am in awe watching the ignorance of those who live in my home state of California... I for one will pray for the day that these fools pack up and leave Cali and our constitution be. I hear Texas is a great state that welcomes this type of ignorance with open arms.

Somebody needs to take tolerance&kindness 101

ehh, thats not entirely correct...were getting into a subject that is a little more complex than that. Water is something else that isnt plentiful. I suggest you do a little research on this subject
BUT with all the money spent on wars and other non sense we could put that money to good use. Purifying water around the world and dedicatingfunding for nature and agriculture would be a good use. Agree? Oh and we could used the money and start a world wide program to rid of homelessness. But non ofwhich will happen in this current world.

 

[sohi 23]

To me Prop 8 is as black and white as it gets.

Take away rights to certain individuals vs. everyone is given equal treatment.


IMO it doesn't really matter if you think it is wrong, don't agree with it, whatever.
It's just not fair to take away rights.

 

[pinoyxboi]

mixed emotions today. America has taken a step forward while at the same time if Proposition 8 passes, California will have taken a step backward.

 

[krapjnad]

Originally Posted by TBONE95860

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

Originally Posted by DL2352

I seriously need to know from you Yes on Prop 8 voters... Do you guys seriously think it is okay for the majority to strip away fundamental rights from a group of minorities through the constitution just because you feel they shouldn't have that right due to your own personal values? I really need to know this.

What my values are ain't your problem. And no, you don't need to know. Why? So you can justify your values against ours? So you can judge us yet complain about why we voted yes? I can respect those that Vote No on 8. That's their values. I don't understand why you can't respect ours.

He does have some good points here

48% in
Yes = 53%
No = 47%

i have to disagree. i respect that he is entitled to an opinion, but i don't yet respect his opinion because he refuses to explain hisreasoning. i think that's what dl2352 was asking for... an open dialogue about the fundamental reasons behind his vote. for what it's worth, i thinkyou earn respect through logic and reasoning.

when i disagree with his stance on prop 8, we are having a discussion where at the end of the day, we can just decide that the other person is dumb. no bigdeal.

when he disagrees with prop 8, he is casting a vote where at the end of the day, people may be denied rights given to others solely based on their sexualorientation.

 

[danikerhino]

Originally Posted by pinoyXboi

mixed emotions today. America has taken a step forward while at the same time if Proposition 8 passes, California will have taken a step backward.

Naw, I'm just taking a side-step from gay marriage.

 

[moe200069]

Originally Posted by Stork

Originally Posted by DL2352

Originally Posted by Stork

Originally Posted by moe200069

Originally Posted by Smokey1212

Wow, look at the counties that are voting Yes on Prop 8

. Damn Inland Cali.

Looks like California will be the first state to use its constitution to take right away from people.

I'm disappointed in this state which just gave the majority of its votes to a black president, then goes and does this.

can the folks on NT who voted YES on proposition 8 explain the rationale behind it? all the propaganda about "religious freedom" and forcing schools to teach students about %$!#%/gay issues was complete horse****

im gonna be glad when these elections are over, i'm tired of that Gavin Newsome "whether you like it or not" commercial

what's there to explain? it's gross and disgusting, if you are religious you believe it's a sin, and if you aren't religious then what do you believe in evolution? how does homosexuality fit into evolution? it doesn't, it's an abnormal state of mind. and to allow gay marriage is basically saying "hey it's ok if want to be gay and marry". marriage is something that the CHURCH created, it's not a right between homosexuals and never was. religion is always going to be intertwined with politics, this state was founded by religious people, look on American currency "IN GOD WE TRUST".....

you can do whatever you want in your bedroom behind close doors, but it certinley doesn't need to be in my kids text books when they go to school.

The fundamental flaw of your argument is that you believe this is a religious issue. It is not. You can be against homosexuality all you want but there is a line that is crossed when the majority decides it's okay to take away a fundamental right of the minority just because they feel "it's wrong". There is going to be a constitutional AMENDMENT that will deny a part of society the rights everyone else has. You can believe that marriage is a religious institution and I won't disagree with that. What you have to understand though is that not everyone shares YOUR particular religion. It seems like those who have voted for Prop 8 have forgotten that there is a separation of church and state in this nation and it's a DAMN shame if this passes.

It's both an religious and political issue, look who's backing prop 8...hella money coming from the mormon's(check google for stats if you don't believe me). it should have never been their right to marry, and now it won't be

.

Yes on 8!

this should NOT be a matter of whether or not the church wants to accept marriage between those who identify as *#%+%/gay. what folks overlook isthe fact that people can get married without the church being involved (i.e. people getting married at city hall) and prop 8 eliminates this right.
moreover, there are financial/tax incentives that come with marriage, so its no longer just a "religious" or political issue, but also, a financialissue.

also, stork mentioned that the church created marriage...really though? the chuch created the idea of "marriage"? you telling me that innon-christian/catholic countries, they don't believe in the concept of marriage?

a question i have for stork in regards to the inevitable connection of church and state is that he/she argues that the state was founded by religious people;but were these not people seeking to escape religious persecution?...is this not a classic case in which the oppressed becomes the oppressor?


on another note:

yes on 8; no on 8...but what about the Measure about Mervyn's?

 

[sohi 23]

Yes on 8 has declared victory

 

[smokey1212]

Originally Posted by SoHi 23

To me Prop 8 is as black and white as it gets.

Take away rights to certain individuals vs. everyone is given equal treatment.


IMO it doesn't really matter if you think it is wrong, don't agree with it, whatever.
It's just not fair to take away rights.

This is exactly right. It is not a Democracy if everyone is not treated equally. That is the long and short of it. No matter what your values are, no matterhow you feel about homosexuality and how "natural" it is. These are people, and their rights as people in the United States of America are beingtaken away. When you step back and look at it, it is a very depressing look at history repeating itself once again.

 

[javier5857]

Originally Posted by SoHi 23

To me Prop 8 is as black and white as it gets.

Take away rights to certain individuals vs. everyone is given equal treatment.


IMO it doesn't really matter if you think it is wrong, don't agree with it, whatever.
It's just not fair to take away rights.

Seriously, my mom dad & stepmom voted yes..there was no getting to them.

And the Yes rally is infuriating me even more, this doesnt even effect them, the $+$% is wrong with them.

I hate religion.

 

[th0mas cr0wn]

direct link to where you're getting these updates from?

 

[dl2352]

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

Originally Posted by DL2352

I seriously need to know from you Yes on Prop 8 voters... Do you guys seriously think it is okay for the majority to strip away fundamental rights from a group of minorities through the constitution just because you feel they shouldn't have that right due to your own personal values? I really need to know this.

What my values are ain't your problem. And no, you don't need to know. Why? So you can justify your values against ours? So you can judge us yet complain about why we voted yes? I can respect those that Vote No on 8. That's their values. I don't understand why you can't respect ours.

Sorry if I stated it in an unclear manner but I am not questioning what your values are. I can respect anyone's values. It's when youcross the line by forcing your own values on others when there is a problem. The last time I checked, there was a separation of church and state and Prop 8 isa clear violation of that. Using religion as your basis to discriminate against a minority portion of society THROUGH THE CONSTITUTION is wrong.

It's not like I'm out there marching in gay pride parades and waving the rainbow flag or anything. I consider myself a Christian too but I don'tthink it's in my pay grade to be judging people for the way they live and deciding what they can or can't do. It's modern day segregation in myeyes. It's 2008 and we live in the progressive state of California. It's extremely disheartening to think such a regressive measure is about to gothrough.

 

[kobe fan]

YES ON 8 FTW!

They already have their domestic partnership law.

 

[sohi 23]

The news

The organization known as "Yes on 8" has declared victory.


This site too:
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/elections/vote08/results

 

[tsamshox]

Yes on 8 just passed.....

 

[smokey1212]

Originally Posted by TH0MAS CR0WN

direct link to where you're getting these updates from?

http://http://www.cnn.com/ELECTI...lts/individual/#val=CAI01

 

[GreenNGold89]

Originally Posted by SoHi 23

Yes on 8 has declared victory

I can't believe it passed. The old people that rallied for yes annoyed the *+%$ out of me here in San Luis Obispo. I don't understand how it affectsthem at all. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but I find this complete %*@+%#*@. It doesn't affect me in anyway, but I fell bad for thegay community.

Hopefully it can get overturned in the future or something. Any info on prop 4?

 

[kb8sandiego]

Originally Posted by krapjnad

Originally Posted by TBONE95860

Originally Posted by KB8sandiego

Originally Posted by DL2352

I seriously need to know from you Yes on Prop 8 voters... Do you guys seriously think it is okay for the majority to strip away fundamental rights from a group of minorities through the constitution just because you feel they shouldn't have that right due to your own personal values? I really need to know this.

What my values are ain't your problem. And no, you don't need to know. Why? So you can justify your values against ours? So you can judge us yet complain about why we voted yes? I can respect those that Vote No on 8. That's their values. I don't understand why you can't respect ours.

He does have some good points here

48% in
Yes = 53%
No = 47%

i have to disagree. i respect that he is entitled to an opinion, but i don't yet respect his opinion because he refuses to explain his reasoning. i think that's what dl2352 was asking for... an open dialogue about the fundamental reasons behind his vote. for what it's worth, i think you earn respect through logic and reasoning.

when i disagree with his stance on prop 8, we are having a discussion where at the end of the day, we can just decide that the other person is dumb. no big deal.

when he disagrees with prop 8, he is casting a vote where at the end of the day, people may be denied rights given to others solely based on their sexual orientation.

It doesn't get anymore black and white and clear and cut for me to say that I voted based on my values. Obviously, me voting yes shouldexplain to you that I voted based on my faith.

What do you want me to say? That I hate homosexuals? Are you going to put words in my mouth? Are you going to accuse me of being a horrible person because Ichoose to vote on my OWN PERSONAL MORALS. Yet you're going to judge me based on your OWN PERSONAL MORALS because it doesn't agree with yours.

The hypocrisy is outrageous.

 

[alejanz28]

Originally Posted by Kobe Fan

YES ON 8 FTW!

They already have their domestic partnership law.