Former Christians: What Made You a Skeptic?

[rko2004]

Originally Posted by Russ tha G

God doesn't determined what we do. In my opinion, God knows our pain and frustration. He knows what we're thinking. But maybe just maybe He has a bigger plan, a better place for us in mind after this world.

That logic is essentially the foundation for a strong anti-Christian argument. The idea that God is all powerful and controls everybody's destiny cannot coexist with a theory that God allows free will. When good things happen, it's a blessing from God. When bad things happen, God isn't accountable... it's ridiculous and is founded off no logical reasoning.

Not to mention that the fantastical stories in the Bible are scientifically impossible. Star Wars is a story that has more likelihood of becoming true. Space stations are more real than parting a sea or walking on water.

Christianity was established as a means of social control, and it provides some good guidelines. Sadly, Christians tend to have this disgusting holier-than-thou attitude if you're not one of them - which is anti-Christian in itself. My gf is relatively devout. I went to church with her for Easter. Seeing all these people (we went to a BIG church) losing their minds and dancing and chanting to music and speeches about something that is not accepted by the majority of the planet is flabbergasting.


In short
How can you not doubt your views? Other religions exist and people die for their beliefs, and they are completely against your own. (This applies vice-versa, too). How can both of you be right? You can't be. One of you (at least) has to be wrong. Chances are, if neither of you can actually prove your views and believe it based solely off faith - not fact, you probably are both wrong.

I'm not anti-Christian, I don't believe any religion is valid.


My honest answer to you is... I don't have the answer. I don't know what God is thinking. I know He judges the heart. But maybe its us who take thingsout of context and smear the image of God.

As for blessings. Whose to truly say in what way God blesses us. I try to thank God through good and bad times for still having a breath in me to make a changefor the better in my life. That's why its called faith though. Non of us really no for sure if there is a God/Jesus. But I do know my faith has help put mein a better place in my life and for that I'm thankful.

As far as destiny. I believe God knows all of our possible twist and turns in life. The final decision of what direction to go in is up to us so ultimately itis us through a chain of events who decide our fate. That's opinion though.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by ps2child

Originally Posted by PhilBalla09

for the christians http://iamsecond.com/

some great testimonies

nice. thats what folks is missing. testimony reveals his work.

Religion isn't the only thing has solved people's problems. %$#*, than medicine is good and Einstien is Jesus, cause medicine hass saved far many morepeople than religion.

 

[buggz05]

Originally Posted by SiMPLYDiMPLY

i think i was always a skeptic. at 7 years old when i had to make my communion i refused to do confession with a priest... i was like... if there is an omniscient God then why do i have to confess to a priest? kinda funny how it foreshadowed my future beliefs. i used to be an atheist.... but actually after getting a little education i found faith. i just resent religion and my views are unorthodox.

That's whats up.

Kind of the same for me. When I was young and went to church they portrayed God as one who would stone you to death if you disobeyed your parents (atleast mystepmom did). I knew back then that that was impossible, that God loves people. And that's pretty much whereI'm at today. Disagreeing with church, and agreeing with God.





AND YOUR A FOOL if you think Ghandi isn't on God's TOP 3 Swag List of the New Millennium.







Just a little story for some contrast:

A few years ago, my life was headed in the completely wrong direction by choice. I was doin %!%! that bad guys do on TV. I was literally sick in the head. The fire in my soul was fueled off of hate and evil. I KNEW God was on my back, but I refused to acknowledge him. Itried my hardest to stay away from God and religion because I knew it would take me away from the worldly things that I enjoyed and loved. I'm a prettyignorant dude. I'm stubborn as all hell. And if I don't want to believe in something, it takes a miracle to change my ways. But a couple years ago, abreaking point opened where I knew I was going to have to fight my hardest to keep myself away from spiritualism. I tried HARD believe me. But God set me on apath that I couldn't ignore. What surprised me was, that he set me on a path AWAY from the church and religion -AND CLOSER to Him. He gave me signs I couldn't ignore, piece by piece...pieces that fit together perfectly that I had felt since I was a littlechild, even though I had never seen them before in my life (I'm sure that doesn't make sense).

Anyways, God is Good. Church is Bad.

Yosef > Ghandi > Jesus

^Lucifer fits in there somewhere

I'm not gonna do it to'emthough

 

[wooly willy]

I talked to priests/ministers/preachers etc for months about God, the Bible, the church every topic you can think about. At the end, it seemed like none ofthem were truly sure about what they themselves were really worshiping. Time and time again I would ask about the trinity and the true nature of God but thebelief has so many holes and discrepancies in it that they didn't know what they were saying at the end. I came to the conclusion that if God is trulyjust, loving, and merciful then He wouldn't base our salvation on a doctrine that does not logically make sense.

EDIT: I found this video and it really changed my life

 

[moonmaster3]

Originally Posted by Wooly Willy

I talked to priests/ministers/preachers etc for months about God, the Bible, the church every topic you can think about. At the end, it seemed like none of them were truly sure about what they themselves were really worshiping. Time and time again I would ask about the trinity and the true nature of God but the belief has so many holes and discrepancies in it that they didn't know what they were saying at the end. I came to the conclusion that if God is truly just, loving, and merciful then He wouldn't base our salvation on a doctrine that does not logically make sense.

EDIT: I found this video and it really changed my life

1) That video was TERRIBLe. 2) That video had an agenda, if I tried hard enough I could make the same type of video with a rebuttal against Islam. 3) Whoeverwrote that song has no idea how Christianity works, or why the sacrifice was necessary for Christianity 4) Just because Jesus dies doesn't mean there'sno one running the universe 5) That is because of the idea of the Holy Trinity, I don't necessarily believe in it, but if that song wants a Christiananswer, there it is. Even without the Son, there is the the Father and the Holy Ghost, question answered. 6) What kind of religious heads were you talking to?Sure they were religious heads, but that DOES NOT MAKE THEM EDUCATED. What you need to do is start talking to Christian apologetics with Ph.D's, not somelocal preacher. 7) Based off whose logic? Even if it doesn't make sense based off human logic, you can't assume it doesn't make sense on God'slogic. Tha'ts like trying to explain to a cockroach how math works. We are the cockroaches. 8 ) I'm not even Christian. 9) To Christians, that crossrepresents Christ's SACRIFICE, whoever is singing that song is assuming something entirely different about the meaning of that cross to Christians. Sure,it can be looked on as a piece of evil since He died on it, but that isn't what Christians view it as...so that argument has no basis.

 

[moonmaster3]

double post

 

[wooly willy]

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Originally Posted by Wooly Willy

1) That video was TERRIBLe. 2) That video had an agenda, if I tried hard enough I could make the same type of video with a rebuttal against Islam. 3) Whoever wrote that song has no idea how Christianity works, or why the sacrifice was necessary for Christianity 4) Just because Jesus dies doesn't mean there's no one running the universe 5) That is because of the idea of the Holy Trinity, I don't necessarily believe in it, but if that song wants a Christian answer, there it is. Even without the Son, there is the the Father and the Holy Ghost, question answered. 6) What kind of religious heads were you talking to? Sure they were religious heads, but that DOES NOT MAKE THEM EDUCATED. What you need to do is start talking to Christian apologetics with Ph.D's, not some local preacher. 7) Based off whose logic? Even if it doesn't make sense based off human logic, you can't assume it doesn't make sense on God's logic. Tha'ts like trying to explain to a cockroach how math works. We are the cockroaches. 8 ) I'm not even Christian. 9) To Christians, that cross represents Christ's SACRIFICE, whoever is singing that song is assuming something entirely different about the meaning of that cross to Christians. Sure, it can be looked on as a piece of evil since He died on it, but that isn't what Christians view it as...so that argument has no basis

First, I just want to apologize if I offended you in anyway. I was just giving my opinion like everyone else in this post, I was not trying tomake you upset in any shape or form. I want to answer a couple points you posted.

1) The men I was talking to were educated Christian scholars. I go to ASU and I (literally) went to almost every church in the area and talked to the leader ofthe church. As a matter of fact, the Catholic priest I spoke to held a PhD and was a very intelligent guy. I still go and have conversations with him once in awhile. However, no matter how eloquent they were, none of them could speak on the Trinity enough for it to make sense. Sure I got the normal Father, Son andHoly Ghost but they could not tell me how it works. Is it 3 in 1? How could they all function as one if they are complete seperate beings? When Jesus peace beupon him died, was there only 2 gods? I got the same answer from each one of the men I spoke to: "God works in mysterious ways".

2.) You asked based off what logic. Of course you and I are human beings so I mean by human logic. If God, the all-knowing, the all mighty, and all powerfulcreator of the universe and all that is in it created mankind, He knows how we work better than we do. As humans, we naturally function off of logicalreasoning. We question how things work and why things happen. Not only that, however, but it has to make sense to us. Now God, knowing full well how weoperate, would not base our salvation on a concept that does not logically (for a human, not God) make sense otherwise He is not truly just. If our salvationwas really based on accepting Jesus, a man who worshipped the Lord, as God then atleast God would have mentioned it explicitly in the Bible. I told the men Ispoke to this and they read me abstract verses that could be interpreted in anyway however they could not tell me one verse Jesus clearly says "worshipme, I am God"

btw, that debate video posted earlier was really good thanks for that

 

[trasoul82]

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Originally Posted by davidisgodly

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Long debate about the Jesus resurrection, but its interesting. Mike Licona is a good apologetic to look at. For a good atheist perspective, I recommend Richard Carrier.

Anyone else watching this?

It's like a drama. I'm hooked. Btw, its about 4 hrs long.

Thank you for taking the time to watch some of the debate, this isn't no Zeitgeist *+*%#*$%. THere is a debate between Mike Licona vs Richard Carrier that is really good. Licona uses his same speech from this one, but Carrier gives great rebuttals. Again, a lot of people in here are talking out of their #%* as to why they don't believe.

That really wasn't a good way to start up a debate. "Professional medical opinion that Jesus died as a result" of crucifixion was presented as"evidence". You have got to be kidding me. I would have watched more if the debate hadn't gotten off to such a rocky start. At the end of the dayI believe more genuinely fear eternal damnation more than they truly believe that Jesus rose from the dead or died for sin that they hadn't committed yet.To believe in Christianity, you must also believe that most people are damned before they swim into their mother's egg. This means God creates most of usto go to hell. What kind of sick game is that? Heaven shouldn't be a twisted game of musical chairs. Also, are people who have never heard of Jesus exemptfrom believing? Or will the baseless "everyone is given a chance to turn to Christ" argument be used again? One thing's for sure, and that isthat Christianity is going to be around for a while. Any organization that can brush off a worldwide child molestation scandal like that has a pretty solidfoundation. I know all Christians aren't Catholics, but Catholicism makes up a large chunk of Christianity. Let me guess: "God was giving those kidsadversity to overcome so that they can be stronger." Or how about: "Things like this result from us all being sinners, and bad things have beenallowed to happen once sin was brought into the world by man disobeying God." I love that last argument, because it requires that the all-knowing God hadno idea that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which leads me to another question: How can the original sineven be considered a "sin" when Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between right and wrong (good and evil)? God is painted by Christianityas some crazy cosmic being who sat in isolation for all of eternity until he got bored and decided to created a cosmic drama to keep himself entertained.I'm not saying that there is no reason to at least hope there is a higher power. But "God", as he is portrayed by Christianity is absolutelyridiculous.

 

[three6mafia]

if this so called god existed then why are there starving children in the world??
I believe this is explained if you truly do the research.

Here's a question for you bro, do we not have control over starving children? Do we not have billions of dollars for war but not food? Whose to say every problem we have is not because of us? We want to blame God so much but the real blame lies with us. ALL OF US. We hurt each other daily over disagreements. The answers are in reach. You just have to grab them.

isnt he the one who tuned water into wine??? he cant make some food for these poor kids
Once again man, do the research and you'll see why He doesn't intervene directly. He gave us EVERYTHING we need to solve starvation. We choose to do nothing.

We can make the change. He gave us the power to do so. We choose to do NOTHING.

good answers. that is very true, but if he did intervened then, why not know, when the world is sooo badly in need of a sign.
theres soo many people like me that have no reason to believe in a higher power. if i saw some sort of proof i'd definitely change my out look on things. ihope im not coming off as some sort of stuck up sinner who has beef with god. lol.
i mean, i grew up to believe he existed, only until recently i began to question it. it just dosnet make sense to me.
but i do understand what you mean. but like i said, the world is in such a bad state a sign from god would be rather enlightening. and maybe turn $%## around.I've done a decent part with what "he gave us". I donate, i volunteer for community work. I dont go out of my way to work, but in High School,playing sports it was required. Im no mother Theresa or anything lol but you know.

 

[russ tha g]

In regards to what Wooly Willy posted, it does seem like Christianity (and probably all religions) doesn't have a strong foundation on anythingexplainable, and uses open ended justifications ("God works in mysterious ways" and if a person does something bad - it was the devil, if they dosomething good - it was God... I mean, how can you not win with those odds). Those Christian clichés are about as just as a mother's "because I saidso."

I agree with the behavior and moral things that Christianity was originally used to (and occasionally still) teaches - Don't kill, steal, etc. Those aregood things to live by no matter what you believe it. But people are too caught up in the "you're not Christian, you're wrong, you're damned,you're going to hell, etc" stuff - not in the stuff that makes them a better person. It's next to impossible for me to ever talkto anybody that is Christian about any loose ends in Christianity because they automatically assume you must be destined for Hell - an area that likely onlyexists in one place - your mind.

I'm open to believe Christianity, or any religion, if anybody could explain any of it in a way that sounds believable - but that's just aboutimpossible because all of it is based off incredulous supernatural events that cannot and have not been repeated.

 

[ps2child]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by ps2child

Originally Posted by PhilBalla09

for the christians http://iamsecond.com/

some great testimonies

nice. thats what folks is missing. testimony reveals his work.

Religion isn't the only thing has solved people's problems. %$#*, than medicine is good and Einstien is Jesus, cause medicine hass saved far many more people than religion.

depends on what you mean by saved. Jesus saved my life thats for sure.

 

[chi ill]

Originally Posted by columbiasneaks

"God is Santa Claus for adults"

 

[jawnyquest]

 

[moonmaster3]

Originally Posted by TraSoul82

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Originally Posted by davidisgodly

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Long debate about the Jesus resurrection, but its interesting. Mike Licona is a good apologetic to look at. For a good atheist perspective, I recommend Richard Carrier.

Anyone else watching this?

It's like a drama. I'm hooked. Btw, its about 4 hrs long.

Thank you for taking the time to watch some of the debate, this isn't no Zeitgeist *+*%#*$%. THere is a debate between Mike Licona vs Richard Carrier that is really good. Licona uses his same speech from this one, but Carrier gives great rebuttals. Again, a lot of people in here are talking out of their #%* as to why they don't believe.

That really wasn't a good way to start up a debate. "Professional medical opinion that Jesus died as a result" of crucifixion was presented as "evidence". You have got to be kidding me. I would have watched more if the debate hadn't gotten off to such a rocky start. At the end of the day I believe more genuinely fear eternal damnation more than they truly believe that Jesus rose from the dead or died for sin that they hadn't committed yet. To believe in Christianity, you must also believe that most people are damned before they swim into their mother's egg. This means God creates most of us to go to hell. What kind of sick game is that? Heaven shouldn't be a twisted game of musical chairs. Also, are people who have never heard of Jesus exempt from believing? Or will the baseless "everyone is given a chance to turn to Christ" argument be used again? One thing's for sure, and that is that Christianity is going to be around for a while. Any organization that can brush off a worldwide child molestation scandal like that has a pretty solid foundation. I know all Christians aren't Catholics, but Catholicism makes up a large chunk of Christianity. Let me guess: "God was giving those kids adversity to overcome so that they can be stronger." Or how about: "Things like this result from us all being sinners, and bad things have been allowed to happen once sin was brought into the world by man disobeying God." I love that last argument, because it requires that the all-knowing God had no idea that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which leads me to another question: How can the original sin even be considered a "sin" when Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between right and wrong (good and evil)? God is painted by Christianity as some crazy cosmic being who sat in isolation for all of eternity until he got bored and decided to created a cosmic drama to keep himself entertained. I'm not saying that there is no reason to at least hope there is a higher power. But "God", as he is portrayed by Christianity is absolutely ridiculous.

How was that a "rocky way to start?" If there is agreement among most religious scholars that Jesus existed, Jesus was crucified, the next questionto ask is, did he die? He's merely saying that if those things are in agreement among the academic community, then medical evidence shows that in general,you can't survive crucifixion. I think you're basing it off the fact that he never got crucified.

 

[trasoul82]

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Originally Posted by TraSoul82

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Originally Posted by davidisgodly

Originally Posted by moonmaster3

Long debate about the Jesus resurrection, but its interesting. Mike Licona is a good apologetic to look at. For a good atheist perspective, I recommend Richard Carrier.

Anyone else watching this?

It's like a drama. I'm hooked. Btw, its about 4 hrs long.

Thank you for taking the time to watch some of the debate, this isn't no Zeitgeist *+*%#*$%. THere is a debate between Mike Licona vs Richard Carrier that is really good. Licona uses his same speech from this one, but Carrier gives great rebuttals. Again, a lot of people in here are talking out of their #%* as to why they don't believe.

That really wasn't a good way to start up a debate. "Professional medical opinion that Jesus died as a result" of crucifixion was presented as "evidence". You have got to be kidding me. I would have watched more if the debate hadn't gotten off to such a rocky start. At the end of the day I believe more genuinely fear eternal damnation more than they truly believe that Jesus rose from the dead or died for sin that they hadn't committed yet. To believe in Christianity, you must also believe that most people are damned before they swim into their mother's egg. This means God creates most of us to go to hell. What kind of sick game is that? Heaven shouldn't be a twisted game of musical chairs. Also, are people who have never heard of Jesus exempt from believing? Or will the baseless "everyone is given a chance to turn to Christ" argument be used again? One thing's for sure, and that is that Christianity is going to be around for a while. Any organization that can brush off a worldwide child molestation scandal like that has a pretty solid foundation. I know all Christians aren't Catholics, but Catholicism makes up a large chunk of Christianity. Let me guess: "God was giving those kids adversity to overcome so that they can be stronger." Or how about: "Things like this result from us all being sinners, and bad things have been allowed to happen once sin was brought into the world by man disobeying God." I love that last argument, because it requires that the all-knowing God had no idea that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which leads me to another question: How can the original sin even be considered a "sin" when Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between right and wrong (good and evil)? God is painted by Christianity as some crazy cosmic being who sat in isolation for all of eternity until he got bored and decided to created a cosmic drama to keep himself entertained. I'm not saying that there is no reason to at least hope there is a higher power. But "God", as he is portrayed by Christianity is absolutely ridiculous.

How was that a "rocky way to start?" If there is agreement among most religious scholars that Jesus existed, Jesus was crucified, the next question to ask is, did he die? He's merely saying that if those things are in agreement among the academic community, then medical evidence shows that in general, you can't survive crucifixion. I think you're basing it off the fact that he never got crucified.

Doesn't medical evidence also show in general that you cannot rise from the dead? If we are going off of "general medical evidence",then the debate should have ended right there. I understand that the debate was likely just for the sake of argument, but even beyond the "medicalevidence", he's sighting the Bible as the source of historical accounts that Jesus rose from the dead. This tells me that he believes it literally.The same book that said he walked on water and fed multitudes with a couple of fish and a loaf of bread. The only reason this debate lasted as long as it didis because it was held in front of a Christian audience. I can take a look at some more but it still takes "faith" to really give these arguments anymerit. The audience has to "want" to believe. I've heard these arguments before. I've attended a Catholic school, a Baptist school, anon-denominational Christian school, and a "cult" known as Pensacola Christian College. Basically, the "historical evidence" is too murkyon both sides of the table for this argument to ever be "resolved."

 

[uknowdonti]

It's long but it's a good debate, well at least from Hitchens' side. Notice that Boteach doesn't really answer Hitchens' questionsspecifically but chooses to attack him more than the actual issue at hand.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

I wrote this before on here in one of the religion threads and I will add it again.

I was in a long term relationship with a non-Islamic man (he was of a Roman Catholic background, but non-practicing and more agnostic), and it opened up myeyes to a lot about organized religion. One of the biggest burdens between him and I was that since I was of an Islamic background, my parents would stronglydisapprove and disown me if I were to marry him. So, I started to look at the bigger picture, think about religion, and do a lot of research. I gained so muchknowledge through my research and saw what organized religion was truly created for and began to believe it was man-made. So, it was not completely that I wasin an interfaith relationship that changed my perspective, but it did set it off.

I also just realized how organized religion was so judgemenal and it made people of different religions and backgrounds more divided rather than united. Theintolerance it breeds is just phenomenal and I think it is behind some of the rifts in spearheading wars and conflicts. Also, to me, after all the research Idid in finding out about the origins of the Monotheistic faiths, it opened up my eyes and I can say now I do not live in fear of a God. I am free.

 

[moonmaster3]

I can say now I do not live in fear of a God. I am free.


You can't equate organized religion with God. They aren't the same thing.

 

[SUSHI AND GRITS]

God created man. Who obviously are not pure.


How do we know that God was a living physical being? That's the question.

 

[philballa09]

Originally Posted by ps2child

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by ps2child

Originally Posted by PhilBalla09

for the christians http://iamsecond.com/

some great testimonies

nice. thats what folks is missing. testimony reveals his work.

Religion isn't the only thing has solved people's problems. %$#*, than medicine is good and Einstien is Jesus, cause medicine hass saved far many more people than religion.

depends on what you mean by saved. Jesus saved my life thats for sure.

My cousin was saved....That's what made me a believer

everyone knows hamilton's story but his testimony

 

[SUSHI AND GRITS]

Exactly... Jesus didn't create the world... as far as my beliefs are concerned.

 

[kb8sandiego]

Originally Posted by SUSHI AND GRITS

God created man. Who obviously are not pure.

How do we know that God was a living physical being? That's the question.

He isn't. Jesus is the son of God, who was a physical living being.

 

[kb8sandiego]

^
You're absolutely right.

He didn't.

People get it confused when it comes to God and Jesus.

There's God the father, then there's his son, Jesus, who according to Christian faith, died for our sins and is seated at the right hand of the father,God.

 

[SUSHI AND GRITS]

Bottomline, everyone should believe in their own truths and stop trying to convert people into their way of thinking.Communicate your ideas to other people but don't force them to believe what you believe. If they do fine, but if not then move on and live yourlife.

 

[SUSHI AND GRITS]

Even if you're not Christian, or Buddist, of Cathelic, or any other religion, I think it's important for people to educate themselves on thedifferent religions. If you're a sharp individual, I think you'll be able to see that every religion has the same message. Only issue is, like I said,the organized parts where MAN tries to control their people.