I don't know much about the Israel/Palestine conflict, but I do know a sonning

[saintvitus07]

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

why people say jews like they are an ethnic group though?

A thread like this is going to get cluttered with recycled 5 percent-fueled nonsense on NT anyway, so I'll just try to ignore the subtle anti-Semitic remarks here. Most rational people of any faith realize Israel oversteps its bounds in "protecting" its well-being. Any argument about occupying land has merit only as much as it involves disputed settlements. What I don't get is people who throw Zionist and Zionism around like its slavery. Before Israel existed that land was just that...land. Palestine is not a country in the political meaning of the word nor will it ever be until its people can fully unite as a nation and both Israel and Palestinian leaders can work out suitable compromises on both sides. Those who are so fiercely defending Palestinians should also look on the other side of the coin. Israelis risk bombings every day. It is their reality. That is no excuse for killing innocent people on the other side of the fence but understanding that reality puts things in perspective.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

they don't want israel to exist. they consider every single piece of land "theirs" not just 1967 borders. and liek i said if they get land back they will still be killing each other.

Look up what happened at the Taba Summit.

The BEST most fair option ever presented, widely accepted by the international community as well as Palestine was turned down by Israel.

While Taba would have been great in 2001 it isn't a realistic view of what is going to happen now. It's doubtful that Israel ever agrees to remove the wall they've constructed or the settlements that lie to the West of this wall. Sadly, the reality is that most of what is to the West of the wall will in fact become a part of Israel. There should be some compensation for the land that was taken from the West Bank which should amount to an equal land swap which would lead to a deconstruction of at least part of the wall. The settlements that lie deeper in the West Bank would also either have to be dismantled or left to fall under Palestinian control which is no doubt going to be a huge issue if this ever does occur.

Israelis risk bombings every day. It is their reality.

Since they built the wall, no they don't.

 

[kickinheadz1010]

Why can't we all get along?

 

[duba169]

Hazeleyed Honey wrote:

You keep claiming that Arabs do not want Israel to exist. That can be true. But, do you think that maybe also some Jews do not want Palestine to exist? At least Israel exists. I doubt in any way as it stands that Israel will be annihilated, whether some like it or not.  



I'm talking about theer are heavily influential organizations like Fatah and Hammas that want israel eradicated. It is their specific goal. I don't see organizations like that In israel. If there is a 2 state solution you think those groups disappear overnight? I don't. their goal is the eradication of all of israel. it will continue to be.

yeah "some" Jews don't want palestine to exist. But their aren't extremist orgnizations behind those individuals

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by DubA169

Hazeleyed Honey wrote:

You keep claiming that Arabs do not want Israel to exist. That can be true. But, do you think that maybe also some Jews do not want Palestine to exist? At least Israel exists. I doubt in any way as it stands that Israel will be annihilated, whether some like it or not.  

I'm talking about theer are heavily influential organizations like Fatah and Hammas that want israel eradicated. It is their specific goal. I don't see organizations like that In israel. If there is a 2 state solution you think those groups disappear overnight? I don't. their goal is the eradication of all of israel. it will continue to be.

yeah "some" Jews don't want palestine to exist. But their aren't extremist orgnizations behind those individuals


Both of the groups you mentioned don't actually want Israel eradicated. While there may be elements of Hamas who still view this as a goal it is not the majority anymore. The same goes for Fatah. To say that Fatah wants to eradicate Israel is a joke. They're the most complacent group out of all parties who submit to American and Israeli pressure time and time again.

There are a number of settlers who live deeper in the West Bank (East of the wall) that are in fact more extremist than mainstream Israelis that do feel that Israel should in fact control all of what they call Judea and Samaria. While they may be loosely formed, they are extremist.

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

Originally Posted by LALAKERFAN213

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

I cannot wait to see Finkelstein speak tomorrow, should be awesome.

Where?

Brooklyn College.

I don't see anything positive happening with israel's current primeminister. Plus Obama got his hands full at the moment. I don't think hewill go heavy into the peace process anymore until he gets reelected.(i think he will go all in eventually if reelected)

I disagree, there have already been rumblings in the government that the U.S. is trying to come up with something to present to both parties since they can't be brought to the table because of the new homes being constructed in East Jerusalem. I feel like if he does try something and gets results it may in fact help him in the next election since we'll be seeing some of the "change" in foreign policy he talked about while campaigning which has been completely nonexistent so far.

You bring up a HUGE issue. The Israeli government is structured so awkwardly that even the slightest deviation in policy can lead to a call for elections and an even harsher right wing government placed in power.




he can't touch the mid east until he fixes the economy (specifically unemployment). the main block of american voters doesn't give a crap about these damn arabs and Jews. the arabs are a bunch of terrorists and the jews are taking all their money

they couldn't care less.

the way I see it if he does the peace talks before the election and fails... it kills him in the election. republicans canconvince voters he doesn't concentrate on domestic issues. and honestly they will use code words for calling him an arab lover

 

[callhimar]

he can't touch the mid east until he fixes the economy(specifically unemployment). the main block of american voters doesn'tgive a crap about these damn arabs and Jews. the arabs are a bunch ofterrorists and the jews are taking all their money

they couldn't care less.

theway I see it if he does the peace talks before the election andfails... it kills him in the election. republicans canconvince votershe doesn't concentrate on domestic issues. and honestly they will usecode words for calling him an arab lover
Yeah, that's basically the downside and most likely reality.

 

[stackjaxx]

oh god. she got wrecked.

 

[ninjahood]

even though it was way before my time, americans sounded alot better off when they weren't meddling in EVERY damn foreign problem da world threw at it.

 

[daytona 5000]

Originally Posted by SaintVitus07

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

why people say jews like they are an ethnic group though?

A thread like this is going to get cluttered with recycled 5 percent-fueled nonsense on NT anyway, so I'll just try to ignore the subtle anti-Semitic remarks here. Most rational people of any faith realize Israel oversteps its bounds in "protecting" its well-being. Any argument about occupying land has merit only as much as it involves disputed settlements. What I don't get is people who throw Zionist and Zionism around like its slavery. Before Israel existed that land was just that...land. Palestine is not a country in the political meaning of the word nor will it ever be until its people can fully unite as a nation and both Israel and Palestinian leaders can work out suitable compromises on both sides. Those who are so fiercely defending Palestinians should also look on the other side of the coin. Israelis risk bombings every day. It is their reality. That is no excuse for killing innocent people on the other side of the fence but understanding that reality puts things in perspective.

If you are going to give a

at least answer or give me a reason why.

 

[davidisgodly]

Oh my god..... I have never seen a white girl get destroyed like that! No pun intended.

 

[wawaweewa]

The geography of the land itself does not allow for 2 states unless 1 side makes drastic concessions.
This notion, from either side, that there can be a "fair" deal is total bull %$%+. One side will have to get the short end of the stick in a deal. Until this happens the status quo will continue to exist.

 

[Master Zik]

After he stopped stammering he went IN

Seriously though, the type of thinking and accusations that girl made are exactly what's wrong when it comes to tragedies committed on one group. Then generations they playing the woe is me game to get over on others.

 

[dj bana]

wow. heavy thread, just read all 6 pages.

lots to say but i feel i should gather my thoughts...

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by SaintVitus07

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

why people say jews like they are an ethnic group though?

A thread like this is going to get cluttered with recycled 5 percent-fueled nonsense on NT anyway, so I'll just try to ignore the subtle anti-Semitic remarks here. Most rational people of any faith realize Israel oversteps its bounds in "protecting" its well-being. Any argument about occupying land has merit only as much as it involves disputed settlements. What I don't get is people who throw Zionist and Zionism around like its slavery. Before Israel existed that land was just that...land. Palestine is not a country in the political meaning of the word nor will it ever be until its people can fully unite as a nation and both Israel and Palestinian leaders can work out suitable compromises on both sides. Those who are so fiercely defending Palestinians should also look on the other side of the coin. Israelis risk bombings every day. It is their reality. That is no excuse for killing innocent people on the other side of the fence but understanding that reality puts things in perspective.

But,Palestine was a land with a majority of Arabs until 1948 and it was supposed to become a country as it was promised to its indigenous Arab inhabitants by the colonizers. Originally, you can say that Zionism embedded some racist connotations to its ideology and even colonialism. The Zionists saw the land to be theirs as "God's Chosen People" and that they would go ahead and make a prosperous nation for themselves all the while looking at the native Arabs as scum and disregarding them. It is no different to the white man's burden mentality which was upheld by the colonizers who invaded the Americas and who saw its native inhabitants as savages and barbaric with no value.

You need to also think of the fact that the creation of Israel happened at a time of de-colonization where other territories broke away from their colonizers and became nation states. Palestinians Arabs did uprisings against the Ottoman empire, and in return the British promised them that in the end they will help them and give them their statehood. But, they also struck a deal with the Zionists to give the Jewish people a homeland in that region. All the other 22 Arab nation states attained statehood and their colonizers gave them their deal, except the Palestinian Arabs who got stuck with a partition plan which was unfair and decided without their involvement and participation.

To this day, you can say that Israel is an apartheid state and implements racist and discriminatory clauses for Palestinian Arabs. The Palestinians are second class citizens and have their basic and fundamental human rights violated on a daily basis.

Of course, I completely condemn and do not condone Palestinian terrorism towards civilians. No one here condoned it. However, we just view occupation as unjustifiable and Israel's policies as indefensible and look at the conflict from a different perspective.


  

 

[saintvitus07]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by SaintVitus07

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

why people say jews like they are an ethnic group though?

What I don't get is people who throw Zionist and Zionism around like its slavery. Before Israel existed that land was just that...land. Palestine is not a country in the political meaning of the word

But,Palestine was a land with a majority of Arabs until 1948 and it was supposed to become a country as it was promised to its indigenous Arab inhabitants by the colonizers.

The Palestinians are second class citizens and have their basic and fundamental human rights violated on a daily basis.

I agree with both of those statements. Colonizers, namely the British, screwed with that territory. But those indigenous Arab inhabitants were so distant culturally and socially from the western world that they never thought to form a politically recognizable nation, and that's on them. I am not saying that's right or wrong, but that's what happened. And don't forget that there were plenty of Jews in that area before the Holocaust. War has been a natural way of nationhood for many, including this country we live in now. I am not comfortable with any country that is based on any one faith, but Israel is one of the few countries in that region that resembles a democracy so I am less inclined to side with their so-called enemies, a group of people who, despite their struggle, remain divided and are often victim of their own missteps.

 

[vintage sole 737]

Originally Posted by ninjahood

even though it was way before my time, americans sounded alot better off when they weren't meddling in EVERY damn foreign problem da world threw at it.

america is well entrenched in this conflict and have a side they are rooting for and funding too.

america has always looked to increase their size(territory+wealth) since it was founded.  it's imperialism in disguise.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by SaintVitus07

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by SaintVitus07

Originally Posted by DAYTONA 5000

why people say jews like they are an ethnic group though?

What I don't get is people who throw Zionist and Zionism around like its slavery. Before Israel existed that land was just that...land. Palestine is not a country in the political meaning of the word

But,Palestine was a land with a majority of Arabs until 1948 and it was supposed to become a country as it was promised to its indigenous Arab inhabitants by the colonizers.

The Palestinians are second class citizens and have their basic and fundamental human rights violated on a daily basis.

I agree with both of those statements. Colonizers, namely the British, screwed with that territory. But those indigenous Arab inhabitants were so distant culturally and socially from the western world that they never thought to form a politically recognizable nation, and that's on them. I am not saying that's right or wrong, but that's what happened. And don't forget that there were plenty of Jews in that area before the Holocaust. War has been a natural way of nationhood for many, including this country we live in now. I am not comfortable with any country that is based on any one faith, but Israel is one of the few countries in that region that resembles a democracy so I am less inclined to side with their so-called enemies, a group of people who, despite their struggle, remain divided and are often victim of their own missteps.

They didn't have a politically recognizable nation because they were part of a larger empire. They did govern themselves for the most part while a part of the Ottoman Empire until much later on when the Ottomans tried to centralize things, but even then it was very loose. There were just democratic elections held in the West Bank and Gaza in 2006 that led to Gaza being sanctioned because they voted "for the wrong people" so who's really preventing democracy from thriving here?

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by SaintVitus07

 

I agree with both of those statements. Colonizers, namely the British, screwed with that territory. But those indigenous Arab inhabitants were so distant culturally and socially from the western world that they never thought to form a politically recognizable nation, and that's on them. I am not saying that's right or wrong, but that's what happened. And don't forget that there were plenty of Jews in that area before the Holocaust. War has been a natural way of nationhood for many, including this country we live in now. I am not comfortable with any country that is based on any one faith, but Israel is one of the few countries in that region that resembles a democracy so I am less inclined to side with their so-called enemies, a group of people who, despite their struggle, remain divided and are often victim of their own missteps.



Of course Palestinians did want to form a politically recognizable nation, whether it be under an overall pan-Arab regimen or as Palestine for Palestinians. Palestinian nationalism developed as an independent philosophy ever since post WWI when under Ottoman rule. The surplus of Jewish immigration over the following decades did push it to form in a different way as a reaction to Zionism. 

Yes, there were Jews in that region but they were a small minority and then became a bigger minority until 1948 when they became the majority.

Israel is a democracy for only Jewish people but severely marginalizes, discriminates, and oppresses its non-Jewish citizens, as well as has numerous violations of international law and human rights. As long as it continues to be an occupier, oppressor, and violates fundamental and basic human rights, I will never view it as a true democracy.

 

[flocka]

someone please find this broads facebook or something

girl looked like her noggin was about to implode or something

 

[in yo nostril]

Originally Posted by ninjahood

even though it was way before my time, americans sounded alot better off when they weren't meddling in EVERY damn foreign problem da world threw at it.

pearl harbor.

 

[sunny559]

Originally Posted by TeamJordan79

Originally Posted by Lex Starks

Originally Posted by moneyisthemotive

Originally Posted by Lex Starks

I agree in the sense that Jewish Black people need to stop playing the Holocaust Slavery card and their usage of crocodile tears to further their agendas. This is prevalent in the younger communities as they think they have some sort of entitlement because of what their ANCESTORS went through. You don't get to use that as an excuse.

what if someone typed that? i think it is very insensitive to type what you did ...

I would have said the same thing about slavery and the civil rights movement. As Huey said on the Boondocks to Granddad, "were you there?" in reference to Granddad saying that we went through a lot by getting hosed down and attacked by dogs. Just because something happened to a certain group of people does not entitle everyone of that background to use that as their excuse.

word. Every nation, group, ethnicity, got bodied at some point in history. If u keep it moving, u progress. If u dont, u repeat the cycle.

WOW, girl got SHUT DOWN.

Holocaust, african american slavery, 1984 supposed sikh genocide, they are all used today as fuel for certain agendas today. I totally agree with TeamJordan79,  you cant make progress if you dont stop relying on these events for support/whatever.

 

[ninjahood]

Originally Posted by In Yo Nostril

Originally Posted by ninjahood

even though it was way before my time, americans sounded alot better off when they weren't meddling in EVERY damn foreign problem da world threw at it.

pearl harbor.

that only happened because da Japanese wanted to control a major portion in da pacific and felt da Americans stood in their way for

them to expand and acquire more land.

 

[teamjordan79]

Originally Posted by ninjahood

Originally Posted by In Yo Nostril

Originally Posted by ninjahood

even though it was way before my time, americans sounded alot better off when they weren't meddling in EVERY damn foreign problem da world threw at it.

pearl harbor.

that only happened because da Japanese wanted to control a major portion in da pacific and felt da Americans stood in their way for

them to expand and acquire more land.

u aint even gotta justify that. 
gulf of tonkin incident. (led to Vietnam war)
the Lusitania sinking. (led to american entry into WWI)

bombing of the Maine. (led to Spanish American War) 

pearl harbor (led to american entry into WWII) 

all got evidence of americans acting shady. Govt's sometimes can create certain events that help them to mobilize its people into war. 

 

[in yo nostril]

Originally Posted by ninjahood

Originally Posted by In Yo Nostril

Originally Posted by ninjahood

even though it was way before my time, americans sounded alot better off when they weren't meddling in EVERY damn foreign problem da world threw at it.

pearl harbor.

that only happened because da Japanese wanted to control a major portion in da pacific and felt da Americans stood in their way for

them to expand and acquire more land.

america tried to stay out and got dragged in, so there goes that.