Is it just the Jordan mystique that makes him the "undisputed" GOAT?

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Pretty much. MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and Magic are all in the discussion. It's not at all a stretch for any of those guys to be considered the GOAT. I'm sure if you wanted to make a case for either of them you can make a list of all of their individual accomplishments and go from there. It wasn't that hard for me to look up some information on KAJ and make a valid argument for him...yet some Jordan fanatics continue to say that it's ridiculous. 

Side note: Kareem wrote a letter in response to Pippen's LBJ comments in which he basically said that Wilt was the GOAT. Check it out

http://
Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately, 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

Everything he said is truth but MJ fans will say they didnt have the "determination" that Jordan had... plus all this has been brought up in numerous arguments between me and my friends and there's an excuse for every stat he pointed out and every ring Bill Russell got because apparently 6 is more then 11 in chicago...

  

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Pretty much. MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and Magic are all in the discussion. It's not at all a stretch for any of those guys to be considered the GOAT. I'm sure if you wanted to make a case for either of them you can make a list of all of their individual accomplishments and go from there. It wasn't that hard for me to look up some information on KAJ and make a valid argument for him...yet some Jordan fanatics continue to say that it's ridiculous. 

Side note: Kareem wrote a letter in response to Pippen's LBJ comments in which he basically said that Wilt was the GOAT. Check it out

http://
Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately, 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

Everything he said is truth but MJ fans will say they didnt have the "determination" that Jordan had... plus all this has been brought up in numerous arguments between me and my friends and there's an excuse for every stat he pointed out and every ring Bill Russell got because apparently 6 is more then 11 in chicago...

  

 

[af1 1982]

Jordan's skill set was unmatched though. The way he changed the game. The way he changed his own game to combat age. Is competitiveness he possessed is matched by very few people. And just his overall love of the game.

 

[af1 1982]

Jordan's skill set was unmatched though. The way he changed the game. The way he changed his own game to combat age. Is competitiveness he possessed is matched by very few people. And just his overall love of the game.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Pretty much. MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and Magic are all in the discussion. It's not at all a stretch for any of those guys to be considered the GOAT. I'm sure if you wanted to make a case for either of them you can make a list of all of their individual accomplishments and go from there. It wasn't that hard for me to look up some information on KAJ and make a valid argument for him...yet some Jordan fanatics continue to say that it's ridiculous. 

Side note: Kareem wrote a letter in response to Pippen's LBJ comments in which he basically said that Wilt was the GOAT. Check it out

http://
Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately, 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

I respected the hell outta wilt, esp for his off court stats 20,000 ohes. But like i said in another thread after i saw one of his 50+ games and the fact that he got half of his shots in which players backed away and unguarded, and the other half were uncontested. That kinda miscues getting 50 a night.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Pretty much. MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and Magic are all in the discussion. It's not at all a stretch for any of those guys to be considered the GOAT. I'm sure if you wanted to make a case for either of them you can make a list of all of their individual accomplishments and go from there. It wasn't that hard for me to look up some information on KAJ and make a valid argument for him...yet some Jordan fanatics continue to say that it's ridiculous. 

Side note: Kareem wrote a letter in response to Pippen's LBJ comments in which he basically said that Wilt was the GOAT. Check it out

http://
Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately, 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

I respected the hell outta wilt, esp for his off court stats 20,000 ohes. But like i said in another thread after i saw one of his 50+ games and the fact that he got half of his shots in which players backed away and unguarded, and the other half were uncontested. That kinda miscues getting 50 a night.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Man, Kareem be puttin his name in the papers ALOT lately. 

 

Movie's...

You dont hear from a guy for 20 years, all of a sudden he wants to coach and he descides to make a movie

.
   Girtty
Or is it based on a BOOK.
Cause son is on the record for stating he would retire early even in the 80's

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Man, Kareem be puttin his name in the papers ALOT lately. 

 

Movie's...

You dont hear from a guy for 20 years, all of a sudden he wants to coach and he descides to make a movie

.
   Girtty
Or is it based on a BOOK.
Cause son is on the record for stating he would retire early even in the 80's

 

[grittyman20]

Wilt's skill set was unmatched in his era. The same for Russell, Kareem and Magic.

%#$ you talking about "overall love of the game" is this even something that's measurable?

 

[grittyman20]

Wilt's skill set was unmatched in his era. The same for Russell, Kareem and Magic.

%#$ you talking about "overall love of the game" is this even something that's measurable?

 

[illmatic34]

Jordan was the best combination of an all around game, personal accolades, and performance.

 

[illmatic34]

Jordan was the best combination of an all around game, personal accolades, and performance.

 

[grittyman20]

LDJ wrote:

I respected the hell outta wilt, esp for his off court stats 20,000 ohes. But like i said in another thread after i saw one of his 50+ games and the fact that he got half of his shots in which players backed away and unguarded, and the other half were uncontested. That kinda miscues getting 50 a night.
I also read that Wilt would drop a 50 piece nugget on Bill Russell's head, who was arguably the greatest defensive big man of all time...so it goes both ways. Was there another great 2 guard during Jordan's era who was supposed to slow him down? A lot of times Jordan was going up against defensive players like Hornacek, Ehlo, Dumars (6'3 maybe), John Starks, Reggie Miller, etc...maybe Drexler was his toughest matchup. So there's a counter to that argument as well. 

 

[grittyman20]

LDJ wrote:

I respected the hell outta wilt, esp for his off court stats 20,000 ohes. But like i said in another thread after i saw one of his 50+ games and the fact that he got half of his shots in which players backed away and unguarded, and the other half were uncontested. That kinda miscues getting 50 a night.
I also read that Wilt would drop a 50 piece nugget on Bill Russell's head, who was arguably the greatest defensive big man of all time...so it goes both ways. Was there another great 2 guard during Jordan's era who was supposed to slow him down? A lot of times Jordan was going up against defensive players like Hornacek, Ehlo, Dumars (6'3 maybe), John Starks, Reggie Miller, etc...maybe Drexler was his toughest matchup. So there's a counter to that argument as well. 

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.

Do I think Lebron will surpass Jordan's career accomplishments, no, but I don't think the gap between their prime years is that big.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.
Agreed. I don't think there's such a thing as an undisputed GOAT in basketball.

Production-wise LeBron's last two years were indeed in the neighborhood of Jordan. But that's just half the game. LeBron is a great defender due to his physical attributes and versatility, but his defense is not nearly as consistently great as Jordan's was. I don't think people realize how dogged and intense the guy was on that end of the floor, probably because the only thing they've seen of his is his offensive highlights. Not to mention his defense was fundamentally near perfect. Besides, Jordan produced at a higher level with the hand check rules in play. We've seen game where physical defense took LeBron out of his game, and relegated him to ineffective perimeter jumpshots. The incidence of such would increase substantially if defenders could hand check.

And if we're talking about technical skill and overall fundamental mastery of the game, it's really not close. Jordan is Picasso, and LeBron would be the out of work house painter standing outside Home Depot.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.

Do I think Lebron will surpass Jordan's career accomplishments, no, but I don't think the gap between their prime years is that big.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.
Agreed. I don't think there's such a thing as an undisputed GOAT in basketball.

Production-wise LeBron's last two years were indeed in the neighborhood of Jordan. But that's just half the game. LeBron is a great defender due to his physical attributes and versatility, but his defense is not nearly as consistently great as Jordan's was. I don't think people realize how dogged and intense the guy was on that end of the floor, probably because the only thing they've seen of his is his offensive highlights. Not to mention his defense was fundamentally near perfect. Besides, Jordan produced at a higher level with the hand check rules in play. We've seen game where physical defense took LeBron out of his game, and relegated him to ineffective perimeter jumpshots. The incidence of such would increase substantially if defenders could hand check.

And if we're talking about technical skill and overall fundamental mastery of the game, it's really not close. Jordan is Picasso, and LeBron would be the out of work house painter standing outside Home Depot.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I think it's highly rediculous that people like to anoint MJ as the unquestioned GOAT, it's just just further proof that 80's baby's run NT. Bill, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird all could have arguments made for them.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I think it's highly rediculous that people like to anoint MJ as the unquestioned GOAT, it's just just further proof that 80's baby's run NT. Bill, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird all could have arguments made for them.

 

[xiiz89]

Two Words: Space Jam

 

[xiiz89]

Two Words: Space Jam

 

[xiiz89]

Two Words: Space Jam

 

[xiiz89]

Two Words: Space Jam

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

LDJ wrote:

I respected the hell outta wilt, esp for his off court stats 20,000 ohes. But like i said in another thread after i saw one of his 50+ games and the fact that he got half of his shots in which players backed away and unguarded, and the other half were uncontested. That kinda miscues getting 50 a night.
I also read that Wilt would drop a 50 piece nugget on Bill Russell's head, who was arguably the greatest defensive big man of all time...so it goes both ways. Was there another great 2 guard during Jordan's era who was supposed to slow him down? A lot of times Jordan was going up against defensive players like Hornacek, Ehlo, Dumars (6'3 maybe), John Starks, Reggie Miller, etc...maybe Drexler was his toughest matchup. So there's a counter to that argument as well. 



True but there is clearly a difference between a guy guarding you contesting your shots, vs a guy noy even defending you at all/not contesting your shots. Ive watched plenty of mj games tv and in person and i cant recall a game where he was left all game unguarded and/or uncontested. And like i said russell, halbrook, and jordon were the only ones who guarded him and russell was the only player who contested his shots.