Is it just the Jordan mystique that makes him the "undisputed" GOAT?

[|A-Man|]

No but it's a part of it. Impact should be accounted for as well. Jordan was in a special opportune position picking up from where Magic, Bird, and Dr. Jay left off and kinda crossed a new frontier for the superstars of today. He's one of the main reasons they have this level of media attention and multi-million dollar contracts.

IMO, for one player to surpass MJ they'd have to do what Bill Russell did AND be one of if not the most dynamic player in the league.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by Kobefan23

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Longevity does/should count for something; we're talking top 5 players of all time. Would you rather have KAJ for 20 years at the most important position in basketball, or MJ for 13 years? I don't know, but it's definitely a factor.There's definitely a mystique around MJ that clouds people's judgment that makes them forget the difficulty coaching him, getting him to play the team game, etc.

Quick aside for the stat guys: why do we put so much value on usage rate? While you're impacting many possessions, isn't it a sure sign the ball is glued to your hands most of the game?

Thats why per is flawed.......
Dudes are making it out to be like a Wayne Gretzky or a Jerry Rice situation, where as its really closer to a Muhammad Ali vs Rocky Marciano VS Joe Lewis, vs whomever else situation.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by Kobefan23

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Longevity does/should count for something; we're talking top 5 players of all time. Would you rather have KAJ for 20 years at the most important position in basketball, or MJ for 13 years? I don't know, but it's definitely a factor.There's definitely a mystique around MJ that clouds people's judgment that makes them forget the difficulty coaching him, getting him to play the team game, etc.

Quick aside for the stat guys: why do we put so much value on usage rate? While you're impacting many possessions, isn't it a sure sign the ball is glued to your hands most of the game?

Thats why per is flawed.......
Dudes are making it out to be like a Wayne Gretzky or a Jerry Rice situation, where as its really closer to a Muhammad Ali vs Rocky Marciano VS Joe Lewis, vs whomever else situation.

 

[JD617]

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.
Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.

Do I think Lebron will surpass Jordan's career accomplishments, no, but I don't think the gap between their prime years is that big.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.
Agreed. I don't think there's such a thing as an undisputed GOAT in basketball.

 

[JD617]

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.
Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.

Do I think Lebron will surpass Jordan's career accomplishments, no, but I don't think the gap between their prime years is that big.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.
Agreed. I don't think there's such a thing as an undisputed GOAT in basketball.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.


After this series, James will be at just over 29,000 minutes logged, already.  Add another 3500 the next 2 seasons, he's pushin it big time.  And he won't even be 30 yet. 

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.


After this series, James will be at just over 29,000 minutes logged, already.  Add another 3500 the next 2 seasons, he's pushin it big time.  And he won't even be 30 yet. 

  

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.

Do I think Lebron will surpass Jordan's career accomplishments, no, but I don't think the gap between their prime years is that big.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.
Agreed. I don't think there's such a thing as an undisputed GOAT in basketball.

thats what im sayin people outside of chicago get real carried away like they live in chicago,  and Lebron's last 3 years have been as good and he's gonna keep doin this jordans best seasons average wise are all scoring and a couple years of good assists and rebounds, Lebron does this every year...
  

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.

Do I think Lebron will surpass Jordan's career accomplishments, no, but I don't think the gap between their prime years is that big.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.
Agreed. I don't think there's such a thing as an undisputed GOAT in basketball.

thats what im sayin people outside of chicago get real carried away like they live in chicago,  and Lebron's last 3 years have been as good and he's gonna keep doin this jordans best seasons average wise are all scoring and a couple years of good assists and rebounds, Lebron does this every year...
  

 

[JD617]

CP1708 wrote:

---

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.
After this series, James will be at just over 29,000 minutes logged, already.  Add another 3500 the next 2 seasons, he's pushin it big time.  And he won't even be 30 yet. 



True, maybe I should've said the entirety of his prime. Because athletically, I don't think he's at the point where he's noticeably declining yet.

 

[JD617]

CP1708 wrote:

---

Originally Posted by JD617

We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

Productivity-wise, Lebron's last 2 years in Cleveland were right in the neighborhood of Jordan's best years. Also, I think it's a little bit too early to say that we've seen his athletic and productive prime.
After this series, James will be at just over 29,000 minutes logged, already.  Add another 3500 the next 2 seasons, he's pushin it big time.  And he won't even be 30 yet. 



True, maybe I should've said the entirety of his prime. Because athletically, I don't think he's at the point where he's noticeably declining yet.

 

[al3xis]

and he'll still be the best conditioned athlete in the NBA. that has to combat the mileage a little.

but I would say we are currently seeing his absolute peak. Which IMO at this rate, will have spanned from 2008 through 2012.

 

[al3xis]

and he'll still be the best conditioned athlete in the NBA. that has to combat the mileage a little.

but I would say we are currently seeing his absolute peak. Which IMO at this rate, will have spanned from 2008 through 2012.

 

[sdtekken]

Dont really need to add my two cents since much of it has been said already but lets not forget that his career scoring average with the Bulls was 31.5 which is a solid gap over Wilt's 30.1

Playing for the Wizards obviously dipped his average and I remember he had to drop like 20+ points during a certain game to keep the record. I was nervous thinking he might really lose it but of course Money came through

 

[sdtekken]

Dont really need to add my two cents since much of it has been said already but lets not forget that his career scoring average with the Bulls was 31.5 which is a solid gap over Wilt's 30.1

Playing for the Wizards obviously dipped his average and I remember he had to drop like 20+ points during a certain game to keep the record. I was nervous thinking he might really lose it but of course Money came through

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

I can see why ppl think like that based on other attributes of pop idol and life. Elvis pretty much stole rock and roll, isnt the greatest (sorry gotta give it to jimi hendrix) and yet on the average held as the king of rock and roll. Tupac who is my fav rapper along with nas and big is generally seen as the greatest of all time, yet sales and just talent wise eminem has surpass him, but generally ppl will say pac/ a few big is hailed as the greatest. I mean unless a player sheerly dominate on the status of wilt with a skill set that surpass mj, and is some sort of global icon that change lifestyle etc, and even then it will be ppl who wanna sound like they knowledgeble or elitest and say i watched these old things called dvds/videos with my grandpa so i know the game and jordan was the best, ala how ppl are saying ppl like russell/wilt/west are the best even tho there parents werent even old enough to understand watch there greatness, let alone them.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

I can see why ppl think like that based on other attributes of pop idol and life. Elvis pretty much stole rock and roll, isnt the greatest (sorry gotta give it to jimi hendrix) and yet on the average held as the king of rock and roll. Tupac who is my fav rapper along with nas and big is generally seen as the greatest of all time, yet sales and just talent wise eminem has surpass him, but generally ppl will say pac/ a few big is hailed as the greatest. I mean unless a player sheerly dominate on the status of wilt with a skill set that surpass mj, and is some sort of global icon that change lifestyle etc, and even then it will be ppl who wanna sound like they knowledgeble or elitest and say i watched these old things called dvds/videos with my grandpa so i know the game and jordan was the best, ala how ppl are saying ppl like russell/wilt/west are the best even tho there parents werent even old enough to understand watch there greatness, let alone them.

 

[af1 1982]

Jordan's skill set was unmatched though. The way he changed the game. The way he changed his own game to combat age. Is competitiveness he possessed is matched by very few people. And just his overall love of the game.

 

[af1 1982]

Jordan's skill set was unmatched though. The way he changed the game. The way he changed his own game to combat age. Is competitiveness he possessed is matched by very few people. And just his overall love of the game.

 

[grittyman20]

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Pretty much. MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and Magic are all in the discussion. It's not at all a stretch for any of those guys to be considered the GOAT. I'm sure if you wanted to make a case for either of them you can make a list of all of their individual accomplishments and go from there. It wasn't that hard for me to look up some information on KAJ and make a valid argument for him...yet some Jordan fanatics continue to say that it's ridiculous. 

Side note: Kareem wrote a letter in response to Pippen's LBJ comments in which he basically said that Wilt was the GOAT. Check it out

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

http://
Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately, 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

 

[grittyman20]

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Pretty much. MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt and Magic are all in the discussion. It's not at all a stretch for any of those guys to be considered the GOAT. I'm sure if you wanted to make a case for either of them you can make a list of all of their individual accomplishments and go from there. It wasn't that hard for me to look up some information on KAJ and make a valid argument for him...yet some Jordan fanatics continue to say that it's ridiculous. 

Side note: Kareem wrote a letter in response to Pippen's LBJ comments in which he basically said that Wilt was the GOAT. Check it out

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

http://
Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately, 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

 

[CP1708]

Man, Kareem be puttin his name in the papers ALOT lately. 

 

 

[CP1708]

Man, Kareem be puttin his name in the papers ALOT lately. 

 

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

and he'll still be the best conditioned athlete in the NBA. that has to combat the mileage a little.

but I would say we are currently seeing his absolute peak. Which IMO at this rate, will have spanned from 2008 through 2012.

His career is going to mirror Karl Malone's interms of  consistancy.....

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

and he'll still be the best conditioned athlete in the NBA. that has to combat the mileage a little.

but I would say we are currently seeing his absolute peak. Which IMO at this rate, will have spanned from 2008 through 2012.

His career is going to mirror Karl Malone's interms of  consistancy.....