Is it just the Jordan mystique that makes him the "undisputed" GOAT?

[hankmoody]

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

 

[hankmoody]

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

daiernchef made some good points. It is very disrespectful to Scottie whenever people make it seem like Jordan did all of this on his own. Which was most people's main argument against LeBron, Jordan did what LeBron couldn't do, win on his own. Jordan did what Kobe didn't do, win on his own (without Shaq/Pau). So I don't know why people keep insinuating that Jordan took a team full of scrubs to 6 rings.

He played with two former hall of famers.
He played for one of the best coaches on the pro level.

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.

Jordan was great, but I just hate the God like pedestal he is placed on. As if nothing he did was insufficient. As if he wasn't known as a terrible teammate (just like Kobe), but we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he wasn't arrogant, yet we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he didn't jack it up, yet we hate Kobe and AI for those same reasons. Yes Mike shot 50%, but can we honestly say he made his teammates better?

I guess since he got them open shots because he got doubled team? Well, I guess.

But just know there will never be a fair argument when fighting against Team Prince Air. It will never happen.

THIS 1000 percent i totally understand and this is what i try to make people understand but i get " YOUR FROM CHICAGO AND YOU LIKE THE PATRIOTS" remarks...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

daiernchef made some good points. It is very disrespectful to Scottie whenever people make it seem like Jordan did all of this on his own. Which was most people's main argument against LeBron, Jordan did what LeBron couldn't do, win on his own. Jordan did what Kobe didn't do, win on his own (without Shaq/Pau). So I don't know why people keep insinuating that Jordan took a team full of scrubs to 6 rings.

He played with two former hall of famers.
He played for one of the best coaches on the pro level.

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.

Jordan was great, but I just hate the God like pedestal he is placed on. As if nothing he did was insufficient. As if he wasn't known as a terrible teammate (just like Kobe), but we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he wasn't arrogant, yet we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he didn't jack it up, yet we hate Kobe and AI for those same reasons. Yes Mike shot 50%, but can we honestly say he made his teammates better?

I guess since he got them open shots because he got doubled team? Well, I guess.

But just know there will never be a fair argument when fighting against Team Prince Air. It will never happen.

THIS 1000 percent i totally understand and this is what i try to make people understand but i get " YOUR FROM CHICAGO AND YOU LIKE THE PATRIOTS" remarks...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

well think about who he was passing to, Kerr paxson hodges BJ Pippen, that helps when you can pass and get that assist when Kerr drops them threes, but what about when Lebron was kickin out to Mo Williams and he was clankin bricks, so thats on Lebron for wanting to leave that?? and for him not getting better assist stats and such because he couldnt rely on Paxson?? you also gotta take his team into account jordan didnt pass to himself guys...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

well think about who he was passing to, Kerr paxson hodges BJ Pippen, that helps when you can pass and get that assist when Kerr drops them threes, but what about when Lebron was kickin out to Mo Williams and he was clankin bricks, so thats on Lebron for wanting to leave that?? and for him not getting better assist stats and such because he couldnt rely on Paxson?? you also gotta take his team into account jordan didnt pass to himself guys...

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

daiernchef made some good points. It is very disrespectful to Scottie whenever people make it seem like Jordan did all of this on his own. Which was most people's main argument against LeBron, Jordan did what LeBron couldn't do, win on his own. Jordan did what Kobe didn't do, win on his own (without Shaq/Pau). So I don't know why people keep insinuating that Jordan took a team full of scrubs to 6 rings.

He played with two former hall of famers.
He played for one of the best coaches on the pro level.

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.

Jordan was great, but I just hate the God like pedestal he is placed on. As if nothing he did was insufficient. As if he wasn't known as a terrible teammate (just like Kobe), but we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he wasn't arrogant, yet we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he didn't jack it up, yet we hate Kobe and AI for those same reasons. Yes Mike shot 50%, but can we honestly say he made his teammates better?
  

QFT!

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

daiernchef made some good points. It is very disrespectful to Scottie whenever people make it seem like Jordan did all of this on his own. Which was most people's main argument against LeBron, Jordan did what LeBron couldn't do, win on his own. Jordan did what Kobe didn't do, win on his own (without Shaq/Pau). So I don't know why people keep insinuating that Jordan took a team full of scrubs to 6 rings.

He played with two former hall of famers.
He played for one of the best coaches on the pro level.

Jordan was great and I am not taking anything away from him, but I wish there was a way we could measure Jordan without his shoes and pop appeal being an influence because those things cloud many people's judgment when it comes to these discussions.

Jordan was great, but I just hate the God like pedestal he is placed on. As if nothing he did was insufficient. As if he wasn't known as a terrible teammate (just like Kobe), but we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he wasn't arrogant, yet we hate Kobe for that same reason. As if he didn't jack it up, yet we hate Kobe and AI for those same reasons. Yes Mike shot 50%, but can we honestly say he made his teammates better?
  

QFT!

 

[crazy dav0]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan averaged 8 assists a game in 1989...

No one in NBA history can replicate his 1991-1993 stretch. That is the pinnacle to me.

edit: Can someone make the argument for another player? I'd like to read it.

 

[hankmoody]

Mo Williams was an all-star (hehe) and isn't doing too badly with the Clippers. He's not THAT bad. Dude averaged 17 and 6 in Milwaukee.

Every star has great role players. Again, make a case for someone else. I'd like to read it... unless you say LeBron. Then I won't read it.

 

[crazy dav0]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan averaged 8 assists a game in 1989...

No one in NBA history can replicate his 1991-1993 stretch. That is the pinnacle to me.

edit: Can someone make the argument for another player? I'd like to read it.

 

[hankmoody]

Mo Williams was an all-star (hehe) and isn't doing too badly with the Clippers. He's not THAT bad. Dude averaged 17 and 6 in Milwaukee.

Every star has great role players. Again, make a case for someone else. I'd like to read it... unless you say LeBron. Then I won't read it.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Mo Williams was an all-star (hehe) and isn't doing too badly with the Clippers. He's not THAT bad. Dude averaged 17 and 6 in Milwaukee.

Every star has great role players. Again, make a case for someone else. I'd like to read it... unless you say LeBron. Then I won't read it.

LOL i love the Lebron hate, i mean i really dont have anyone to go at you with because my favorite player all time is Hakeem and next Shaq and i cant really argue them on here ill get eaten alive, and Lebron ill just get the 6 rings thing so its pointless but tell me this, say Lebron wins at least 6 str8 rings right now and he's the Main Star thru it all say he wins the MVPS and finals MVPs and even almost averages a triple double a season, would any of you Jordan lovers give him respect then?? 3would he be in the convo? or will it then be back to he had wade and jordan had nobody? cus right now i see Bron as better All around player then jordan just like pippen...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Mo Williams was an all-star (hehe) and isn't doing too badly with the Clippers. He's not THAT bad. Dude averaged 17 and 6 in Milwaukee.

Every star has great role players. Again, make a case for someone else. I'd like to read it... unless you say LeBron. Then I won't read it.

LOL i love the Lebron hate, i mean i really dont have anyone to go at you with because my favorite player all time is Hakeem and next Shaq and i cant really argue them on here ill get eaten alive, and Lebron ill just get the 6 rings thing so its pointless but tell me this, say Lebron wins at least 6 str8 rings right now and he's the Main Star thru it all say he wins the MVPS and finals MVPs and even almost averages a triple double a season, would any of you Jordan lovers give him respect then?? 3would he be in the convo? or will it then be back to he had wade and jordan had nobody? cus right now i see Bron as better All around player then jordan just like pippen...

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

HankMoody wrote:

---

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

I still think Magic is the greatest and I love Michaels on court accomplishments.
I feel like sometimes I judge money off the floor harder than I ever did on the floor.
I give a certain amount of credit to Double J's for making me realise that.
But looking at the numbers its clear that
Magic
Jordan
Bird
Duncan
Kareem, Wilt
are the GOATS at their positions
Then it comes down to how much do you value
Their ability to fit into a scheme
Passing
Defensive accolades
etc
I would still be inclined to pick Magic though.
But I think its the fact that he used less posessions that does it for me.
PER doesnt fully represent it
Stat's only tell half the story.
Your attempting to make something scientific that because of the various accomplishments of all the players, the different eras and the different positions played is subjective.
Just my thoughts though.
After the inital retirement those guys had confidance from NOT playing with Jordan.....
Plus it was a virtually new group.
He made those teams better though no dispute there.
But when you can say that for half a guys career he didnt make his teammates better....
I dont know. I could easily make that argument... but it doesn't matter
DC
Assists became the end all be all when everyone became stat geeks Instead of watching the game and realising that assists are SUBJECTIVE to the home score keeper. We like to look at the end of a basketball game and look at points ( not in any fashion subjective), assists  and field goal percentage.
The Chicago Bulls of this season functioned better with less talent than the OKC thunder, but people want to legitimately argue that Westbrook and Rose are in the same stratosphere . To me the Bulls functioned as a complete team, sans the fact they don't have another guy they trust dribbling the ball.
Westbrook continually was a  detriment from his team being a team. Rose had tough games when he realised that everyone else was scared. There is a difference.
Where as basketball discussions used to be too subjective they are now too stat oriented.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

HankMoody wrote:

---

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

I still think Magic is the greatest and I love Michaels on court accomplishments.
I feel like sometimes I judge money off the floor harder than I ever did on the floor.
I give a certain amount of credit to Double J's for making me realise that.
But looking at the numbers its clear that
Magic
Jordan
Bird
Duncan
Kareem, Wilt
are the GOATS at their positions
Then it comes down to how much do you value
Their ability to fit into a scheme
Passing
Defensive accolades
etc
I would still be inclined to pick Magic though.
But I think its the fact that he used less posessions that does it for me.
PER doesnt fully represent it
Stat's only tell half the story.
Your attempting to make something scientific that because of the various accomplishments of all the players, the different eras and the different positions played is subjective.
Just my thoughts though.
After the inital retirement those guys had confidance from NOT playing with Jordan.....
Plus it was a virtually new group.
He made those teams better though no dispute there.
But when you can say that for half a guys career he didnt make his teammates better....
I dont know. I could easily make that argument... but it doesn't matter
DC
Assists became the end all be all when everyone became stat geeks Instead of watching the game and realising that assists are SUBJECTIVE to the home score keeper. We like to look at the end of a basketball game and look at points ( not in any fashion subjective), assists  and field goal percentage.
The Chicago Bulls of this season functioned better with less talent than the OKC thunder, but people want to legitimately argue that Westbrook and Rose are in the same stratosphere . To me the Bulls functioned as a complete team, sans the fact they don't have another guy they trust dribbling the ball.
Westbrook continually was a  detriment from his team being a team. Rose had tough games when he realised that everyone else was scared. There is a difference.
Where as basketball discussions used to be too subjective they are now too stat oriented.

 

[hankmoody]

I'd call him the GOAT if he does that. I already think he's top 20 all time even if he retired before tonight's game. First 8 years have been incredible...

 

[hankmoody]

I'd call him the GOAT if he does that. I already think he's top 20 all time even if he retired before tonight's game. First 8 years have been incredible...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

We've already seen James athletic and productive prime?? what NBA are you watching?? and in that prime which by what your saying was his first 7 years in the league he only took a team of nobodys to the finals, scored 25 str8 points in a EC finals game in 4th and OT, he came closest to averaging a triple double in a season ever since the big "O" you are ridiculous because you know what jordan did his first 7 years? Lose in the playoffs not make it to finals until pippen came and they made "JORDAN RULES" and oh he scored 63 in one playoff game, so yup your right Lebron has done nothing not to mention hes still younger then jordan was at this point in there careers... ohhh and 2 MVP's for Lebron..
  

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

We've already seen James athletic and productive prime?? what NBA are you watching?? and in that prime which by what your saying was his first 7 years in the league he only took a team of nobodys to the finals, scored 25 str8 points in a EC finals game in 4th and OT, he came closest to averaging a triple double in a season ever since the big "O" you are ridiculous because you know what jordan did his first 7 years? Lose in the playoffs not make it to finals until pippen came and they made "JORDAN RULES" and oh he scored 63 in one playoff game, so yup your right Lebron has done nothing not to mention hes still younger then jordan was at this point in there careers... ohhh and 2 MVP's for Lebron..
  

 

[kobefan23]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Longevity does/should count for something; we're talking top 5 players of all time. Would you rather have KAJ for 20 years at the most important position in basketball, or MJ for 13 years? I don't know, but it's definitely a factor.There's definitely a mystique around MJ that clouds people's judgment that makes them forget the difficulty coaching him, getting him to play the team game, etc.

Quick aside for the stat guys: why do we put so much value on usage rate? While you're impacting many possessions, isn't it a sure sign the ball is glued to your hands most of the game?

 

[kobefan23]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Jordan's USAGE rt is the highest in NBA history yet his turnover pct is also top 20 lowest in NBA history. The ball should have been in his hands...most efficient player in NBA history... most win shares per 48 minutes in NBA history...

Not to mention the top two or three offenses in the history of the league featured MJ as the player with the highest usage rate. And anyone who watched the '98 playoffs knows that MJ makes his teammates better, with his presence, his play, his determination, etc.

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that? And don't say it's because people are denying the LeBron comparisons, as if they are reasonable. We've already seen James' athletic and productive prime and he wasn't as good as MJ, and that can proven through empirical analysis. It's almost impossible to imagine him ever being as accomplished as him either. Thus he isn't better. Period.

MJ is the greatest, and this can be proven through statistical analysis, player/coach/scout accounts, and just watching him play. The fact that this is even being brought up because LeBron is perhaps about to win his first finals game is beyond me.

The point OP is trying to make (and I agree to an extent) is that while most of us would agree that MJ=GOAT, it's not to the degree where it's laughable to even argue for anyone else. It's impossible to make a case that Wayne Gretzky isn't the greatest hockey player ever--he owns every record. It's impossible to make a case that Jerry Rice isn't the best receiver ever. Both those guys literally lapped the field. I don't think MJ is THAT far ahead of whoever is ranked 2nd/3rd where you can't even mention anyone's name but Mike's in a GOAT discussion.

Longevity does/should count for something; we're talking top 5 players of all time. Would you rather have KAJ for 20 years at the most important position in basketball, or MJ for 13 years? I don't know, but it's definitely a factor.There's definitely a mystique around MJ that clouds people's judgment that makes them forget the difficulty coaching him, getting him to play the team game, etc.

Quick aside for the stat guys: why do we put so much value on usage rate? While you're impacting many possessions, isn't it a sure sign the ball is glued to your hands most of the game?

 

[|A-Man|]

No but it's a part of it. Impact should be accounted for as well. Jordan was in a special opportune position picking up from where Magic, Bird, and Dr. Jay left off and kinda crossed a new frontier for the superstars of today. He's one of the main reasons they have this level of media attention and multi-million dollar contracts.

IMO, for one player to surpass MJ they'd have to do what Bill Russell did AND be one of if not the most dynamic player in the league.