Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

How would I be a 'zionist'? I don't defend Israel's actions, much less support them. I don't think anyone with a brain can deny Western imperialism/colonialism has been the most destructive overall. I don't think there's even a debate there. Just look at what my tiny country did in Africa, specifically Congho.
....

Well, technically, from what I have read:
"Liberal Zionism is the insistence that there is no necessary contradiction between Israel's dual identity as a Jewish and democratic state: that Israel can be a national home and refuge for the Jewish people while also embodying universal democratic principles of human rights and equality."

But there is a lot of nuances for me when it comes to pro-Liberal Zionists. So, sometimes when I read others views, I try to categorize where most likely they fit to understand their perspective and views, even if I may disagree/agree with it. It is just how I categorize viewpoints on political topics in my brain.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the other topics as well.

Ugh, yes, King Leopold's history on his atrocities in the Congo are on some OTHER level. Some deem it as probably one of the largest mass genocides and extermination of another people by an imperial power in modern history. Yet, it is NEVER taught in our school system.

Is it taught in the Belgian education system? I just found out about it THIS year, because of what's going on in Gaza, and it just sprung up and I want to read this one book on this topic.

 

[me love nutella]

You keep insinuating that I am using the report as the smoking gun that proves the Israeli allegations that Hamas systematically ordered sexual assaults to take place. I am not, and you're not reading what I am typing.
Patten did not go to Israel to conduct an investigation on who sexually assaulted victims; she went there to determine whether it happened, and the evidence she uncovered is enough to declare that sexual assault happened on Oct 7th, and is happening with Israeli hostages.

Furthermore, the methodology that was used to disprove some of the allegations of rape made by Israelis is the same methodology that was used to assess the rape allegations from former refugees. Both conclusions were based on the coherence (or lack thereof) of the stories. You can't accept the results you like and discount the ones you don't; you either take everything the methodology gives you, or you reject all the results from it.

And I do maintain that this is a weird hill to die on if the goal is to minimize the attack of Oct 7th. At the end of the day, a "foreign" government ordered their "military" to enter hostile territory to kill and kidnap as many folks as they could.

Again, you're missing a very important points made about that report. Pramila Patten's UN Report came out to much fanfare in Western media even though it had no investigative mandate, relied entirely on Israeli propaganda, and debunked their own maximalist version of the "mass rape" hoax. I never said I can 100% vouch that not ONE SA happened on October 7th. The report claims some SA may have taken place from the information they reviewed and received from second-hand testimonies, but yet were not investigated or corroborated.

Israel went about that this as if it was "mass and widespread" and used as a systemic tool of war. That is where the report made NO such claim. There is a difference between possibility of alleged isolated incidents and alleged MASS SYSTEMIC & WIDESPREAD.

The report took the minimalist version of the hoax is that yes, but there wasn't an intentional, systematic mass rape, but rape happened and it points to debunked testimonies from Zaka, volunteers and others, which independent journalists have run through and shown.

I just think that after 75 years of conflict, Israel has established its right to exist; however, the shape of this state has yet to be finalized, and it will depend on the political and diplomatic strength of the Palestinian leadership. Unfortunately, the idea that all Palestinians will return to the 1947 territories is no longer achievable, but that doesn't mean that ALL is lost. Israelis have positioned themselves to benefit from any violent action against their own statehood project at the expense of Palestinian land. By hanging onto Hamas and other armed resistance groups, Palestinians are delaying the process that will allow them to finalize the creation of this state, and they are denying themselves the ability to kick Israelis out from the remaining territories that they can keep control of in much more permanent ways.

Yes, that is liberal Zionism. Because if you ask me, Israel does not have the right to exist, and 75 years old is quite young. I know Palestinian elderly that are older than the state of Israel.

That is a very narrow view, in time and place, of militant Islamism in particular and religious extremism in general. You don't need to buy into a civilization clash to recognize the expansionist capabilities of militant Islamism.
Have you ever heard of Usman Dan Fodio and Modibo Adama? What if I told you that their religious campaign to establish political entities the Adamawa emirate drove many people out of the places they used to live in long before the British created Nigeria? Today, the same region is experiencing a renewal of this type of proselytizing thanks to Boko Haram.

I seriously think militant Islamism can only flourish and take on where there's majority Muslim countries, or a bigger significant population and corrupt/autocratic regimes. I do not see it as a global/world threat as the West makes it seem. Russia?China? They could be the only leveled nemesis in my opinion to the US/Western powers.

Ok, you are taking history way back in another period considering Islamism from the 1500-1700s? That is a bit different, as that time, there wasn't much much separation between the church and state under many kingdoms and empires, no?

I am talking about Islamism as a political/religious phenomenon linked to the great events of the 20th century. That is a whole different ballgame and that one is linked as a reaction to Western colonialism/imperialism.

 

[me love nutella]

Can we just make sure we understand what "Zionist" actually means? A Zionist simply agrees with the idea that Israel - a Jewish state - should exist. That's all. If you don't believe that Israel should (or even does) exist, you are "anti-Zionist." If you're like much of the post WWII world and think Israel should exist (and recognize its existence), you're technically a "Zionist." There's not a lot of grey area there. We can have differing ideas of how Israel should be governed, but the place is there. It's not going anywhere. The country is formally recognized by most of the civilized world. There's no going back to a pre-Israel world unless it loses a regional war or is dismantled, which is the ultimate goal of "anti-Zionists."

So let's not conflate Zionism with "pro-Jew," "pro-Likud," "pro-Netanyahu" or "pro-Israeli war policy." It's just "Israel is a country and should remain one." The term gets thrown around like a pejorative, but it's not, unless you really don't want Israel to be a thing. And the ones throwing it around in I/P debates most definitely don't want Israel to be a thing.

Israel never even established its legal and binding borders. Israel is also one of the few countries that doesn't have a formal constitution. The UN Partition Plan was a sham. It was a plan recommended only, and votes were bought off by Zionists, but it was never legally binding.

We are not talking about two naturally occurring populations which have a land dispute. Israelis are descended from settlers that arrived from abroad with the goal of erecting an ethnocratic settler state in an area that was already settled and populated, with a majority population of Arabicized peoples (even Arab Jews before they were coopted into Israeli identity and erased of their Arabness).

Palestinians are too much of a liability, and that is why Israel has been trying to make them submit and coopted or quell their resistance. We're especially talking about Israel wanting to take ALL of Palestine as Zionists always wanted. They even wanted Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. Israel also wants all of Jerusalem and the religious Zionist Jewish zealots that want to build a third temple, and Christian Zionist psychos that want the rapture and arrival of Armageddon. So no, they were never going to let Palestinians get sovereignty and self-determination either way, but there is still quite the resistance. Also, having the indigenous Palestinians on your borders who are actually authentic and native when you are descendants of colonizers/settlers and yourself a settler or colonizer, is not sustainable. Palestinian demography is a huge threat to them as well.

Borders and nations fall and change throughout history and time. Would anyone have thought the USSR would fall and have new borders? Yugoslavia? Etc. What about if the U.S. and other countries somehow tell Israel to F off and stop supporting or funding them? Or the US empire falls?

Israel is still quite young as a nation-state.

Never say never.

 

[DLF]

Sooooooo…..is anyone gonna ever ask why Biden is building a 320 million dollar port in Gaza for “aid” when he can just call Netanyahu and tell him to let the thousands of trucks in awaiting in Rafah?

Wonder what that port is really for???

 

[snkrfollower]

Israel never even established its legal and binding borders. Israel is also one of the few countries that doesn't have a formal constitution. The UN Partition Plan was a sham. It was a plan recommended only, and votes were bought off by Zionists, but it was never legally binding.

We are not talking about two naturally occurring populations which have a land dispute. Israelis are descended from settlers that arrived from abroad with the goal of erecting an ethnocratic settler state in an area that was already settled and populated, with a majority population of Arabicized peoples (even Arab Jews before they were coopted into Israeli identity and erased of their Arabness).

Palestinians are too much of a liability, and that is why Israel has been trying to make them submit and coopted or quell their resistance. We're especially talking about Israel wanting to take ALL of Palestine as Zionists always wanted. They even wanted Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. Israel also wants all of Jerusalem and the religious Zionist Jewish zealots that want to build a third temple, and Christian Zionist psychos that want the rapture and arrival of Armageddon. So no, they were never going to let Palestinians get sovereignty and self-determination either way, but there is still quite the resistance. Also, having the indigenous Palestinians on your borders who are actually authentic and native when you are descendants of colonizers/settlers and yourself a settler or colonizer, is not sustainable. Palestinian demography is a huge threat to them as well.

Borders and nations fall and change throughout history and time. Would anyone have thought the USSR would fall and have new borders? Yugoslavia? Etc. What about if the U.S. and other countries somehow tell Israel to F off and stop supporting or funding them? Or the US empire falls?

Israel is still quite young as a nation-state.

Never say never.

While I know that we disagree, I totally respect your reply

 

[earldagoat]

 

[Methodical Management]

So if you want terrorists to run your state, and don't step up to remove them as they build a terrorist infrastructure throughout your most populated areas, and the terrorists then attack the more well-equipped neighbor, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the collateral damage that will follow when that neighbor unloads on them in response.

Isn't this the same logic as claiming that an Israeli teenager who was killed while attending a concert on 10/7 “had it coming” because the extremist political leaders for whom they were too young to have voted committed state-sponsored violence?

Over 13,000 children have already been killed in Gaza. Tens of thousands more are imperiled by hunger and lack of access to basic infrastructure, including medical care and clean water.

They didn't ask for this.


Nor is it fair to assume that the 1.7 million people (representing over seventy percent of the population) who’ve now been displaced, the over 30,000 dead, or the 1.1 million people facing famine asked for - much less deserve - their plight.


If you’re annoyed by cause-hopping grifters or slacktivist poseurs, join the club, but I don’t recall anyone asking for their representation, either, so characterizing the people who are actually in harm’s way right now as deserving “collateral damage” for the actions or attitudes of people who largely aren’t strikes me as hypocritical at best.

The truth is, most of us know what it’s like to be represented by people whose policies and actions do not represent our will. If you didn’t “step up to remove” Donald Trump before his administration implemented a family separation policy, had federal officers in unmarked vans detain BLM protesters without explanation, or ordered airstrikes that killed thousands of civilians, should you or your family have been made to suffer for it?

Criticism of a government is not hate speech, but dehumanization is. So if you believe it’s wrong to act as though there’s no such thing as an innocent Israeli civilian, or an innocent American civilian, why wouldn’t you feel the same about Palestinian civilians?

 

[rexanglorum]

Isn't this the same logic as claiming that an Israeli teenager who was killed while attending a concert on 10/7 “had it coming” because the extremist political leaders for whom they were too young to have voted committed state-sponsored violence?

Over 13,000 children have already been killed in Gaza. Tens of thousands more are imperiled by hunger and lack of access to basic infrastructure, including medical care and clean water.

They didn't ask for this.


Nor is it fair to assume that the 1.7 million people (representing over seventy percent of the population) who’ve now been displaced, the over 30,000 dead, or the 1.1 million people facing famine asked for - much less deserve - their plight.


If you’re annoyed by cause-hopping grifters or slacktivist poseurs, join the club, but I don’t recall anyone asking for their representation, either, so characterizing the people who are actually in harm’s way right now as deserving “collateral damage” for the actions or attitudes of people who largely aren’t strikes me as hypocritical at best.

The truth is, most of us know what it’s like to be represented by people whose policies and actions do not represent our will. If you didn’t “step up to remove” Donald Trump before his administration implemented a family separation policy, had federal officers in unmarked vans detain BLM protesters without explanation, or ordered airstrikes that killed thousands of civilians, should you or your family have been made to suffer for it?

Criticism of a government is not hate speech, but dehumanization is. So if you believe it’s wrong to act as though there’s no such thing as an innocent Israeli civilian, or an innocent American civilian, why wouldn’t you feel the same about Palestinian civilians?

As soon as a foreign policy argument goes "well, you should just overthrow your government and then my government will change course towards the citizenry" it's basically this:




The idea that you're personally responsible for your country's leaders' transgressions is ludicrous. As you said, by that logic, every American is an ardent Trump supporter because we, Americans, didn't overthrow him when we had over four year's worth of time to do so.

 

[DLF]

 

[Belgium]

Well, technically, from what I have read:
"Liberal Zionism is the insistence that there is no necessary contradiction between Israel's dual identity as a Jewish and democratic state: that Israel can be a national home and refuge for the Jewish people while also embodying universal democratic principles of human rights and equality."

But there is a lot of nuances for me when it comes to pro-Liberal Zionists. So, sometimes when I read others views, I try to categorize where most likely they fit to understand their perspective and views, even if I may disagree/agree with it. It is just how I categorize viewpoints on political topics in my brain.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the other topics as well.

Ugh, yes, King Leopold's history on his atrocities in the Congo are on some OTHER level. Some deem it as probably one of the largest mass genocides and extermination of another people by an imperial power in modern history. Yet, it is NEVER taught in our school system.

Is it taught in the Belgian education system? I just found out about it THIS year, because of what's going on in Gaza, and it just sprung up and I want to read this one book on this topic.

I feel like our history education was decent, at least the one I got. I don't recall the word genocide ever being used but we did learn about the atrocities Leopold committed and it's hard to reach a different conclusion.
There was a strong focus on the "handjes kappen" policy, which was a policy to chop off the hands of Congho citizens who were deemed to violate rules. Specifically anything involving alleged theft.
I think it was his focus on inflicting extreme levels of brutality and mutilation that really sets him apart from other colonizers. Supposedly Leopold expressed that he thought the hands chopping policy was stupid from an economic point of view (while noting that he would've chopped off other parts instead), but he certainly didn't do anything whatsoever to discourage it.

The hand chopping policy is still used as a racist cheer to this day. "Handjes kappen, de Congo is van ons", which translates to "chopping hands, the Congho belongs to us."
There have been leaked group chats involving far right politicians that included 'memes' involving that phrase. There was also a nationally significant trial in recent years where similar chats were brought up. It involved a hazing death and attempted cover-up by an elitist and largely white/wealthy fraternity. Group chats that were leaked to the press and/or brought up in trial showed multiple of the indicted fraternity members also using the phrase in a similar manner, with memes etc.

 

[snkrfollower]

Isn't this the same logic as claiming that an Israeli teenager who was killed while attending a concert on 10/7 “had it coming” because the extremist political leaders for whom they were too young to have voted committed state-sponsored violence?

Over 13,000 children have already been killed in Gaza. Tens of thousands more are imperiled by hunger and lack of access to basic infrastructure, including medical care and clean water.

They didn't ask for this.


Nor is it fair to assume that the 1.7 million people (representing over seventy percent of the population) who’ve now been displaced, the over 30,000 dead, or the 1.1 million people facing famine asked for - much less deserve - their plight.


If you’re annoyed by cause-hopping grifters or slacktivist poseurs, join the club, but I don’t recall anyone asking for their representation, either, so characterizing the people who are actually in harm’s way right now as deserving “collateral damage” for the actions or attitudes of people who largely aren’t strikes me as hypocritical at best.

The truth is, most of us know what it’s like to be represented by people whose policies and actions do not represent our will. If you didn’t “step up to remove” Donald Trump before his administration implemented a family separation policy, had federal officers in unmarked vans detain BLM protesters without explanation, or ordered airstrikes that killed thousands of civilians, should you or your family have been made to suffer for it?

Criticism of a government is not hate speech, but dehumanization is. So if you believe it’s wrong to act as though there’s no such thing as an innocent Israeli civilian, or an innocent American civilian, why wouldn’t you feel the same about Palestinian civilians?

Solid points, Meth... What I'd say in regards to both the "Israeli teen" analogy and the Trump analogy is that both the Israeli parliamentary and American representative/presidential democracy systems both include the safety valves of regularly-scheduled elections that allow both countries to fix their mistakes. Both systems have their flaws, of course, but the minority from one election needs only to work toward becoming the majority in the next to solve their most pressing issues. As a solid-blue liberal Democrat, I wish we could get the DSA crowd to work within the system to help fix stuff faster instead of trying to tear everything down from outside the system, but that's a topic for the Politics thread if I ever dare to step into that lol.

With Israel, they were clear of the ghoul Netanyahu for a few years there before Likud cobbled together their tenuous alliance with the other right wing parties to get back into control and put us where we are now. Here in the US, we thankfully tossed Trump out on his ear four years later and the government has been trying to fix everything he broke ever since. Frankly, I'd wager a majority of Americans did suffer under Trump and thankfully we voted to remedy the situation in 2020. We'll see if there's enough of us to prevent a relapse in November. I'd also say that Israelis are suffering under Netanyahu, and the onus is on them to vote in their parliamentary elections to give the center-left a majority in the next Knesset.

Gazans don't have that option, and it's because of Hamas and the convoluted system of government they have where (from what I can tell) their representative legislature is basically meaningless. Honestly, I had no idea until just now as I was looking some stuff up that there were protests in Gaza this past summer that Hamas crushed. I'm guessing -- and I'll let the folks here who are more immersed in this stuff fill me in if they're inclined -- Oct. 7 was probably a through-line from those protests. Either as a way to deflect from the famine and economic despair the Palestinians were already suffering from or to rally popular opinion back to Hamas around their hatred of Israel.

I never said they "deserved" to be collateral damage though - nobody deserves to be hurt or die due to their government, ever. And my saying "I don't have a lot of sympathy" was poorly worded. I do sympathize for the innocent losses. But what I should have said was that nobody -- Gazans and folks internationally who want Palestinian freedom included -- should have been surprised by the Israeli reaction to Oct. 7 and the level of casualties inflicted because of the way Hamas had established their infrastructure over the last two decades.

It's just such a ****ing miserable situation all around and who knows how long it will be before there can be some sort of shared peace over there -- if ever.

 

[DLF]

 

[Methodical Management]

As soon as a foreign policy argument goes "well, you should just overthrow your government and then my government will change course towards the citizenry" it's basically this:




The idea that you're personally responsible for your country's leaders' transgressions is ludicrous. As you said, by that logic, every American is an ardent Trump supporter because we, Americans, didn't overthrow him when we had over four year's worth of time to do so.

Also, you have to overthrow that regime while simultaneously backflipping through the flaming hula hoop of maintaining absolutely flawless discipline among anyone who claims - legitimately or otherwise - to be affiliated with your cause.


In 2020, we all saw how cherry picked examples of property damage, skirmishes with “Proud Boys”, or looting were used to justify police brutality and undermine the legitimacy of the protests sparked by George Floyd’s murder.

Gazans don't have that option, and it's because of Hamas and the convoluted system of government they have where (from what I can tell) their representative legislature is basically meaningless. Honestly, I had no idea until just now as I was looking some stuff up that there were protests in Gaza this past summer that Hamas crushed. I'm guessing -- and I'll let the folks here who are more immersed in this stuff fill me in if they're inclined -- Oct. 7 was probably a through-line from those protests. Either as a way to deflect from the famine and economic despair the Palestinians were already suffering from or to rally popular opinion back to Hamas around their hatred of Israel

I appreciate the revision re: sympathy. Perhaps it’s a similar case of misstatement, but the above quote comes across as saying that Palestinian people bear greater collective responsibility for their representatives’ wrongs because, overall, they have less control over their selection than people in the United States or Israel.

Palestinian people haven’t had the opportunity to participate in an election since 2006. Over half of the current population is too young to have participated in that election.

People Claim a Majority of Palestinians in Gaza Elected Hamas — Here's Why It Isn't That Simple

As violence intensifies in Gaza and Israel, claims about Hamas' place in Gaza's electoral history are circulating without important context.

www.snopes.com

 

[snkrfollower]

Also, you have to overthrow that regime while simultaneously backflipping through the flaming hula hoop of maintaining absolutely flawless discipline among anyone who claims - legitimately or otherwise - to be affiliated with your cause.


In 2020, we all saw how cherry picked examples of property damage, skirmishes with “Proud Boys”, or looting were used to justify police brutality and undermine the legitimacy of the protests sparked by George Floyd’s murder.



I appreciate the revision re: sympathy. Perhaps it’s a similar case of misstatement, but the above quote comes across as saying that Palestinian people bear greater collective responsibility for their representatives’ wrongs because, overall, they have less control over their selection than people in the United States or Israel.

Palestinian people haven’t had the opportunity to participate in an election since 2006. Over half of the current population is too young to have participated in that election.

People Claim a Majority of Palestinians in Gaza Elected Hamas — Here's Why It Isn't That Simple

As violence intensifies in Gaza and Israel, claims about Hamas' place in Gaza's electoral history are circulating without important context.

www.snopes.com

I mean, besides popular uprising what other means do the people have to oust Hamas, though? And does Fatah just fill the ensuing vacuum? I guess China's trying to broker a deal between them right now, anyway. And would that shared power dynamic be any better for the Palestinian people? I honestly have no idea. IMO whatever the gov't is/becomes needs to have a broader platform than "we gotta eliminate Israel" regardless. Work toward some form of solution. Now if Israel could just get Netanyahu tossed at exactly the same time...

 

[gry60]

Again, you're missing a very important points made about that report. Pramila Patten's UN Report came out to much fanfare in Western media even though it had no investigative mandate, relied entirely on Israeli propaganda, and debunked their own maximalist version of the "mass rape" hoax. I never said I can 100% vouch that not ONE SA happened on October 7th. The report claims some SA may have taken place from the information they reviewed and received from second-hand testimonies, but yet were not investigated or corroborated.

Israel went about that this as if it was "mass and widespread" and used as a systemic tool of war. That is where the report made NO such claim. There is a difference between possibility of alleged isolated incidents and alleged MASS SYSTEMIC & WIDESPREAD.

The report took the minimalist version of the hoax is that yes, but there wasn't an intentional, systematic mass rape, but rape happened and it points to debunked testimonies from Zaka, volunteers and others, which independent journalists have run through and shown.

I think you're reading what you want to read out of that report The mandate she didn't have was to investigate the prevalence of SA and who was responsible for it. As such, it made no conclusions on the extent of SA on Oct 7th. That is all.

Yes, that is liberal Zionism. Because if you ask me, Israel does not have the right to exist, and 75 years old is quite young.

75 years is older than most African and Asian countries, some of which have gone from federations to single nation-states (or split into multiple nations).

And I used "earned" because sometimes, humans fight for land; and when one group loses the war, they generally know how fast to quit in order to avoid losing everything. When I look at the Israel-Palestine issue, beyond the confirmation that "might makes right" seems to be the way the world goes, I also see a cautionary tale on how not to lose a conflict. When seven decades of armed resistance amount to less territory and less autonomy than the arrangement you initially rejected, you have to wonder whether committing multiple generations of people to an ideological war has been the wise choice. If, from 1967 to today, Palestinian leaders had not squandered the support that Palestinian statehood had in the Arab world and inside Israel in the pursuit of the destruction of said state, we could be seeing two states today, and maybe talks of a reunification of Mandatory Palestine (or a federation) would appear realistic.

I seriously think militant Islamism can only flourish and take on where there's majority Muslim countries, or a bigger significant population and corrupt/autocratic regimes. I do not see it as a global/world threat as the West makes it seem. Russia?China? They could be the only leveled nemesis in my opinion to the US/Western powers.

Ok, you are taking history way back in another period considering Islamism from the 1500-1700s? That is a bit different, as that time, there wasn't much much separation between the church and state under many kingdoms and empires, no?

I am talking about Islamism as a political/religious phenomenon linked to the great events of the 20th century. That is a whole different ballgame and that one is linked as a reaction to Western colonialism/imperialism.

The creation of the Adamawa emirate and the better known Sokoto caliphate were 19th century events. The motivations of their rulers were not that different from the motivations of modern Islamist groups, and their presence predated colonialism.

Usman dan Fodio - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Many of the people led by Usman ɗan Fodio were unhappy that the rulers of the Hausa states were mingling Islam with aspects of the traditional regional religion. Usman created a theocratic state with a stricter interpretation of Islam. In Tanbih al-ikhwan 'ala ahwal al-Sudan, he wrote: "As for the sultans, they are undoubtedly unbelievers, even though they may profess the religion of Islam, because they practice polytheistic rituals and turn people away from the path of God and raise the flag of a worldly kingdom above the banner of Islam. All this is unbelief according to the consensus of opinions"

 

[DLF]

Wow. Didn’t know this!!

 

[DLF]

Whhhhaaaaaa?!?

Genocide Joe lying?? No!!!

 

[me love nutella]

I think you're reading what you want to read out of that report The mandate she didn't have was to investigate the prevalence of SA and who was responsible for it. As such, it made no conclusions on the extent of SA on Oct 7th. That is all.

But, that's the whole point with how the media distorted it because Israel's whole propaganda was not about whether any SA took place, but that it was widespread and systematic. The pro-Palestinians were noting that there is no way it was widespread and systematic., and countering the media distortions.

We'll never know about if any actual SA ever took place, on October 7 as no victim even identified since. The report also mentioned alleged SA of Palestinian women.

75 years is older than most African and Asian countries, some of which have gone from federations to single nation-states (or split into multiple nations).

And I used "earned" because sometimes, humans fight for land; and when one group loses the war, they generally know how fast to quit in order to avoid losing everything. When I look at the Israel-Palestine issue, beyond the confirmation that "might makes right" seems to be the way the world goes, I also see a cautionary tale on how not to lose a conflict. When seven decades of armed resistance amount to less territory and less autonomy than the arrangement you initially rejected, you have to wonder whether committing multiple generations of people to an ideological war has been the wise choice. If, from 1967 to today, Palestinian leaders had not squandered the support that Palestinian statehood had in the Arab world and inside Israel in the pursuit of the destruction of said state, we could be seeing two states today, and maybe talks of a reunification of Mandatory Palestine (or a federation) would appear realistic.

There are points here I can argue, but we'll just keep going in circles. Remember Israel is modeled as a settler-colonial state.

What is there to balance, when one side has one of the most advanced armies in the world, financed and supplied by an allied superpower, and the other side has been altogether abandoned by allies and well-wishers and has only the determination and strength of its people to rely on? We will continue to leverage the global support, expand the BDS movement and will continue marching to the fence in Gaza until we bring this madness to an end. In my opinion, the best way to proceed forth, is to continue fighting through any means the people can, and then working on an alternative model, both democratic and secular, which guarantees equality and abolishes apartheid, bantustans and separation in Palestine altogether. We will not give up the fight.

Just remember, even the most strongest of empires and countries have eroded, and fell. 75 years is literally nothing, and still fresh. Israel is one of the last colonial outposts, and it is quite outdated and just doesn't fly anymore. Like I stated here earlier post, Israel hasn't even EVER established legal and binding borders, and doesn't have a written constitution because they could not agree what it even means to be Israel.

Israel has stopped playing the democracy pretence game and has revealed itself for what it really is: an apartheid state. Israel was founded from the Zionist ideology that is inherently racist and undemocratic. Again, Israel will not survive as a single Jewish ethnostate. In my opinion, the only thing left for Palestinians to do is fight for one state espousing democracy and secularism.

Palestinians are still here and still fighting, and we will even if that means our complete annihilation. That's how you know you are the natives of the land.

The creation of the Adamawa emirate and the better known Sokoto caliphate were 19th century events. The motivations of their rulers were not that different from the motivations of modern Islamist groups, and their presence predated colonialism.

So we are talking about 2 different phenomena still. Just read up a little I can quickly, looks like the Sokoto caliphate pre-colonial but then was dissolved when the British, French and Germans conquered the area in 1903. However, in the 1800s, you still had even had royal kingdoms in Europe run by Christianity. Even in the Western world, the separation between the church and the state started in 1848.

It is commonly held that European colonization and the efforts to modernise Muslim countries/lands, which challenged Islam and undermined local custom, and that Islamisation was generally opposed to European ideas and technologies and rejected local beliefs and practices. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Muslims reformed their practices and institutions, both as a response to the domination of their societies by non-Muslim imperial powers and as a way of becoming “modern.” European colonization reformed political Islamism as a phenomena to directly to counter modern colonial Westernization/Euro-Christian domination.

 

[DLF]

Lol

 

[me love nutella]

I feel like our history education was decent, at least the one I got. I don't recall the word genocide ever being used but we did learn about the atrocities Leopold committed and it's hard to reach a different conclusion.
There was a strong focus on the "handjes kappen" policy, which was a policy to chop off the hands of Congho citizens who were deemed to violate rules. Specifically anything involving alleged theft.
I think it was his focus on inflicting extreme levels of brutality and mutilation that really sets him apart from other colonizers. Supposedly Leopold expressed that he thought the hands chopping policy was stupid from an economic point of view (while noting that he would've chopped off other parts instead), but he certainly didn't do anything whatsoever to discourage it.

The hand chopping policy is still used as a racist cheer to this day. "Handjes kappen, de Congo is van ons", which translates to "chopping hands, the Congho belongs to us."
There have been leaked group chats involving far right politicians that included 'memes' involving that phrase. There was also a nationally significant trial in recent years where similar chats were brought up. It involved a hazing death and attempted cover-up by an elitist and largely white/wealthy fraternity. Group chats that were leaked to the press and/or brought up in trial showed multiple of the indicted fraternity members also using the phrase in a similar manner, with memes etc.

Very interesting. It is also like us here in Canada and how they glossed over or romanticized a bit when the French and West European settlers came, and even called them 'pioneers'. Not sure you heard, but for the last few years, there have been mass graves discovered where there were residential schools that stole and kidnapped 'Indigenous' children across Canadian provinces. It is abominable. Canada is still very nice quite racist, but likes to save face and portray its multiculturalism, as it still upholds settler-colonialism which have impacts and still ongoing today.

I did not know that King Leopold is still revered by the neo/alt-right type segment of Belgium. I do hear about the rise of right-wing politics and fascism in Europe, but that is very scary this is now very much out in the open.

 

[me love nutella]

Since Netanyahu has been likening the campus protests to Nazi Germany in 1930s. Here's one for him that shows he is modern day WWII genocidal villain:



Remember how tiny the Gaza Strip is as an enclave, as well as cramped, and as densely populated as London.