Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

Why we shouldn't discount the role of the Bush administration in the current stage:

Clueless in Gaza

George W. Bush's started a secret war on Hamas. Is Obama continuing it?

newrepublic.com

BTW, the EU did recognize that the elections were fair.












I don't think this is accurate.

Arab countries already have significant Palestinian populations, some of it being the result of this event. The last thing they want is creating a situation that would result in a second mass exodus. That's to say, most, if not all Arab countries support a two-state solution.

Saudi Arabia is looking for a defense pact with the US (hence the attempt to normalize ties with Israel); SA and Israel also share a common enemy in Iran.

UAE and Bahrain have already normalized ties with Israel.

Egypt is getting military assistance from the US in exchange for keeping the Suez canal open for trade, which includes daily transfer of millions of oil barrels).

Turkey is in NATO, so they're not funding terror groups anytime soon.

Only Iran benefits from funding Hamas, but

Spoiler

they're Persian

Thank you. The Arab governments have underlying ties to the West/ British./Americans They only use Palestinians as pawns. Many of these Arab governments have histories of monarchies or governments propped up by the British and French when they carved them up for independence and decolonization.

The West makes wars and overthrows any revolutions or elections that are not backed by them in the region.

Most powerful Arab countries have normalized ties with Israel and are antagonistic to the Palestinians in their countries and their refugee issue.

 

[me love nutella]

I mention Hamas tactics, not to paint one side as barbaric and one side as not. I don't care about measuring barbarism on either.

I mention it ONLY because it's relevant to the Israeli mindset.

Obviously Israeli's person in the wake of terror attacks is goings to view there defense forces as justified and the outgroup terrorist as not justified.
You sit hear and say to your blue in the face that Israel is worse. and Israeli person is never going to take that view, especially in the wake of spectacular audacious terror attacks.

Israel has the power, they are the ones who need to be convinced, and im sorry Baby broiling is not going to do it. regardless of who YOU think is better or worse.


Well yes of course, this is what makes the problem intractable.

Palestine's rightly feel oppressed, terorrists lash out
Which leads to Israeli's feeling unsafe, and electing right wing governments.

Both Hamas and the Israeli right wing both use each others escalations to get power
which justifies further escalations, which leads to more power
which leads to more escalations.

that's why the problem is difficult.



yah I think are fooling yourself, given the treatment of Jews historically across the globe,
understandably I don't think they will ever give up the idea of an ethnically Jewish state.

I think with a lot of guns and bombs you can't keep this sorry state of affairs going for a long time. and don't underestimate the risk of things getting worse.

Radicalization can work in both directions.

Israel is worse though on every metric. They're the occupiers and oppressors. Just because you think they aren't doesn't mean they're not. Two/both sides rhetoric is a cop out. Especially when you have the asymmetry and imbalance of power dynamics but also the oppressor vs the oppressed. So we cab agree to disagree.

Jews have not been the only ones around the world to be persecuted and marginalized. In modern times, they're definitely generally higher up in the social and economic hierarchy compared to other races/ethnicities.

But, I agree with you the Zionists have the upper hand and power. Also, I am not sure but would you say most Jews support an ethno-state? Also, how is an ethno state in that region safe for them or the existence of Israel? The only way Israel would lose power though is if they lose Western support/backing and alliances. Also if they lose alliances with the recent normalization with the powerful economic Arab states. That was another move that sealed the deal and triggered Hamas. They're close to official normalization with Saudi Arabia. Saudia Arabia and Iran are enemies, which means they are also enemies to Hamas.

I just can't see Israel surviving this way though due to the Palestinian demographic problem. It's a ticking time bomb.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Israel is worse though on every metric. They're the occupiers and oppressors. Just because you think they aren't doesn't mean they're not. Two/both sides rhetoric is a cop out. Especially when you have the asymmetry and imbalance of power dynamics but also the oppressor vs the oppressed. So we cab agree to disagree.

We can't agree to disagree because I never made a claim about who is worse.

I didn't say who is worse. I don't care who is worse. It's irrelevant to me.

You are trying to make this about again moral grand standing who is better/worse.

My point is it doesn't matter. Telling Israel they are worse is not going to get anyone any closer to peace.

And making arguments that don't take into account their perspective are pointless.

Jews have not been the only ones around the world to be persecuted and marginalized. In modern times, they're definitely generally higher up in the social and economic hierarchy compared to other races/ethnicities.

Cool that you don't think that.
But they think that, and since they are the ones with the guns, we have to take their opinion in account.

But, I agree with you the Zionists have the upper hand and power. Also, I am not sure but would you say most Jews support an ethno-state? Also, how is an ethno state in that region safe for them or the existence of Israel? The only way Israel would lose power though is if they lose Western support/backing and alliances. Also if they lose alliances with the recent normalization with the powerful economic Arab states. That was another move that sealed the deal and triggered Hamas. They're close to official normalization with Saudi Arabia. Saudia Arabia and Iran are enemies, which means they are also enemies to Hamas.

I just can't see Israel surviving this way though due to the Palestinian demographic problem. It's a ticking time

An ethno state as in a Jewish democratic state with automatic citizenship for any Jewish person?

Things are always complex but it seems like yah that's what Jewish people want Israel to be.

I can just as easily see things going the other direction. Putting Israel's back against the wall leading them to move further right wing to the point they start embracing real deal final solution type genocide.

 

[htg designs]

*Map of Arabic speaking countries

There's a reason why they are Arabic speaking.

Arab world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Although no globally accepted definition of the Arab world exists,[6] all countries that are members of the Arab League are generally acknowledged as being part of the Arab world.[6][27]"

 

[elpablo21]

 

[Brownstone]

There was a war, Palestine lost

For Jews to say "God gave them the land" is delusional and dishonest

 

[IATT]

 

[gry60]

to be clear I don't mean all arab states want isreal gone.
Im saying Hamas will be funded by the ones that do.

I don't know if there are a lot of them. The sentiment about Israel and Palestine in the streets of Arab countries certainly doesn't match the way their policymakers feel.

if Israel disappeared you don't think PLO and Hamas would be in a war for control?

Depends on the relationship that both organizations enjoy at the time of that disappearance. On the basis of ideology alone, there would definitely be a struggle for control.

the point ultimately is whatever you think, it's certainly not unreasonable for Jews to fear subjection...it's kinda like there whole thing for like millennia.

I agree, which is why I don't think a single state is a feasible solution.

The extremist factions in Israel and Palestine have too much influence on policy to live side by side without open disdain. They tend to not compromise, and compromise is necessary for a multicultural society to not break apart.

 

[Coromanti]

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand the whole ties between extremist Zionists and Evangelicals/white supremacist nationalists is the enemy of my enemy is my friend. It is based on power to uphold the white supremacy colonial system. They just have deeper connections politically because the religious extremist Christians believe in the interpreted Biblical prophecy of once Jews all return to the land, Jesus will come.

As for who are the Palestinians, they are mixed from different and diverse backgrounds. Some studies have traced them back to the Canaanites that also were original inhabitants of that land. Same with Jews in a sense where their blood got mixed too.

There are none of us who are pure as we all did crossover migration and some migrated elsewhere than their origin lands.

Also, I am not one to trust religious texts for origins of where people came from. But many Jews and Arabs use the basis of the tribes that were mentioned in the religious texts. Because some will say Arabs and Jews are cousins from the religious texts. But to me the religious texts are not credible.

I actually would disagree with you about the credibility of religious texts. The Torah in particular.

The issue is we look at history from an “accuracy” lens whereas back then they recorded history from a “what’s the point” lens. So the Torah/Tanakh looks less than credible because not every detail holds up to scrutiny.

I actually believe the Hebrew Scriptures can generally be regarded as an authentic yet inaccurate history given we have outside proof for the majority of events recorded although some details have been mythologized to make a certain point.

The fact that both Jews and Arabs are generally accepting of the ancient “facts” I think is a good sign that there is general truth there. Like all family and lineage myths the further you get from events the less accurate the story becomes although the general point of the story is largely unchanged.

——

As for the evangelicals….I think you’re on the money. Jews are coded as “white” (enough) from a western perspective + their goofy prophecy about the rapture and they are all aboard the Israel train.

 

[Coromanti]

It is an unfortunate perspective. I think there are legitimate criticisms one can make about the state of Israel without being against the nation of Israel aka the Jewish people.

I myself don’t even dislike the Israeli project conceptually. The problem is their manner of going about this project.

Being against bombing Gaza to smithereens shouldn’t be seen as standing against the Jews or being antisemitic.

 

[me love nutella]

We can't agree to disagree because I never made a claim about who is worse.

I didn't say who is worse. I don't care who is worse. It's irrelevant to me.

You are trying to make this about again moral grand standing who is better/worse.

My point is it doesn't matter. Telling Israel they are worse is not going to get anyone any closer to peace.

And making arguments that don't take into account their perspective are pointless.



Cool that you don't think that.
But they think that, and since they are the ones with the guns, we have to take their opinion in account.



An ethno state as in a Jewish democratic state with automatic citizenship for any Jewish person?

Things are always complex but it seems like yah that's what Jewish people want Israel to be.

I can just as easily see things going the other direction. Putting Israel's back against the wall leading them to move further right wing to the point they start embracing real deal final solution type genocide.

Thanks for clarifying your positions. Sometimes it is hard to read on here when it is not in person or audio conversations.

When I said worse, I meant as in the situation from a colonial/human rights/laws and theories. But, I think we can add a moral stance when necessary, because that's how we make judgments to end conflicts and war crimes, human rights atrocities.

As mentioned, I agree Israel always had the upper hand because of who they are backed by, and the Palestinians never really had an actual Arab state leader that actually walked the talk. Actually, the only one that did was Saddam Hussein., as he was allied with the PLO at one point. I would say Qatar could be, but they can be wishy washy.

The other Arab states just use Palestinians as pawns, but are more so more in stronger relationships and alliances with the West/Israel.

I just think Netanyahu is a mega-maniac and delusional to think he will not have to resign after this. I can see Hamas will gain more popularity and support within Palestinians and the Arab/Muslim/anti-colonial world. But I cannot see Netanyahu get support after what people are not seeing is a genocide, and him not showing restraint. It is considered the biggest intelligence failure with the Hamas attacks, isn't it? But he has always been able to evade corruption charges and getting away with anything and everything. So, let's say he resigns, what if a more centrist/leftist government takes over? That can happen. We'll see.

 

[me love nutella]

I would like to add what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza is not just because of the Hamas attacks, but already planned in the works for short-term/long-term goals. That's why I wonder if it was really an intelligence failure and Israel knew nothing of the Hamas operation, or they let it happen.

From analysis I have been reading for months now, Netanyahu's Israeli government actually wants to take over Gaza and develop it for Israel.

The goal is to flatten Gaza, kill off as many Gazans and have the rest pushed out even further. Hamas is telling Gazans to stay put and not fall for the trap to go into Egypt's Sinai. The IDF is killing off Palestinians in convoys headed to escape anyways. Also, if Gazans leave, they will not be able to go back. Egypt now is a roadblock for Israel's plan because it is saying it'll not take the Gazan refugees and does not want a humanitarian crisis on its hands. That's what happened with Palestinians throughout wars as they still remain refugees since 1948 and 1967 in neighboring Arab countries where Israel is refusing to allow them to return in violation of international law. Also, this is in hopes of pushing Hamas out into exile like they did with the PLO in the 80s who then relocated and set up camp in Lebanon.

Next phase is to take annex full control of the West Bank and make Jerusalem the capital of Israel (also push Palestinians out to Jordan).

 

[ballinsam23]

osh kosh bosh for someone who is not of Palestinian descent nor ever lived in Israel you've been pretty spot on with your posts

 

[me love nutella]

Not sure how to embed here or this will work, but a short video explaining how this can become WW3 if this war/ conflict expands.

 

[me love nutella]

I actually would disagree with you about the credibility of religious texts. The Torah in particular.

The issue is we look at history from an “accuracy” lens whereas back then they recorded history from a “what’s the point” lens. So the Torah/Tanakh looks less than credible because not every detail holds up to scrutiny.

I actually believe the Hebrew Scriptures can generally be regarded as an authentic yet inaccurate history given we have outside proof for the majority of events recorded although some details have been mythologized to make a certain point.

The fact that both Jews and Arabs are generally accepting of the ancient “facts” I think is a good sign that there is general truth there. Like all family and lineage myths the further you get from events the less accurate the story becomes although the general point of the story is largely unchanged.

——

As for the evangelicals….I think you’re on the money. Jews are coded as “white” (enough) from a western perspective + their goofy prophecy about the rapture and they are all aboard the Israel train.

I am an atheist, so I believe none of these religious texts.

As for the Torah, it's also not credible to me either along with the other religious Abrahaimic texts after it.

I have read from Jewish scholars that the Torah's stories and places don't even match the archeology that's been found.

For example, summary on the book the Bible Unearthed from Wikipedia:

"Finkelstein and Silberman contend that the composition of the Bible began in the Iron Age, centuries after the events of Israel's founding myths—the patriarchs and the Exodus from Egypt. They argue that numerous biblical passages conflict with the Bronze Age and Iron Age archaeological record of the Land of Israel, and that the text reflects an authorship bias toward the Kingdom of Judah at the expense of the Kingdom of Israel. They also reject the historical plausibility of a prosperous united kingdom of Israel and Judah ruled by David and Solomon from Jerusalem in the 10th century BCE, instead positing this narrative as an ideological construct promoted by late Judahite kings such as Hezekiah and Josiah. The book was both praised and criticized by biblical scholars for its reconstruction of ancient Israel's history."

Also, I have read that the Torah's Promised Land to the Jews is not interpreted the same by Jewish religious scholars. For instance, some think it's not supposed to be given to the Israelites permanently or even it is not for them but some other tribe/descendents or to just only them. Whereas some others believe they can establish the state of Israelites but it has to happen naturally and not enforced as the Jews are supposed to be decreed in exile.

 

[elpablo21]

This woman is so self absorbed

 

[degenerate423]

In what world are Jews standing alone? White supremacists are even standing with them right now .

 

[me love nutella]

There’s been a lot of talk in the past week that Israel may use the events of October 7 as a pretext for attacking Iran. If Hezbollah enters [the war] in a major way, then the argument is going to be made that Hezbollah is simply an armed unit or subdivision of Iran, and therefore it will justify an attack on Iran,” he told Al Jazeera from New York.

“I do not believe Israel is capable of fighting a war on two fronts… If Hezbollah enters the war, if Israel uses that as a pretext to launch what it’s wanted for a very long time now – a preemptive strike on Iran – I can’t imagine it can do it in any other way except to use a tactical nuclear weapon.

US to move second aircraft carrier to Mediterranean as Gaza tensions grow

Regional tensions rise as Israel continues bombing Gaza, killing at least 2,215 Palestinians and injuring some 8,700.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[DCAllAfrican]

 

[1995]

These kinds of quotes/memes just make it seem like the only reason they stood against prejudice or injustice is so they can eventually get something in return

 

[fluid hips]

I always parse the Felicity Ace ship sinking with 4000 exotic cars as the reason both the Russian/Ukraine & the Israel/Gaza/Palestinian war happened.

4000 Exotic Cars? Powerful people’s toys…
The Wars started right after that, now segwaying into a Gaza war.

Coincidence or the favor of HUGE losses being returned?

A lot of those cars were VERY RARE.

Mostly Porsches and Audis. Not that rare

 

[fluid hips]

Local news was interviewing people that just went to Israel to fight for the IDF.

Thought it was illegal for US citizens to fight for another country's military

 

[elpablo21]

In what world are Jews standing alone? White supremacists are even standing with them right now .

This goofy *** woman made the Will Smith slap a tragedy about her. Better off ignoring her

 

[2163O1baller90]

The delusion is crazy

 

[LD7]

Israel wants the land and Hamas gave them a reason to strike.

They have the financial power already. All they need now is the land and they will be a force to be reckoned with in that region, possibly internationally.

I just don’t see how you claim to be the chosen people of God and react this way. Sure, men go to war, and they have a reason to do so, but after years of killing Palestinians and taking their land, this should be the point where the UN & other global leaders step in.

Telling the people to leave to avoid being bombed (and then bombing anyway) is inhumane. The people were leaving and the land would have been there’s without struggle, but they want blood.

To be able to move like this and get away with it.. while criticizing and canceling anyone who says anything about you is ridiculous. Then again, they are the synagogue.