Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

"Not evil"

The rest of her post is out of context and even mixed up.

The whole thing about Azerbaijan thing is weird because as a Zionist she should know Israel aids and arms Azerbajanis to ethnic cleanse against the Armenians there.

 

[me love nutella]

I will say I find many of the Zionist/pro Israeli sympathizers to have the same traits and talking points and thinking as the MAGA/QAnon crowd. Especially the ones on Twitter. It is because many of them are MAGA anyways.

 

[Dark Brandon]

War for 75 years and won't be solved because of religion and imaginary differences

When I found out there was such a thing as Palestinian Jews I got real confused, Problem is Americans hate history, reading it, thinking about it, considering it in any way at all. That is why so many people are clueless on this matter.

I was surprised at first, too. But it was pleasant news to read that Palestine is made up of decent amount of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic people.

 

[Dark Brandon]

I will say I find many of the Zionist/pro Israeli sympathizers to have the same traits and talking points and thinking as the MAGA/QAnon crowd. Especially the ones on Twitter. It is because many of them are MAGA anyways.

Same folks who were at Charlottesville screaming “Jews will not replace us!”…but they also hate Arabs. Weird.

 

[aepps20]

I've seen tons of Orthodox Jewish people standing against Israel. The media wants the narrative to be Israel = Represents all Jewish people and Palestine = Represents Hamas when neither of those is true. It's the same way the media portrays that Liberal = You support Antifa and Conservative = You support the Proud Boys

Sadly this is probably more true than not.

 

[Nike Jordan]

Conservative = You support the Proud Boys

No conservative has condemned the Proud Boys though.

 

[FlightNikes]

I always parse the Felicity Ace ship sinking with 4000 exotic cars as the reason both the Russian/Ukraine & the Israel/Gaza/Palestinian war happened.

4000 Exotic Cars? Powerful people’s toys…
The Wars started right after that, now segwaying into a Gaza war.

Coincidence or the favor of HUGE losses being returned?

A lot of those cars were VERY RARE.

 

[Coromanti]

Same folks who were at Charlottesville screaming “Jews will not replace us!”…but they also hate Arabs. Weird.

Arabs aren’t seen as holders of power in the same way. It’s a less than subtle nod to the “Jews run the world” conspiracy.

I was surprised at first, too. But it was pleasant news to read that Palestine is made up of decent amount of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic people.

IDK how factual this is but there is a belief that modern “Arab” Palestinians are descended from Jews and Samaritans who converted to Christianity and Islam at some point in history.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

 

[Coromanti]

Same myth the pro slavery politicians said about Black people in the west.

 

[sharpshooter718]

I think people really overrate the religion aspect.

like I think they could all be atheists and you'd get the same outcomes pretty much.

That's where you are wrong . This is all about religion...

 

[osh kosh bosh]

i feel for her, but I really wish that people would make arguments with goal of actually persuading people on the other side.

im not an expert but even with the amount of reading I've done, none these arguments even pass the sniff test from the israeli perspective.

Treating the idea " If Palestinians become free they would kill all the Israeli's. " as some kind of deranged fantasy, is obviously not compelling to any Israeli person.

The fact that Jewish people live on the westbank, so? This conflict is as much about regional and ethnic ties as it is religious.

plus the west bank is run by PLO a secular group as apposed to the islamist Hamas.
Is it really that crazy to think that if Hamas was allowed to move freely they wouldn't eventually defeat the PLO and unite Palestine under a explicitly islamist goverment

intent on destroying israel?
They would be well funded from the Arab states in the region that ALSO want israel irradicated. It's not crazy or hard to imagine. regardless of whats happening in clubs in the West Bank.


I would like to see peace but ultimately Israel has to be convinced since they have the power.
and making arguments that don't take into account the normal human perspectives on the other side.

I think is totally counter productive.

 

[me love nutella]

Arabs aren’t seen as holders of power in the same way. It’s a less than subtle nod to the “Jews run the world” conspiracy.


IDK how factual this is but there is a belief that modern “Arab” Palestinians are descended from Jews and Samaritans who converted to Christianity and Islam at some point in history.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand the whole ties between extremist Zionists and Evangelicals/white supremacist nationalists is the enemy of my enemy is my friend. It is based on power to uphold the white supremacy colonial system. They just have deeper connections politically because the religious extremist Christians believe in the interpreted Biblical prophecy of once Jews all return to the land, Jesus will come.

As for who are the Palestinians, they are mixed from different and diverse backgrounds. Some studies have traced them back to the Canaanites that also were original inhabitants of that land. Same with Jews in a sense where their blood got mixed too.

There are none of us who are pure as we all did crossover migration and some migrated elsewhere than their origin lands.

Also, I am not one to trust religious texts for origins of where people came from. But many Jews and Arabs use the basis of the tribes that were mentioned in the religious texts. Because some will say Arabs and Jews are cousins from the religious texts. But to me the religious texts are not credible.

 

[me love nutella]

i feel for her, but I really wish that people would make arguments with goal of actually persuading people on the other side.

im not an expert but even with the amount of reading I've done, none these arguments even pass the sniff test from the israeli perspective.

Treating the idea " If Palestinians become free they would kill all the Israeli's. " as some kind of deranged fantasy, is obviously not compelling to any Israeli person.

The fact that Jewish people live on the westbank, so? This conflict is as much about regional and ethnic ties as it is religious.

plus the west bank is run by PLO a secular group as apposed to the islamist Hamas.
Is it really that crazy to think that if Hamas was allowed to move freely they wouldn't eventually defeat the PLO and unite Palestine under a explicitly islamist goverment

intent on destroying israel?
They would be well funded from the Arab states in the region that ALSO want israel irradicated. It's not crazy or hard to imagine. regardless of whats happening in clubs in the West Bank.


I would like to see peace but ultimately Israel has to be convinced since they have the power.
and making arguments that don't take into account the normal human perspectives on the other side.

I think is totally counter productive.

The Palestinian vs. Israeli perspetives are complete opposites then because us Palestinians see a lot of projection from the Zionist/Israeli side.

No, I do not think Hamas would eradicate Jews and there would be Palestinian pushback to that for sure. There is a deep reverance and respect in Islamic culture about the Jews actually. I find Zionists really exaggerate the Islamists talk on Jews. Religiously, they cannot do that to eradicate because there are Palestinian Jews and a Jewish community indigenous and that always lived there for millennia with Arabs., and they have religious and ethnic ties to the land. They mean more of the Jews that they see as "settlers" and "colonizers" that came come Europe and Middle East to establish Israel at the expense of their expulsion and took their lands.

The beef regards when it comes to nationhood in their lands, not because they are Jews and their religions. Of course, there are antisemites, but RELIGIOUSLY and in the Qur'an, they better put respect on Jews and they are upheld and honored as the originals of the Abrahamic faiths. Muslims see Islam as a continuation of Judaism. The Arabs just believe Jews to live side by side with them, but not in the interpretation about getting a nation-state. That's why the Palestinian movement is hand in hand with anti-Zionist Jews.

It is also Palestinians that see they are the ones being eradicated. It is also actualized and reality. They feel, think, and know, that Israel's existense is at the expense of erasure and denial of their statehood, sovereignty, and self-determination.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

No, I do not think Hamas would eradicate Jews and there would be Palestinian pushback to that for sure. There is a deep reverance and respect in Islamic culture about the Jews actually. I find Zionists really exaggerate the Islamists talk on Jews. Religiously, they cannot do that to eradicate because there are Palestinian Jews and a Jewish community indigenous and that always lived there for millennia with Arabs., and they have religious and ethnic ties to the land.

my guy Hamas BBQ'd some babies, YOU may think that. and that's fine
but it is not unreasonable for Israeli's to think that the baby decapitors don't have that much respect for Israeli people.

The destruction Israeli is in Hamas's founding documents if im not mistaken.
so like I get it if you trust they will be super nice to Israeli's but I totally get why Israeli's don't.

it's not like a more extreme Islamists taking over a formerly secular and libral arab country is some super rare thing that has never happened before.

The beef regards when it comes to nationhood in their lands, not because they are Jews and their religions. Of course, there are antisemites, but RELIGIOUSLY and in the Qur'an, they better put respect on Jews and they are upheld and honored as the originals of the Abrahamic faiths. Muslims see Islam as a continuation of Judaism. The Arabs just believe Jews to live side by side with them, but not in the interpretation about getting a nation-state. That's why the Palestinian movement is hand in hand with anti-Zionist Jews.

all of this sounds nice, but totally unbelievable if you are an Israeli.
You see a millennia of ethnic conflict between Sunni and Shias Muslims but the one thing they seem to agree on is supporting Terrorist orgs to destroy israel.

but Israel's are supposed to take it on faith that everyone will be nice to them in a Arab controlled israel?

based on the fact they were nice to them a millennia ago? cmon man.
no group of people would be convinced by that.

It is also Palestinians that see they are the ones being eradicated. It is also actualized and reality. They feel, think, and know, that Israel's existense is at the expense of erasure and denial of their statehood, sovereignty, and self-determination.

Sure yes, that's why I say that ultimately Israel is the one that has to be convinced.

and you don't do anyone any favours when you make arguments that aren't even semi plausible to anyone who doesn't already agree.

They aren't leaving, they have enough money and weapons to do this for the rest of time,
If they are going to stop it's because they decide to stop. and so any argument has to take into account their perspective.

no amount of calling them settlers or colonialist is going to make people just up and change their minds.

 

[IATT]

 

[me love nutella]

my guy Hamas BBQ'd some babies, YOU may think that. and that's fine
but it is not unreasonable for Israeli's to think that the baby decapitors don't have that much respect for Israeli people.

The destruction Israeli is in Hamas's founding documents if im not mistaken.
so like I get it if you trust they will be super nice to Israeli's but I totally get why Israeli's don't.

it's not like a more extreme Islamists taking over a formerly secular and libral arab country is some super rare thing that has never happened before.



all of this sounds nice, but totally unbelievable if you are an Israeli.
You see a millennia of ethnic conflict between Sunni and Shias Muslims but the one thing they seem to agree on is supporting Terrorist orgs to destroy israel.

but Israel's are supposed to take it on faith that everyone will be nice to them in a Arab controlled israel?

based on the fact they were nice to them a millennia ago? cmon man.
no group of people would be convinced by that.


Sure yes, that's why I say that ultimately Israel is the one that has to be convinced.

and you don't do anyone any favours when you make arguments that aren't even semi plausible to anyone who doesn't already agree.

They aren't leaving, they have enough money and weapons to do this for the rest of time,
If they are going to stop it's because they decide to stop. and so any argument has to take into account their perspective.

no amount of calling them settlers or colonialist is going to make people just up and change their minds.

I would not agree to Hamas governing Palestinian statehood, but that's not my decision. I am for a secular ONE state solution, by the way. In addition, Hamas charter in 2017 changed to accepting 1967 borders. Also, you keep mentioning Hamas' barbaric tactics as if Israel hasn't been blowing up and burning Palestinian babies since 1948. There is no equivalency here. Israel's barbarism and violence is much more extreme and deadlier as it is done on a systemic level via spectrum to continue their persecution, ethnic cleansing, occupation and genocide of Palestinians.

It is more that Israel wants to ensure as well there is no Palestinian statehood. Why do they keep violating international law and expanding illegal settlements in the West Bank? The current Israeli government is one of the most far right religious extremist in history that was voted in on the premise Netanyahu said that he will dim any hope for Palestinian statehood. It is known and they have been very vocal about completely taking over the West Bank and taking over East Jerusalem. They want all of Jerusalem to become Jewish, and under Israel as their sovereign state. That is why Republicans have been working with Netanyahu to put relocate the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem as the goal is to make it the capital of Israel.

Palestinians will be free and eventually get statehood because Israel as it exists now is not sustainable. The Palestinian demographic problem will make Israel as a majority Jewish run country obselete eventually. That is why they are also becoming more hardcore in their expansion of Greater Israel. The whole premise of nationhood to a people based on a religion to establish an ethno-state never worked. How's that been going? I do not know what will happen, but Palestinians will get their statehood one way or another.

 

[DripNick]

Really "not evil"

 

[me love nutella]

Also, I want to add that most Arab countries were secular run governments until the rise of Ayatollah Khameini that overtake Iran and overthrew the Western-backed monarchy of the Shah in 1979. That is when then religious extremist fundamentalism became MORE popular as an ideology to counter the secular-backed corrupt Arab governments, in which some were propped and supported by the West.

Also, the West should not think they are morally superior to other governments in the world. They are the dominant colonial powers and still abide by to Christian conditioned thinking and colonial mindset. They also oppress minorities in their own countries and go off killing others in other countries for their own selfish regional interests.

Some of you think all Muslims and Arabs are a monolith and lack insight into their cultures and political and economic histories.

 

[gry60]

Why we shouldn't discount the role of the Bush administration in the current stage:

Clueless in Gaza

George W. Bush's started a secret war on Hamas. Is Obama continuing it?

newrepublic.com

But if the political effects of Hamas' ousting of Fatah are clear enough, Washington's prevailing narrative about it has mostly been self-serving. In a new book, Tested by Zion, Elliott Abrams, who supervised American policy in the Middle East for George W. Bush’s National Security Council, offers the standard line, charging that Hamas staged a “coup” in Gaza because it feared that “time might bring greater strength for what Hamas saw as Fatah and we saw as the legitimate PA national security forces.” Abrams acknowledges that Hamas leaders might have believed there was “a conspiracy to crush it,” but dismisses the possibility that there actually was one, and that the United States might have played any role in it.
This account is in marked contrast with the testimony put forth independently by two journalists, Paul McGeough and David Rose, by a former British intelligence official, Alistair Crooke, who had served as a special advisor on the Middle East to the European Union, and by UN Under-Secretary General Alvaro de Soto. Key parts of the this alternative narrative have been confirmed by leaked government documents and contemporary newspaper accounts and by David Wurmser, who was Middle East advisor at the time to Vice President **** Cheney.

This version of events is considerably more damning about Washington's role in the events leading up to the Hamas “coup”. According to the alternative narrative, the Bush administration blundered at every turn in its dealings with the Palestinians. It encouraged an election on the assumption that Abbas and Fatah would win. When Hamas was victorious, it sought to nullify the results and to block a unity government between Fatah and Hamas, even though such a government might have actually become a credible partner in peace negotiations. And the Bush administration helped arm Fatah’s security forces against Hamas, which stoked the civil war and led to Hamas taking over Gaza. According to this narrative, Hamas was basically right about American intentions.

The story begins in June 2002, when Bush in a White House speech pressed for the Palestinians to “to elect new leaders” and “build a practicing democracy.” Bush was initially determined to promote an alternative to Yasir Arafat, but after Arafat died, he continued to urge elections as part of the administration’s plan to build Arab democracies. In February 2005, Mahmoud Abbas won an election to succeed Arafat as president of the Palestinian Authority, and at Bush’s urging, agreed to hold elections for a legislative council, which were scheduled for August and then postponed until January 2006. Israel was worried about Hamas’s participation, but in a meeting with Abbas in Washington in October, Bush, who was confident that Fatah would win the elections, did not raise the possibility of banning Hamas candidates.

Hamas, of course, won 74 out of 132 seats. Fatah candidates won a majority of the vote, but lost seats because the party could not agree on a single candidate and split their own vote. Earlier, to sideline Arafat, the American government had pressured the Palestinian Authority to shift power from the president’s office to the prime minister’s, and now Hamas was entitled to the prime ministership and to control of the country’s finances and security. In effect, the election result had sidelined Abbas and Fatah and put Hamas in charge of the country.

According to a mission report from de Soto, who was the U.N. representative to the Middle East Quartet, Abbas and the Hamas officials wanted to create a unity government of the two parties. Abbas was convinced that Hamas, which had not campaigned against a two-state solution, would allow him to pursue negotiations with Israel. And de Soto and the UN wanted the Quartet wanted to open a “channel of dialogue” with Hamas. Like Abbas, they believed that Hamas’s decision to participate in elections indicated a willingness to lay aside their opposition to the peace process.

But despite having pushed for the election, Washington would not legitimate its results.

BTW, the EU did recognize that the elections were fair.

In the wake of the election, the United States, together with Israel, pressed for the international community, including the U.N., to cut off aid to a Hamas government unless it agreed to recognize Israel, abide by previous treaties and renounce violence and terror. The Bush administration couldn’t get the U.N. to cut funding, but they did eventually convince the Quartet to cut aid to the Palestinian Authority. The U.S. also approved Israel’s decision to deny the Palestinians the tax revenues (through a VAT on their imports and exports) that they collected on their behalf. (Israel was now levying a tax on Palestinians for participating in the election.) And the U.S. repeatedly urged Abbas not to conciliate Hamas. Abbas didn’t dissolve the government, as the U.S. wished, but he restored the Arafat-era power of the Presidency over security, finance, and patronage. Abbas’s moves may have pleased Washington, but they were predictably provocative to Hamas and helped fuel armed clashes in Gaza.

Israel and the United States believed that by depriving the PA of the funds it needed to pay workers and dispense welfare, it could bring down the government. Abbas would call new elections and this time Fatah would win. But Israel and America’s strategy backfired. By denying the PA funds, it initially crippled Abbas and Fatah’s patronage base and security force. Hamas, meanwhile, whose sources of funding in the United States were drying up because of federal prosecution, turned to Iran for support, and Iran’s funding allowed Hamas to pay its fighters and to maintain its own system of clinics and schools. Hamas retained its political support, while Fatah continued to lose ground.

On the same day, Jones sent another cable describing a conversation he had the previous day with Military-Intelligence Chief Amos Yadlin. The Israeli Defense Forces had earlier been eager to help Fatah against Hamas, but when Jones spoke to Yadlin on the eve of Hamas’s takeover, Yadlin said he was actually “happy” with the prospect that Hamas would gain control of Gaza. He thought that Israel could then treat Gaza as a “hostile territory.” And several weeks after Hamas’s takeover in Gaza and Abbas’s ouster of Hamas officials from the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah, Israel’s cabinet did declare Gaza a “hostile territory.” And in a 2010 article, Ha’aretz revealed that during Operation Cast Lead in December 2008, Israel’s Defense Minister asked Fatah’s leadership whether it wanted to take back control of Gaza after Israel had ousted Hamas. That operation ended badly, of course, for Israel and its government.

If the alternative narrative to Abrams’ is plausible, and I believe it is, what are the lessons to be drawn? The first, and most obvious, is that the Bush administration was utterly incompetent at foreign policy. That clearly goes for Bush’s second as well as his first term. And in the case of its policy toward Israel and the Palestinians, it is not just Abrams and the White House that is to blame, but the State Department under Condoleezza Rice. Nothing they did—from urging elections on the Palestinian Authority to attempting to oust Hamas from the PA—achieved what they hoped. They were constantly being upended by events that they had not foreseen—from Hamas’s victory in January 2006 to the Saudi’s Mecca agreement in February 2007 to the Hamas takeover in June 2007.

The second, having to do with American policy toward Hamas, is more complicated and controversial. In the 1990s, the Clinton administration had good reason to try to isolate and sanction Hamas, which was using suicide bombers to undermine the Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO. But by 2006, the situation had changed. Oslo was, to all intents and purposes, dead. Fatah and Abbas were unpopular, and in participating in the 2006 elections, and in occasional statements, Hamas had shown some willingness to let the PLO negotiate with the Israelis and to a long-term “hundna” or ceasefire with Israel. The Bush administration had at its disposal all kinds of circuitous means of dealing with Hamas without directly recognizing a an organization that the State Department had designated as “terrorist.” For one thing, as de Soto suggested, it could have acted through the Quartet.

Instead, the administration joined the Israelis in doing everything it could not only to isolate but to defeat and destroy Hamas, even though Hamas had won elections that the Bush administration had urged. At this point, the administration’s strategy recalled earlier failed attempts of American administration to deny the existence of regimes and movements of which it did not approve. By refusing to deal with, or attempting to destroy, movements or governments that have genuine popular support, and that were not at war with the United States, the United States has almost invariably strengthened those movements and governments, and in some cases, removed the possibility that they could have been brought around. There is no question that the American and Israeli strategy against Hamas strengthened that movement, deepened its support, and also hardened its ties to a country, Iran, that both the US and Israel see as hostile.

They would be well funded from the Arab states in the region that ALSO want israel irradicated. It's not crazy or hard to imagine. regardless of whats happening in clubs in the West Bank.

I don't think this is accurate.

Arab countries already have significant Palestinian populations, some of it being the result of this event. The last thing they want is creating a situation that would result in a second mass exodus. That's to say, most, if not all Arab countries support a two-state solution.

Saudi Arabia is looking for a defense pact with the US (hence the attempt to normalize ties with Israel); SA and Israel also share a common enemy in Iran.

UAE and Bahrain have already normalized ties with Israel.

Egypt is getting military assistance from the US in exchange for keeping the Suez canal open for trade, which includes daily transfer of millions of oil barrels).

Turkey is in NATO, so they're not funding terror groups anytime soon.

Only Iran benefits from funding Hamas, but

Spoiler

they're Persian

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[htg designs]

Saw this an thought it was interesting.
Map of Arab world:

 

[ahat]

Saw this an thought it was interesting.
Map of Arab world:

*Map of Arabic speaking countries

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I would not agree to Hamas governing Palestinian statehood, but that's not my decision. I am for a secular ONE state solution, by the way. In addition, Hamas charter in 2017 changed to accepting 1967 borders. Also, you keep mentioning Hamas' barbaric tactics as if Israel hasn't been blowing up and burning Palestinian babies since 1948. There is no equivalency here. Israel's barbarism and violence is much more extreme and deadlier as it is done on a systemic level via spectrum to continue their persecution, ethnic cleansing, occupation and genocide of Palestinians.

I mention Hamas tactics, not to paint one side as barbaric and one side as not. I don't care about measuring barbarism on either.

I mention it ONLY because it's relevant to the Israeli mindset.

Obviously Israeli's person in the wake of terror attacks is goings to view there defense forces as justified and the outgroup terrorist as not justified.
You sit hear and say to your blue in the face that Israel is worse. and Israeli person is never going to take that view, especially in the wake of spectacular audacious terror attacks.

Israel has the power, they are the ones who need to be convinced, and im sorry Baby broiling is not going to do it. regardless of who YOU think is better or worse.

It is more that Israel wants to ensure as well there is no Palestinian statehood. Why do they keep violating international law and expanding illegal settlements in the West Bank? The current Israeli government is one of the most far right religious extremist in history that was voted in on the premise Netanyahu said that he will dim any hope for Palestinian statehood. It is known and they have been very vocal about completely taking over the West Bank and taking over East Jerusalem. They want all of Jerusalem to become Jewish, and under Israel as their sovereign state. That is why Republicans have been working with Netanyahu to put relocate the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem as the goal is to make it the capital of Israel.

Well yes of course, this is what makes the problem intractable.

Palestine's rightly feel oppressed, terorrists lash out
Which leads to Israeli's feeling unsafe, and electing right wing governments.

Both Hamas and the Israeli right wing both use each others escalations to get power
which justifies further escalations, which leads to more power
which leads to more escalations.

that's why the problem is difficult.

Palestinians will be free and eventually get statehood because Israel as it exists now is not sustainable. The Palestinian demographic problem will make Israel as a majority Jewish run country obselete eventually. That is why they are also becoming more hardcore in their expansion of Greater Israel. The whole premise of nationhood to a people based on a religion to establish an ethno-state never worked. How's that been going? I do not know what will happen, but Palestinians will get their statehood one way or another.

yah I think are fooling yourself, given the treatment of Jews historically across the globe,
understandably I don't think they will ever give up the idea of an ethnically Jewish state.

I think with a lot of guns and bombs you can't keep this sorry state of affairs going for a long time. and don't underestimate the risk of things getting worse.

Radicalization can work in both directions.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Why we shouldn't discount the role of the Bush administration in the current stage:

Clueless in Gaza

George W. Bush's started a secret war on Hamas. Is Obama continuing it?

newrepublic.com

BTW, the EU did recognize that the elections were fair.












I don't think this is accurate.

Arab countries already have significant Palestinian populations, some of it being the result of this event. The last thing they want is creating a situation that would result in a second mass exodus. That's to say, most, if not all Arab countries support a two-state solution.

Saudi Arabia is looking for a defense pact with the US (hence the attempt to normalize ties with Israel); SA and Israel also share a common enemy in Iran.

UAE and Bahrain have already normalized ties with Israel.

Egypt is getting military assistance from the US in exchange for keeping the Suez canal open for trade, which includes daily transfer of millions of oil barrels).

Turkey is in NATO, so they're not funding terror groups anytime soon.

Only Iran benefits from funding Hamas, but

Spoiler

they're Persian

to be clear I don't mean all arab states want isreal gone.
Im saying Hamas will be funded by the ones that do.
if Israel disappeared you don't think PLO and Hamas would be in a war for control?

the point ultimately is whatever you think, it's certainly not unreasonable for Jews to fear subjection...it's kinda like there whole thing for like millennia.