Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[moderndarwin]

i know nothing of this conflict so just recently read up on it.

Find it interesting that Israel is basically the size of New Jersey and has only a population of about 10 million people (of which 20% are Muslim).

And that there are about 2 billion Muslims worldwide and only 15M Jews worldwide.

I guess i understand their perspective a bit more as a complete outsider to this conflict. They have nowhere else that’s their spot. Unfortunately it’s in the middle of the Arab and Muslim world and most of that world absolutely hates them.

Through their history and their geographic location they’ve made military intelligence priority 1 of the country the past few decades and they are the de facto Tony Stark of the world having an insane amount of exports for such a tiny country.

The whole right wing nut job leader of theirs makes a lot more sense to me now…cuz I just imagine the people living there are acutely aware of all the above and want safety and security more than anything else even at the expense of any moral guardrails around “acceptable” rebuttals of an attack. I mean it’s only been 30 years since they had scud missiles fired from a neighboring country at Tel Aviv.

As US people our country is in a constant state of safety and security uproar around immigrants coming here and mostly peacefully working here at jobs we don’t want. We even elected a nut job in Trump off those fears. I say that to mean i’m actually amazed it hasn’t popped off more in their country than what has happened.

My net takeaway is wow nothing is ever gonna get resolved here. This is the literal proverbial rock and a hard place.

 

[gry60]

Israelis have grown more skeptical of a two-state solution

Only 35% of Israelis believe that Israel and an independent Palestine can coexist peacefully, down from 44% in 2017.

www.pewresearch.org

The feeling that peaceful coexistence is possible has decreased over the past decade among both Arabs and Jews living in Israel.


Still, views among Arab Israelis have shifted significantly more than they have among Jewish Israelis. Arab Israelis are now 33 points less likely than they were in 2013 to see the possibility of a peaceful coexistence between Israel and an independent Palestinian state. Jewish Israelis are 14 points less likely to see this possibility than in 2013.


Among the major subgroups of Jews in Israel, those who are Masorti (“traditional”) and those who are Haredi/Dati (“ultra-Orthodox” and “religious,” respectively) have grown less confident in recent years that peaceful coexistence is possible. The share of Masorti Jews who see the possibility of a peaceful coexistence has declined from 33% in 2017 to 17% this year. Among Haredi/Dati Jews, the share who see this possibility has fallen from 22% to 7%. (Because of small sample sizes, we combined Haredim and Datiim in this analysis.)


By contrast, Hiloni or “secular” Jews now express more optimism about the prospects for a two-state solution than they did in 2017 (61% today vs. 54% then).


The views of Israelis on the political left and in the center have not changed substantially since 2017. But those on the political right are considerably less likely than they were in 2017 to see the possibility of a peaceful coexistence between Israel and a Palestinian state (14% today vs. 27% in 2017).

Is the two-state solution for Israel, Palestine dead? Maybe. But what's the alternative?

The U.S. is so far empty-handed in dealing with Israel's radical government and dysfunctional Palestinian leadership.

www.latimes.com

Some in the new, far-right Israeli government — the most extreme and religiously conservative in the nation’s history — want to see the collapse of the Palestinian Authority, expulsion of many Palestinians and confiscation of most West Bank land, where the Palestinian state would have been created.

Many Palestinians see their government as weak and useless — President Mahmoud Abbas has overstayed his term by a decade and refused to hold elections — and have watched as Jewish settlers have expanded their occupation. The heavily guarded settlements have effectively made the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state impossible.

One oft-mentioned option is a single state of Israelis and Palestinians with equal rights. Some polling of Palestinians has shown growing support for the arrangement.

But the prospects for that happening are perhaps even dimmer than for the two-state solution. What would such a state be called? Who would be in charge of security?

It would be neither Israeli nor Palestinian and wouldn’t satisfy the nationalist aspirations of either side. And because of higher birth rates among Palestinians, Israeli Jews might be a minority in such a state.

“Once you have equal rights, it’s not a Jewish state anymore,” said Indyk, now a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. “What Israeli prime minister is going to hand the keys over to the Palestinians?

One of the issues that galvanized Israeli protests against Bibi's government was the Haredi exemption:

The Haredi Exemption - Israel Policy Forum

Through an arrangement established during the founding of the state, Haredi men have enjoyed a de facto exemption from the mandatory IDF or non-military service requirement that legally applies to all Jewish Israeli citizens. Benjamin Netanyahu’s sixth government has taken up the task of...

israelpolicyforum.org

For decades, the Haredi community’s de facto exemption from the military conscription to which the rest of Jewish Israeli society is subject has been one of the most divisive issues in Israeli politics. As Israel’s far-right and Haredi government takes steps viewed by much of Israel’s non-Haredi public as eroding the country’s democratic character, most notably the judicial overhaul, granting the Haredim an unambiguous, legislated exemption from military conscription is likely to exacerbate non-Haredi Israelis’ outrage and existential fear for the future of the country. After months of headlines about Haredi parties calling for controversial religion-and-state measures, ranging from perennial contentious issues like the curricular independence of the Haredi education systems and preventing public transportation on Shabbat to more bizarre ones like banning electricity production on Shabbat and implementing criminal penalties for women who read Torah at the Kotel, mainstream Jewish Israelis are unlikely to stay quiet if this government moves forward with permanently exempting Haredim from the draft. Likewise, a Basic Law recognizing Haredi Torah study as a national priority is all but certain to engender significant public opposition.

 

[DripNick]

Probably "not evil"

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Not exactly and organization that seems concerned with Palestinian freedom.

 

[ahat]

Not exactly and organization that seems concerned with Palestinian freedom.

They are telling Palestinians not to leave because if they do they can't come back. Israel is going to kill them either way. It is a lose-lose situation for them.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

They are telling Palestinians not to leave because if they do they can't come back. Israel is going to kill them either way. It is a lose-lose situation for them.

Yah that's stupid, I think if I was a Palestinian I would like the option to choose.

Rather than take the word of the terrorists force that wants this conflict to go on forever.

 

[ahat]

Yah that's stupid, I think if I was a Palestinian I would like the option to choose.

Rather than take the word of the terrorists force that wants this conflict to go on forever.

They are fleeing. Not sure what you're talking about

Either way, Israel is going to bomb them.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

They are fleeing. Not sure what you're talking about

Either way, Israel is going to bomb them.

I'm talking about fleeing to Egypt out of the country where Israel won't bomb.

 

[ahat]

I'm talking about fleeing to Egypt out of the country where Israel won't bomb.

Egypt closed their border

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Egypt closed their border

Well yah that's the point of my initial post.

 

[jewseejay]

They're bombing civilian convoys of women and children whilst trying to leave

 

[fluid hips]

Egypt is only opening their border if Isreal allows food, oil, electricity etc into Gaza

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Egypt is only opening their border if Isreal allows food, oil, electricity etc into Gaza

I don't know why you would belive any of that.

they've been pretty against letting any signifact numbers Gazan's into Egypt for a while now.
so im not sure why you'd belive them now.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

people who should know better stay making arguments that aren't even semi plausible.

you are going to say with a straight face toe a Jewish person, Jews never been oppressed in EGYPT wut.

 

[ballinsam23]

You’re allowed to join the IDF if you’re a dual citizen. Many Israelis that live in America are dual citizens.

Theres literally a rebuttal from both sides about every single argument.

Egyptians not taking Palestinian refugees has nothing to do with Israel. There is history there, Egypt isn’t the only country that can offer a safe passage for Palestinian refugees. No Arab country is opening their doors, till this day I don’t know why Arab countries don’t help their own.

 

[pmatic]

 

[ballinsam23]

Good to see the US was able to persuade Egypt to reopen the border.

Rafah crossing will be open, US secretary of state says after meeting with Egypt's president​

From CNN’s Abby Baggini


US Secretary of State Antony Blinken promised Sunday that the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt "will be open" after meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi.

"Rafah will be open," he said. "We're putting in place with the UN, with Egypt, Israel, with others, the mechanism by which to get the assistance in and to get it to people who need it."

Israel has closed its two border crossings with Gaza and imposed a “complete siege” on the territory, blocking supplies of fuel, electricity and water. That has left the Rafah crossing as the only viable outlet to get people out of the enclave — and supplies into it.

Aid efforts: Blinken also announced President Joe Biden's appointment of David Satterfield, former US ambassador to Turkey, to help coordinate aid efforts. Blinken said Satterfield will be in Israel on Monday to begin coordinating.

Blinken, who has met with various regional leaders including those of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, said he had "very good conversations" with both el-Sisi and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

He added every nation he spoke with shared the administration's goal of preventing an escalation and securing aid to civilians stuck in Gaza.
US support for Israel: Blinken said while the US supports Israel's right to defend itself, he hopes Israel responds "in a way that affirms the shared values that we have for human life and human dignity."

"The way that Israel does this matters. It needs to do it in a way that affirms the shared values that we have for human life and human dignity, taking every possible precaution to avoid harming civilians," he said. "Civilians should not have to suffer for Hamas' atrocities."

Asked if the US would come to Israel's defense in the event of an escalation, Blinken said, "I don't think we could be more clear than we've been, that when it comes to Israel's security, we have Israel's back."

He added, "We will stand with it today, tomorrow, and every day."

Military presence in the Middle East: Blinken assured US strike groups mobilized in the region are not intended "to provoke anyone, but to send a very clear message of deterrence, that no one should do anything that widens this conflict in any way, or that furthers aggression against Israel from any other direction."

"No one should do anything that could add fuel to the fire in any other place. I think that's very clear," he added.

 

[gry60]

Yah that's stupid, I think if I was a Palestinian I would like the option to choose.

Rather than take the word of the terrorists force that wants this conflict to go on forever.

The pursuit of "the right of return" is the result of 700k Palestinians being removed from their land in the 1940s.

It is entirely plausible that the current Israeli government has no plan to allow the return of fleeing Palestinians. Just like Israel deserves assurances that Palestinian representatives don't want to exterminate them, Palestinians deserve assurances that they will be able to go home after Hamas is dealt with.

That's where the international community is failing them.

 

[gry60]

You’re allowed to join the IDF if you’re a dual citizen. Many Israelis that live in America are dual citizens.

But if you're an American, the only way this may cause you few problems is if you were born here. It gets tricky if you were naturalized.

There are many jobs here where your allegiance is taken into account, and having fought for a foreign military (regardless of that country's alignment with the US) will raise red flags.

 

[ballinsam23]

But if you're an American, the only way this may cause you few problems is if you were born here. It gets tricky if you were naturalized.

The ones I knew (very few) who went back to fight now, were all born here but moved and lived there long enough to get citizenship.

Or they already completed their IDF service and moved back here.

 

[gry60]

The ones I knew (very few) who went back to fight now, were all born here but moved and lived there long enough to get citizenship.

Or they already completed their IDF service and moved back here.

You misunderstood.

It may not be a problem for the Israeli government, but it is for the US government. It won't affect those who don't plan to live here, if in the event they move back stateside, it may be an issue depending on what they plan to do in the US.

Same goes for Americans who went to fight in Ukraine.

 

[ballinsam23]

You misunderstood.

It may not be a problem for the Israeli government, but it is for the US government. It won't affect those who don't plan to live here, if in the event they move back stateside, it may be an issue depending on what they plan to do in the US.

Same goes for Americans who went to fight in Ukraine.

I dont think it matters if you're a dual citizen. Not sure how many (if any) of the Americans who went to Ukraine, also had a Ukraine citizenship.

 

[me love nutella]

Yah that's stupid, I think if I was a Palestinian I would like the option to choose.

Rather than take the word of the terrorists force that wants this conflict to go on forever.

it's not stupid because this is a trap.

The caravans and convoys of Gazans leaving are being targeted and killed. As mentioned, they'll also be in permanent exile.

I have seen Gazans refuse to leave. I have also heard of Israelis in kibbutz refusing to leave and evacuate as well.

 

[me love nutella]

Also I want to add some of you are not thinking about strategy here.

If Egypt's Sisi gives the green light to take in Gazans into the Sinai, Israel and the U.S. will win easy. They take over Gaza, no Gazan left to support Hamas or another resistance and they're not allowed back.

They take Gaza and build the port for trade and there's slowly untapped oil reserves. But a big factor is no more enemies on the coast of Israel by pushing them more out.

So watch for Egypt's Sisi and how he will move, that'll be a game changer.

 

[biggie62]

Probably "not evil"

But ignore the 300k plus Ukrainian children which were taken by the Russians illegal? Of course you are.