Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[Coromanti]

Gotta listen when people talk. Religious zionists are dogmatic and determined. They don’t care if it will take 200 years. Parts of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt are on the chopping block. Just a matter of when. We didn’t listen 20 years ago when they said the two state solution was dead. Look where we are now.

It seems obvious that people, regardless of ethnicity or religion simply don’t like to think about bad things. And assume because something is a large endeavor the people actively attempting it won’t continue to do so. They were able to grow the settlements and imprison Gaza because nobody intervened because nobody thought they could or that they would. Well here they are doing what they said they would do.

Secular Jews are demographically on the way out and their numbers are only stable because of immigrants. Religious Zionist’s still make Aliyah in larger numbers and when they settle down have more kids. Ultra Orthodox don’t make Aliyah as often but the ones who already have make way more babies than any other group. This is why their politics has trended rightward over time.

This won’t end until either Israel is put in its place or the Religious Zionists get what they want.

 

[gry60]

Interesting reading about the narrative that the UK gave Palestine to Israel (or, who did Israel win their independence from?)

The British Army in Palestine | National Army Museum

In the 1940s, the British Army found itself stuck in the middle of a growing conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. The momentous events that followed led to the creation of the State of Israel.

www.nam.ac.uk

They were able to grow the settlements and imprison Gaza because nobody intervened because nobody thought they could or that they would.

I don't think this is accurate. The countries that could restrain the Israeli extreme right simply didn't care to do so. As long as somebody can guarantee access to resources and the security of trade routes, the US and the EU don't care about the internal politics of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Israel (unless these political events happen to disturb the stability of their own societies). Netanyahu never changed his tune on the question of Palestinian statehood. All the parties who participated in the last serious peace talks knew the danger of letting the fanatics (Bibi, Sharon) gain control of Israel.

That's why I criticize Arafat and Abbas for rejecting the peace proposals that the Israeli PMs who were serious about talking to Palestinians offered. There's a lot of **** Israel wouldn't have been able to do to Palestine if it was officially recognized as a nation: settlers refusing to leave illegal settlements would have been subjected to Palestinian law; the IDF wouldn't have been anywhere inside the West Bank; they wouldn't have been blockading the Mediterranean waters of Gaza, and they wouldn't have impeded the free movement of Palestinians and international trade.

Secular Jews are demographically on the way out and their numbers are only stable because of immigrants. Religious Zionist’s still make Aliyah in larger numbers and when they settle down have more kids. Ultra Orthodox don’t make Aliyah as often but the ones who already have make way more babies than any other group. This is why their politics has trended rightward over time.

Orthodox Jews are temporarily exempted from service if they go to religious school, but after a certain age, they are permanently exempt. Taking over the Israeli Supreme Court was make this exemption permanent without the hurdle of time spent in religious studies.

This means that most of the toll of Israeli security falls onto secular/non-orthodox Israelis. That's part of why their military officers were out there protesting before the attacks.

Most Israelis see the Hamas attack as a failure of the right-wing government; according to the latest polls, less than 20% of Israelis want to see Netanyahu in power after the war (which may very well imply that there won't be a stop to the war).

 

[Coromanti]

Interesting reading about the narrative that the UK gave Palestine to Israel (or, who did Israel win their independence from?)

The British Army in Palestine | National Army Museum

In the 1940s, the British Army found itself stuck in the middle of a growing conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. The momentous events that followed led to the creation of the State of Israel.

www.nam.ac.uk

I don't think this is accurate. The countries that could restrain the Israeli extreme right simply didn't care to do so. As long as somebody can guarantee access to resources and the security of trade routes, the US and the EU don't care about the internal politics of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Israel (unless these political events happen to disturb the stability of their own societies). Netanyahu never changed his tune on the question of Palestinian statehood. All the parties who participated in the last serious peace talks knew the danger of letting the fanatics (Bibi, Sharon) gain control of Israel.

That's why I criticize Arafat and Abbas for rejecting the peace proposals that the Israeli PMs who were serious about talking to Palestinians offered. There's a lot of **** Israel wouldn't have been able to do to Palestine if it was officially recognized as a nation: settlers refusing to leave illegal settlements would have been subjected to Palestinian law; the IDF wouldn't have been anywhere inside the West Bank; they wouldn't have been blockading the Mediterranean waters of Gaza, and they wouldn't have impeded the free movement of Palestinians and international trade.


Orthodox Jews are temporarily exempted from service if they go to religious school, but after a certain age, they are permanently exempt. Taking over the Israeli Supreme Court was make this exemption permanent without the hurdle of time spent in religious studies.

This means that most of the toll of Israeli security falls onto secular/non-orthodox Israelis. That's part of why their military officers were out there protesting before the attacks.

Most Israelis see the Hamas attack as a failure of the right-wing government; according to the latest polls, less than 20% of Israelis want to see Netanyahu in power after the war (which may very well imply that there won't be a stop to the war).

I knew the general public weren’t happy with Netanyahu but it doesn’t mean a swing back towards the center or left. There are some who think Bibi is not going far enough and he is losing their power to restrain them with such a massive blunder.

Seems the tide is turning on Haredi military service as well. It’s early days but I think this trend will continue. A few years ago Vice made a doc on a unit specifically set up for ultraorthodox. So it’s been trending this way for a while now. https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2023/11/01/israel-hamas-haredi-idf/#

 

[me love nutella]

That's why I criticize Arafat and Abbas for rejecting the peace proposals that the Israeli PMs who were serious about talking to Palestinians offered. There's a lot of **** Israel wouldn't have been able to do to Palestine if it was officially recognized as a nation: settlers refusing to leave illegal settlements would have been subjected to Palestinian law; the IDF wouldn't have been anywhere inside the West Bank; they wouldn't have been blockading the Mediterranean waters of Gaza, and they wouldn't have impeded the free movement of Palestinians and international trade.

I am curious on what you think was beneficial in each of those proposals as Palestinians say none offered any guarantees of a viable independent functional sovereign Palestinian statehood.

We do know during some of the offer and negotiations of these proposals the amount of Israeli settlement construction skyrocketed. Even the “dove” Rabin never agreed to the establishment of a Palestinian state, but a “state-minus” with no real sovereignty. Like virtually all Israeli talking points, reality and history paint an entirely different picture than the one offered.

 

[me love nutella]

I knew the general public weren’t happy with Netanyahu but it doesn’t mean a swing back towards the center or left. There are some who think Bibi is not going far enough and he is losing their power to restrain them with such a massive blunder.

Seems the tide is turning on Haredi military service as well. It’s early days but I think this trend will continue. A few years ago Vice made a doc on a unit specifically set up for ultraorthodox. So it’s been trending this way for a while now. https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2023/11/01/israel-hamas-haredi-idf/#

Thanks for your insights.

So basically you're saying that they is more of a far right shift even among the Israeli population such as the same phenomenon we say that took place with the neo-con Republicans and their supporters who went much more far right, that seems to be the dominant political values and ideology.

As in, it could be a minority of those sorts but they are very vocal and have power and support behind them?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

phrases like "moral panic" are so overused.

the people with the guns and the bombs think the phrase "river to the sea ect"
calls for the destruction of their state and the genocide of their people.

it really doesn't matter if they are right or wrong about that, thats the way they feel about and they are the people you need to convince.

so its probably pragmatic practical advice to avoid the phrase.


but people use concepts like "moral panic" to avoid ever having to think practically about anything.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

i'm failing to see what in LD7's post can be misconstrued as antisemitism.

Saying that all Jewish people who don't get involved in the geopolitics of a nation they may not even live in are responsible for the actions of a foreign state...
Calling the nation of Israel "demonic" while being totally silent on Sudan, Azerbaijan, The Uighurs in China, the Kurds ect ect.

I do not at all blame Israeli's given their history to look at all this as thinly veiled anti semitism.
and further radicalize them against any ideas of cooperation.


personally I don't think it's anti semtism, I think people like to morally grandstand on the internet
and this is the one geopolitical conflict many people are familiar with.

so it's easy fodder for online symbolic position taking.

 

[Coromanti]

Thanks for your insights.

So basically you're saying that they is more of a far right shift even among the Israeli population such as the same phenomenon we say that took place with the neo-con Republicans and their supporters who went much more far right, that seems to be the dominant political values and ideology.

As in, it could be a minority of those sorts but they are very vocal and have power and support behind them?

Similar yea. From what I’ve read though the difference is the Israeli shift was predictable and preventable. Unlike the Trump situation it was seen 10 years out. I remember seeing people discussing this demographic issue years ago. And it’s not exactly a vocal minority but a vocal plurality. The vocal minority just say what the plurality don’t realize is a logical consequence of their ideology or if they do realize, won’t publicly admit.

 

[me love nutella]

phrases like "moral panic" are so overused.

the people with the guns and the bombs think the phrase "river to the sea ect"
calls for the destruction of their state and the genocide of their people.

it really doesn't matter if they are right or wrong about that, thats the way they feel about and they are the people you need to convince.

so its probably pragmatic practical advice to avoid the phrase.


but people use concepts like "moral panic" to avoid ever having to think practically about anything.

There definitely is moral panic and outcry over it. It is part of their tactics for dissent of pro-Palestinian voices and to shift to centering Zionists as their feelings matter more with their false assumptions and fear mongering to suppress the Palestinian liberation movement.

They are projecting because they are the supporting the state of Israel annihilating and committing genocide on the Palestinians now and ethnic cleansing for the last 75 years, and make themselves the victims to turn away from their support of war crimes against Palestinians.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

There definitely is moral panic and outcry over it. It is part of their tactics for dissent of pro-Palestinian voices and to shift to centering Zionists as their feelings matter more with their false assumptions and fear mongering to suppress the Palestinian liberation movement.

They are projecting because they are the supporting the state of Israel annihilating and committing genocide on the Palestinians now and ethnic cleansing for the last 75 years, and make themselves the victims to turn away from their support of war crimes against Palestinians.

literally none of that matters.

They have the guns, they have the bombs. If you want them to stop you literally have to "center their feelings."

They have are the ones doing the bombing.

 

[me love nutella]

Saying that all Jewish people who don't get involved in the geopolitics of a nation they may not even live in are responsible for the actions of a foreign state...
Calling the nation of Israel "demonic" while being totally silent on Sudan, Azerbaijan, The Uighurs in China, the Kurds ect ect.

I do not at all blame Israeli's given their history to look at all this as thinly veiled anti semitism.
and further radicalize them against any ideas of cooperation.


personally I don't think it's anti semtism, I think people like to morally grandstand on the internet
and this is the one geopolitical conflict many people are familiar with.

so it's easy fodder for online symbolic position taking.

I am going to come to his defense again because you completely twisted and distorted everything he said.

What is wrong with saying what the state of Israel is doing is demonic? It is because it is. A genocide is demonic. Killing over 11,000 civilians in the most inhumane ways in a month is demonic.

How do you know he is silent on what other regimes are committing when this is a thread on the Israel-Palestine conflict and situation?

This is also another tactic to use semantics to mischaracterize people that are critiquing Israel's crimes against humanity.

Here is something us living out West need to understand, that we as the West espouse democracy and human rights, don't we? We also use it as a way to make ourselves as above others who don't. So, that is why our voices are loud about OUR regimes that directly support another veiled 'democracy' that is supposed to uphold our values for sanctity and dignity of human life. That is why we critique it because we are the ones that dress ourselves as the 'free world' and models of upholding human rights and peace. But, what we are doing is arming and supporting a genocide at the expense of gaslighting that we are doing it in the name of security and peace. That should be called out and stopped.

 

[me love nutella]

literally none of that matters.

They have the guns, they have the bombs. If you want them to stop you literally have to "center their feelings."

They have are the ones doing the bombing.

You think that, ok, cool, your opinion and you can center their feelings.

I would rather think we should center the voices and needs of the oppressed. You know, the ones being bombed and ethnically cleansed for the last 75 years and going through a genocide now.

I wonder what those Zionists supporting the genocide would feel if during the Holocaust, others just kept centering the Nazis 'feelings'.

 

[IATT]

they don’t actually care about the phase…

 

[Zainjal26]

they don’t actually care about the phase…

Been telling people this isn’t even about Hamas . Never was.

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You think that, ok, cool, your opinion and you can center their feelings.

I would rather think we should center the voices and needs of the oppressed. You know, the ones being bombed and ethnically cleansed for the last 75 years and going through a genocide now.

I wonder what those Zionists supporting the genocide would feel if during the Holocaust, others just kept centering the Nazis 'feelings'.

...The alies didnt have to center their feelings because they went to war and destroyed them.

If you think the there is a coalition of nations that will go war in order to destroy Israel. That's cool, then you don't need to center their feelings.

But as long as the Palestinians remain a small oppressed minority with no ability to defeat Israel in a war.

Yes you will need to "center their feelings" just as MLK centered the feelings of white people, just as Mandela centered the feelings of white people as he tried to reassure them they would have a place in a post apartheid south Africa.

You have to pursuade people or you need to defeat them in a war. Calling it a "moral panic" is just a way to not deal with the difficult reality.

But if you want to pin youre hopes of defeating Israel in a WWII open war. I guess you can do that.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[gry60]

I am curious on what you think was beneficial in each of those proposals as Palestinians say none offered any guarantees of a viable independent functional sovereign Palestinian statehood.

You know what?

I didn't realize that past Israeli offers didn't give Palestinians sovereignty over their border with Jordan and full control of their airspace and electromagnetic spectrum (radio communications).

Yeah, I wouldn't take that deal either, but the least I'd do is counter with these items on the table, not just say "no" and walk away.

When it comes to land, it can always be gained back diplomatically.

 

[IATT]

Billionaires are teaming up for pro-Israel, anti-Hamas media drive: Report

The campaign is seeking million-dollar donations from dozens of big names in media, finance and tech, Semafor reported.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[DLF]

The most moral army in the world

 

[ksteezy]

Israeli army is no different than isis at this point, they are blood thirst animals….Israel needs to hire a better PR team tho, this **** is wild PATHETIC

 

[ahat]