Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[shibadekobe]

 

[DLF]

How long before Israel frames an explosion, blames Hamas for breaking ceasefire and nuking the rest of gaza? Meanwhile Jake tapper will have an orgasm on live tv

 

[DripNick]

"Not evil"

 

[tkthafm]

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/11/19/Israeli-ship-reportedly-hijacked-by-Yemen-s-Houthis-in-Red-Sea

 

[me love nutella]

Wartime Poll: Results of an Opinion Poll Among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip

www.awrad.org

i don't think anything should be banned. I just think its dumb thing to say. especially as if you're saying it as propaganda or activism.

Thanks I will look into the poll results.

Would you think saying Free Tibet, Free Congo, Free Sudan, Free Ukraine, etc. as a dumb thing to say?

 

[me love nutella]

Some more on the festival being fired at by Israeli Apache helicopters on October 7:

 

[degenerate423]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Thanks I will look into the poll results.

Would you think saying Free Tibet, Free Congo, Free Sudan, Free Ukraine, etc. as a dumb thing to say?

well each of those situations are different and unique.

"Free Ukraine" - not dumb
- Ukrainians need to appeal to the west, Free Ukraine doesn't trigger western people as they don't care about Russia.
- Nothing about a free Ukraine implies the destruction of Russian
- doesn't carry the same historical baggage as "from the river to the sea"
- there is no powerful lobby or russians in the west who dislike "free ukraine"
- Ukrain could win the war against Russia, so they don't need to pursuade Russia.

Free Tibet - not dumb
- Again mostly appealing to the west.
- no strong lobby of pro China people in the west.
- china is a totalitarian regime that is unpersuadable.

I don't know enough about Sudan or Congo.
But I know about Nigeria. and Id say

the Biafran Independence movement is dumb, and shouting free Biafra is also dumb.

- people who actually experienced like my parents are hostile to any talk of war so you alienate people withing the ethnic group
- nobody in the west cares, and conditions are not nearly bad enough for anyone in the west to ever care.
- given the oil industry interests in Nigeria no one will ever allow an independent Biafra.

so shouting free Biafra, or supporting bifran independence movements just makes you the target of a corrupt government.

 

[DLF]

Some more on the festival being fired at by Israeli Apache helicopters on October 7:

Yawn

We all knew this October 27 when Max Blumenthal reported this.

 

[me love nutella]

well each of those situations are different and unique.

"Free Ukraine" - not dumb
- Ukrainians need to appeal to the west, Free Ukraine doesn't trigger western people as they don't care about Russia.
- Nothing about a free Ukraine implies the destruction of Russian
- doesn't carry the same historical baggage as "from the river to the sea"
- there is no powerful lobby or russians in the west who dislike "free ukraine"
- Ukrain could win the war against Russia, so they don't need to pursuade Russia.

Free Tibet - not dumb
- Again mostly appealing to the west.
- no strong lobby of pro China people in the west.
- china is a totalitarian regime that is unpersuadable.

I don't know enough about Sudan or Congo.
But I know about Nigeria. and Id say

the Biafran Independence movement is dumb, and shouting free Biafra is also dumb.

- people who actually experienced like my parents are hostile to any talk of war so you alienate people withing the ethnic group
- nobody in the west cares, and conditions are not nearly bad enough for anyone in the west to ever care.
- given the oil industry interests in Nigeria no one will ever allow an independent Biafra.

so shouting free Biafra, or supporting bifran independence movements just makes you the target of a corrupt government.

So in activism, to you it is all about appealing to the western folk? Basically, pacify and give in to quiet submission to let them occupy, oppress and repress you, or support your subjugation?

Also, just to show you how it is all about alliances that serve geopolitics to these western corrupt governments...I don't know too much in depth about Nigeria but need to educate myself on it. I didn't even know about Biafra.

Do you think saying Free Biafra is dumb because it doesn't cater to the West... but looks like the West does care.

The Biafra Zionist Front (BZF), formerly known as the Biafra Zionist Movement,[1] is a group agitating for the restoration of Biafra and its independence from Nigeria. It is led by Benjamin Onwuka. The movement's purpose is the actualization of the sovereign state of Biafra along precolonial lines.

The group claims to be supported by Israel and the United States, and Zionism is the official ideology of the organization.

Source: Wikipedia

During the Nigerian Civil War, although both sides acquired weapons from Israel, Israel lent assistance to Biafran rebels in addition to providing humanitarian assistance to Biafra. During the 1960s and early 1970s, Israel played a significant role in the development of Sub-Saharan Africa, including Nigeria.

Source: Wikipedia

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So in activism, to you it is all about appealing to the western folk? Basically, pacify and give in to quiet submission to let them occupy, oppress and repress you, or support your subjugation?

Activism should be about effecting a specific outcome.

if in order to achieve that outcome you need the support of specific people. you should optimize your actions towards gaining that support.

if you are protesting in the west, and appealing to western governments, yes you must appeal to western folk.

Also, just to show you how it is all about alliances that serve geopolitics to these western corrupt governments...I don't know too much in depth about Nigeria but need to educate myself on it. I didn't even know about Biafra.

Do you think saying Free Biafra is dumb because it doesn't cater to the West... but looks like the West does care.

1. When i say, don't care I'm talking today in 2023. Western countries and the US have interest in Nigeria and West Africa then they did in the 1970's.

2. lol yes like France and Isreal supported Biafra.

damn every other western country supported the Nigerian government. and it was the rare conflict in the 1970's where both US AND Russia were on the same side.

so yah Isreal did support Bifra back in the 70s, so it wouldn't suprise me if some pro Zionist sentiment lingers within Bifran nationalist movements.

 

[Raji Lowenthal]

well each of those situations are different and unique.

"Free Ukraine" - not dumb
- Ukrainians need to appeal to the west, Free Ukraine doesn't trigger western people as they don't care about Russia.
- Nothing about a free Ukraine implies the destruction of Russian
- doesn't carry the same historical baggage as "from the river to the sea"
- there is no powerful lobby or russians in the west who dislike "free ukraine"
- Ukrain could win the war against Russia, so they don't need to pursuade Russia.

Free Tibet - not dumb
- Again mostly appealing to the west.
- no strong lobby of pro China people in the west.
- china is a totalitarian regime that is unpersuadable.

I don't know enough about Sudan or Congo.
But I know about Nigeria. and Id say

the Biafran Independence movement is dumb, and shouting free Biafra is also dumb.

- people who actually experienced like my parents are hostile to any talk of war so you alienate people withing the ethnic group
- nobody in the west cares, and conditions are not nearly bad enough for anyone in the west to ever care.
- given the oil industry interests in Nigeria no one will ever allow an independent Biafra.

so shouting free Biafra, or supporting bifran independence movements just makes you the target of a corrupt government.

I don't think anybody outside Isreal views free Palestine as a call to the destruction of Israel. I don't doubt that some Palestinians also feel that way, but doubt the rest of the world saddened by these events hopes the 2 could somehow coexist peacefully without oppression.

 

[me love nutella]

Activism should be about effecting a specific outcome.

if in order to achieve that outcome you need the support of specific people. you should optimize your actions towards gaining that support.

if you are protesting in the west, and appealing to western governments, yes you must appeal to western folk.



1. When i say, don't care I'm talking today in 2023. Western countries and the US have interest in Nigeria and West Africa then they did in the 1970's.

2. lol yes like France and Isreal supported Biafra.

damn every other western country supported the Nigerian government. and it was the rare conflict in the 1970's where both US AND Russia were on the same side.

so yah Isreal did support Bifra back in the 70s, so it wouldn't suprise me if some pro Zionist sentiment lingers within Bifran nationalist movements.

So then, your same logic, in countries that are run by hostile dictatorships and authoritarian governments, should the local people just pacify to their oppressors to appeal to them, and not fight their systems? Do you understand how violent and oppressive systems work.

From research I read today, Israel and the U.S. still back Biafra seperatist movements today.

Also, I am sure you can agree that Western Europe, the U.S. and Israel for sure care and have big stakes in Nigeria to this day.

 

[slaughterx]

How long before Israel frames an explosion, blames Hamas for breaking ceasefire and nuking the rest of gaza? Meanwhile Jake tapper will have an orgasm on live tv

Never... because that would be mutually destructive since they are so close.

China calls for ‘urgent’ action on Gaza as Muslim majority nations arrive in Beijing | CNN

The world must “must act urgently” to stem the conflict in Gaza, China’s top diplomat said Monday during a meeting with officials from Arab and Muslim majority nations, as Beijing steps up its efforts to play a role in establishing ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas conflict.

amp.cnn.com

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I don't think anybody outside Isreal views free Palestine as a call to the destruction of Israel. I don't doubt that some Palestinians also feel that way, but doubt the rest of the world saddened by these events hopes the 2 could somehow coexist peacefully without oppression.

1. I mean that's just not true. Marc Lamont Hill got fired from his CNN job for saying that.
You think they did that because of their Israeli audience?

and of course theres this..

2. Even if it was the case that no one cared but Israli's.

as I keep saying Israeli's are the ones with the guns, and given that you want them to stop shooting,
saying things that they perceive as calling for the destructions of their state and the persecution of their people is prob not great.

and the pro Isreal lobby has tons of influence in america and the west more broadly.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So then, your same logic, in countries that are run by hostile dictatorships and authoritarian governments, should the local people just pacify to their oppressors to appeal to them, and not fight their systems? Do you understand how violent and oppressive systems work.

Unless you can beat your oppressors in a war. The most effective strategy is a kind of non violence resistance practiced by Ghandi, MLK. ect
which of course involves some amount of pacifying your oppressors

So no just as I wouldn't advise anyone in Nigeria to start to wage terrorist campaign against the Nigerian governments.
that is doomed to failure. and I obviously wouldn't advise Palestinians to do that either. tho I can empathize with those who would.

From research I read today, Israel and the U.S. still back Biafra seperatist movements today.

The US did not back Biafra in the original conflict.
and you're gunna need to give me a source that US is backing Biafran Separatist movements today.

Also, I am sure you can agree that Western Europe, the U.S. and Israel for sure care and have big stakes in Nigeria to this day.

sure, but it's not the same as the 1970's. pre shale boom, pre American energy independence.

either way. I think it's dumb, there are US cooperate financial interests in the oil industry,
any American or western support for a free Bifra would evaporate if a war broke out.


ultimately the bottom line is. my grandfather lost everything in the war, land, property ect.
Igbo's remain locked out of the presidency, and were almost certainly cheated in this last election.
Nigerian government is corrupt and oppressive, they shot a bunch of people at a protest my cousin was at in 2020

but even with all this, no I would not advise anyone to take up arms against the Nigerian government, or to support Free Bifran separatist/terrorist movements.
that's a dumb idea.


So if I wouldn't advise my people to do it, why would I tell the Palestinians to do it?

 

[Raji Lowenthal]

1. I mean that's just not true. Marc Lamont Hill got fired from his CNN job for saying that.
You think they did that because of their Israeli audience?

and of course theres this..

2. Even if it was the case that no one cared but Israli's.

as I keep saying Israeli's are the ones with the guns, and given that you want them to stop shooting,
saying things that they perceive as calling for the destructions of their state and the persecution of their people is prob not great.

and the pro Isreal lobby has tons of influence in america and the west more broadly.

Its CNN so it's not surprising to me. So when someone says free Palestine it translates into "from the river to the sea". I felt free Palestine was a call to end suffering.

 

[IATT]

 

[me love nutella]

Unless you can beat your oppressors in a war. The most effective strategy is a kind of non violence resistance practiced by Ghandi, MLK. ect
which of course involves some amount of pacifying your oppressors

So no just as I wouldn't advise anyone in Nigeria to start to wage terrorist campaign against the Nigerian governments.
that is doomed to failure. and I obviously wouldn't advise Palestinians to do that either. tho I can empathize with those who would.
...
So if I wouldn't advise my people to do it, why would I tell the Palestinians to do it?

Palestinians, their diaspora, and supporters always have and still do use diverse methods in their campaigns for social change, including critical forms of education and persuasion, mass noncooperation, civil disobedience, nonviolent  direct action, social, political, cultural and economic forms of intervention. In the occupied territories, you still get shot and killed, silenced, and imprisoned for it. You know that it's a crime by the military occupation of Israel to fly or display the Palestinian flag in the West Bank?

I think some of the western, "pacifist" narratives of non violence lack nuance and context, especially when referring to MLK and Ghandhi.

The oppressed resort to violence when there's no other options left, especially when you're dealing with a violent oppressor that has no conscience.

Do I personally agree with violence? No. But, I can understand it used as a method for the oppressed, and I am not one to judge how the oppressed can resist their violent oppressors. We're talking about people that are violently abused, caged, and mistreated, and whose whole families have been murdered.

I think I am starting to understand your view that you believe that violent resistance against superpower militaries and governments is not effective because of their strength. But actually, in many cases, it has worked.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Palestinians, their diaspora, and supporters always have and still do use diverse methods in their campaigns for social change, including critical forms of education and persuasion, mass noncooperation, civil disobedience, nonviolent  direct action, social, political, cultural and economic forms of intervention. In the occupied territories, you still get shot and killed, silenced, and imprisoned for it. You know that it's a crime by the military occupation of Israel to fly or display the Palestinian flag in the West Bank?

I didn't say non violence was easy, or that it's a guarantee, i think it has a chance of working,. where imo terrorism has zero chance of working in this situation.
I can understand why people do it, sure. I just think it's dumb and doomed to failure.
unless you plan on beating them in a war, terrorism is dumb.

The oppressed resort to violence when there's no other options left, especially when you're dealing with a violent oppressor that has no conscience.

Yah I don't think Israeli's have "no conscience". Bibi probably doesn't, but plenty of liberals in Israel who would sign on to a two state solution.
The problem is they aren't in charge.

I think I am starting to understand your view that you believe that violent resistance against superpower militaries and governments is not effective because of their strength. But actually, in many cases, it has worked.

what cases that are comparable to Isreal-Palestine?

 

[IATT]

 

[Quincy McCall]

First time hearing about this, wild. Wonder if we would cape like this for any other ally-- the true story about the American empire will truly never be told

 

[DLF]

First time hearing about this, wild. Wonder if we would cape like this for any other ally-- the true story about the American empire will truly never be told

Lol

Wait til you hear about some very important spy documents they stole and sold to Russia.

Or the assassination of British parliament members at a hotel in jerusalem

 

[gry60]

First time hearing about this, wild. Wonder if we would cape like this for any other ally-- the true story about the American empire will truly never be told

Anyone who does a deep dive into Israel's quest for independence and subsequent foreign policy will be less receptive to some of their statements, even if they support their right to a state where they currently are.

 

[ahat]

Anyone who does a deep dive into Israel's quest for independence and subsequent foreign policy will be less receptive to some of their statements, even if they support their right to a state where they currently are.

Also their role in Guatemala