Jay-z wouldn't have had a career if Biggie and Pac didn't die - snoop

[deuce king]

I know you weren't talking to me but IMO in 98 DMX was. I will put it to you this way.

It's Dark in hell is hot > everything Jay did except RD, BP, and BA

Since your talking about 1 album and 1 album only champ, sounds like DMX "had a spark when he started..................but now........................BUT NOW".  You know the rest.

Duece got to have the most busted and ****** up knees bruh ..

Says the dude that loves and bows down to Rick Fraud.  We'll give you a call if and when we need a cheerleader, until then stay on the sidelines.  
No doubt.  Eminem definitely did his thing during that timeframe.  However, as far as rap and rap fans go, Jay was more of the favorite between the two.
Too easy champ.  Reason being because as our local shoe aficionado ninjahood would put it when the Bulls played the Suns in the NBA championship 10 years ago (yes 10 years ago 

)   Jay was on top of the game.  

 

[harmito]

Lol Word?

Harm bows down to no man.

I haven't said **** about Ross in who knows how long .. Damn sure got tired of talking the same BS in that dumb *** thread ..

You was in that **** more than me

But I worship Ross.

What a joke.

Matter fact I said Ross is getting stale last time I check ..

You're KNOWN for having a sick obsession with Ross..

You're KNOWN JayZ **** eater ..

The biggest Stan I ever seen in my life

You prolly mad Beyonce had Jay's baby and not you

When Dark and Hell is Hot dropped NO ONE WAS PLAYING JAY Z..

Flesh of My Flesh came out .. NO ONE WAS PLAYING JAYZ

You can't even keep it 100 with yourself and you're older than most these ******

everything you spew if bias *** kissing..

You a clown ..


FOH lol

 

[illphillip]

Well, I'll just say this:

The second rapper to have two albums debut at NUMBER 1 on the Billboard charts in the same year is DMX - he did so in '98...

...the first rapper did it in '96, his name was 'Pac.

If we're talking number only, because "men lie, women lie, numbers don't" - between Jay and X, '98 belonged to X...

That.

 

[deuce king]

Lol Word?

Harm bows down to no man.

I haven't said **** about Ross in who knows how long .. Damn sure got tired of talking the same BS in that dumb *** thread ..

I don't care how long it's been, the fact that you even said ANYTHING in a positive light about Ross from the get go is bad enough for me.  You don't get a pass as far as I'm concerned on that end, and if you think your going to get one you are sorely mistaken champ.  

You're KNOWN for having a sick obsession with Ross..

Pot meet kettle.

The biggest Stan I ever seen in my life

Again, pot meet kettle.

Flesh of My Flesh came out .. NO ONE WAS PLAYING JAYZ

Loud and wrong, but then again what would an exchange between me and you be without me correcting you and setting you straight.  That's what I'm here for champ, and don't you think otherwise..............ever.

 

[harmito]

I ain't tryna lose this name either .. So I'm just gonna make my exit lol ..

You talking pot meet kettle when ****** posted proof time after time of your nonsense ..

Like I said you're clown ..

 

[deuce king]

I ain't tryna lose this name either .. So I'm just gonna make my exit lol ..
 

Very good champ, your learning and growing. It's taken quite a bit of time but you are getting there............slowly but surely and for that I'm proud.  I would like to think I have helped in that process 

.

.....and again, for all the dudes posting and raving about X, he had a 2 year run..............and then was GONE.  Some CAREER he had. As the saying goes, if you give a ***** enough rope, eventually he will hang himself, which is exactly what X did.   

 

[ninjahood]

LOVE to ignore that DMX RULED rap music in 1998-2000

Honestly, a case can be made that both DMX and Jay Z were running rap music from 98-00.  Jay Z for sure from 98-00, DMX more so from 98-99 if anything.

At no point was Jay-Z higher then DMX during DMX's span of 1st 3 albums... He was a super nova.

Lets just break this down champ. Bar for bar, lyric for lyric, song for song.....who was better from 98-00?? Dmx or Jay??

DMX without QUESTION...

jay-z was like alot of other rappers in 1998-2000

DMX was 1 of 1, none before, none to come.

its dark and hell is hot is arguably better then anything in jay-z's catalog..we can talk about how DMX's career went off a clif

and jay-z took opportunity to expand outside of rap, but from 1998-2000 jay-z wasn't even seeing RIP BIG PUN let alone DMX.

and i aint even gonna bring da white boy into this convo cuz its just overkill.

 

[ninjahood]

I ain't tryna lose this name either .. So I'm just gonna make my exit lol ..
 

Very good champ, your learning and growing. It's taken quite a bit of time but you are getting there............slowly but surely and for that I'm proud.  I would like to think I have helped in that process 

.

.....and again, for all the dudes posting and raving about X, he had a 2 year run..............and then was GONE.  Some CAREER he had. As the saying goes, if you give a ***** enough rope, eventually he will hang himself, which is exactly what X did.   

umm DMX had 6 number 1 albums...

his career aint fall off till WAY after grand champ dropped.

 

[deuce king]

its dark and hell is hot is arguably better then anything in jay-z's catalog.

LOL.  Reasonable Doubt is better than any DMX album.  There is, or should be NO question about that.  

DMX was 1 of 1, none before, none to come.

Your absolutely right on that one, is there any other rapper addicted to crack other than DMX.  Anyone??

we can talk about how DMX's career went off a clif

Let's go.

and jay-z took opportunity to expand outside of rap, but from 1998-2000 jay-z wasn't even seeing RIP BIG PUN let alone DMX.

 Just to be clear, I like BOTH DMX and Pun, but both of those dudes took THEMSELVES out the game, so they get no sympathy from me.   Also, Pun was still not seeing Jay for alot of reasons, your letting your hispanic/black heritage cloud your judgement muchacho.

and i aint even gonna bring da white boy into this convo cuz its just overkill..

Stop being a FRAUD champ, even you know in your own state, own city, own neighborhood more people were bumping/playing Jay over Em.  Since you love New York so much, let's talk about it. 

   umm DMX had 6 number 1 albums.

............and as you would say Jay Z is a bigger star than DMX internationally so what are you really saying??  Also, on the Top 5 scale Jay Z still ranks higher than DMX.  So sorry to disappoint all the recent DMX enthusiasts out there.  I like DMX by the way, just wanted to repeat that again. 

 

[illphillip]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.....

Reasonable Doubt has somehow become this mythical album WELL after it's release.

When it came out, it was a great album, but nothing that really stood out from the crowd.

As Jay's career blossomed, Reasonable Doubt has obviously become a milestone as it was the beginning of what's become....an epic career.

But at the time, it wasn't even ALL that.

Deuce, you buggin'. Reasonable Doubt and Capital Punishment have sold roughly the same amount and that's only because Reasonable Doubt currently still sells more week to week.

At the time, Pun had NY on smash. Until his 2nd album failed to live up to expectations at least.....

 

[justicedivine]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.....

Reasonable Doubt has somehow become this mythical album WELL after it's release.

When it came out, it was a great album, but nothing that really stood out from the crowd.

As Jay's career blossomed, Reasonable Doubt has obviously become a milestone as it was the beginning of what's become....an epic career.

But at the time, it wasn't even ALL that.

Deuce, you buggin'. Reasonable Doubt and Capital Punishment have sold roughly the same amount and that's only because Reasonable Doubt currently still sells more week to week.

At the time, Pun had NY on smash. Until his 2nd album failed to live up to expectations at least.....

Pretty much, nothing really ground breaking about the album except the career that followed it. If we are crediting anything in relation to the artistry of the album, as ninja implicated, OB4CL deserves to be mentioned and praised.

 

[ninjahood]

reasonable doubt better then its dark and hell is hot?

reasonable doubt dropped with a resounding THUD in 1996, its dark and hell its hot ushered in a ERA of modern hardcore hip

hop music that just now in these recent times is giving away to hipster/soft rap.

duece looking like a jay-z groupie..again

 

[ninjahood]

this was DMX in 1999 ROCKING woodstock..jay-z wasn't even da headliner at his OWN hard knock life tour

 

[killa07]

this was DMX in 1999 ROCKING woodstock..jay-z wasn't even da headliner at his OWN hard knock life tour

Just imagine if he wasnt on that white girl.... Smh
Plus he wasn't that bad of an actor

 

[deuce king]

First and foremost, right now..............in this thread regarding this very discussion what I realized is, it's not about Jay, DMX, Tupac or Biggie, but moreso the history that is being displayed and discussed.  Between myself and others in here alot of knowledge and game is being spoken.  I say that because as long as we have threads and discussions like this, some of the folks that weren't around or don't know about this timeframe are learning and are able to get a viewpoint of how thing were in hip hop, and that's a good thing.  That way we won't have somebody saying Kanye West is the greatest producer of all-time in a recent thread on here ("no names, but it's no sublime ***** you know who you are, I'll end it for it goes too far 

) Now with that being said let's get down to brass tax.................

 Reasonable Doubt has somehow become this mythical album WELL after it's release.

When it came out, it was a great album, but nothing that really stood out from the crowd.

Michael Jordan was selected 3rd in the draft his incoming year, and is WIDELY regarded as the greatest of all-time ever.  I say that to so this, it's really not about how you start the race in life in general but moreso how you finish, or how things play out.  Personally, I don't really care if Reasonable Doubt, didn't really "stand out from the crowd" upon arrival, that's something that some of the detractors like to hang on to for some reason or another, neither did Jordan apparently but a person or entity it has stood and stands the best of times..........which it does.

Deuce, you buggin'. Reasonable Doubt and Capital Punishment have sold roughly the same amount and that's only because Reasonable Doubt currently still sells more week to week.

For me, I'll gladly take Reasonable Doubt over Capital Punishment or It's Dark and Hell is Hot.  That's just my opinion and if anyone choose either album over Reasonable Doubt, I wouldn't have a problem with that as all 3 albums are great in their own right.  I just feel that Reasonable Doubt is better than both, but that's just me.  Also, do you really want to bring up sells champ, I mean how many copies has Illmatic sold but we still guard that as one of if not the greatest hip hop album of all-time. My man.

At the time, Pun had NY on smash. Until his 2nd album failed to live up to expectations at least.....

Which is why we find ourselves back to the original point of my argument on waiting or seeing how career's finish out.  There's alot of rappers that are on the "had a spark when they started" tip and Pun is just one of them.  

duece looking like a jay-z groupie..again

Well it was either that or argue stupidly about French Montana running the game, and since you already took that lane all by YOURSELF and were deemed wrong over and over again champ, that only leaves me with this 

. 

jay-z wasn't even da headliner at his OWN hard knock life tour 

Oxymoron anyone??  Again, DMX had a good/great 2 year run but that was it.  Also, if you want to post videos about DMX champ, let's post the real...............



I'm not done with you ******, not by a long shot. 

Just imagine if he wasnt on that white girl.... Smh

Sounds like he did it to himself.  Like I said, if you give a ***** enough rope, eventually he'll hang himself.    

 

[killa07]

^^^^ so that "give enough rope" would explain 99% of roc a fella( especially his right hand man bleek and beans) and jayz so called "retirement" correct???

 

[illphillip]

That Reasonable Doubt/Jordan comparison was absolutely ridiculous.

Jordan proved he was the GOAT over time with his performance. And Jay has proven his detractors wrong over time as well.

But MJ's performance in college vs. Sam Bowie's or whoever's got him his draft spot.

MJ being the best Ball player ever doesn't mean he was necessarily the best NCAA ballplayer ever. Sure, he hit a huge shot in a big game. But I'm sure there were more dominant NCAA players (Hank Gathers etc.)

Nor does Jay's career TODAY mean that Reasonable Doubt was a phenomenal album upon release.

Why do we have to be "detractors" because we see it as it was at the time?

Son, for you to even use that as an attempt to support whatever argument you're trying to craft is outlandish.

 

[ninjahood]

DMX's reigned OVER jay-z until he took a sabbatical, thats just facts

when big & pac were alive, jay-z was small potatos....thats facts. this thread should've ended a while ago on that note.

 

[00david00]

That Reasonable Doubt/Jordan comparison was absolutely ridiculous.

Jordan proved he was the GOAT over time with his performance. And Jay has proven his detractors wrong over time as well.

But MJ's performance in college vs. Sam Bowie's or whoever's got him his draft spot.

MJ being the best Ball player ever doesn't mean he was necessarily the best NCAA ballplayer ever. Sure, he hit a huge shot in a big game. But I'm sure there were more dominant NCAA players (Hank Gathers etc.)

Nor does Jay's career TODAY mean that Reasonable Doubt was a phenomenal album upon release.

Why do we have to be "detractors" because we see it as it was at the time?

Son, for you to even use that as an attempt to support whatever argument you're trying to craft is outlandish.

thank you

 

[ill legal operation]

And we can't talk '98 without mentioning Percy Miller...

...like, we just can't.

 

[rrlegend]

all that needed to be said was snoop was right while big and pac were here jay was playing the back seat to not only them but a few other artist at the time, but his consistence , business savy , and good timing got him to where he is today. The only thing i honestly wish for would be for pimp c to be alive to call out all these wanna be drug kingpin rappers 

 

[deuce king]

^^^^ so that "give enough rope" would explain 99% of roc a fella( especially his right hand man bleek and beans) and jayz so called "retirement" correct???

For some dudes on Rocafella yes, for some...........no.

That Reasonable Doubt/Jordan comparison was absolutely ridiculous.

You missed the entire point of that comparison.  It's not about making a splash when you first enter in as you alluded to, but moreso about how your career pans out.  If you wanna say Reasonable Doubt didn't "make a splash or cause waves when it first entered in" so be it, but at the same tone who cares.  Is it really about that??  No, it's about the long haul, it's not about the short term impact, just ask Snoop, DMX, 50 Cent and the rest of that crew.  All of those dudes caused waves when they first entered in, but after that first wave or so, it was time to put the boogie board up my man.

Nor does Jay's career TODAY mean that Reasonable Doubt was a phenomenal album upon release.

Never said it was a phenomenal album, moreso to the point that just because it was overlooked back then doesn't mean it wasn't great. 

Why do we have to be "detractors" because we see it as it was at the time?

Whenever your on top, someone always has SOMETHING to say.  With that being said as far as the "detractors" in general that I pointed out, it's seems to be the same statement over and over again which is Reasonable Doubt wasn't recognized as being great back THEN.  Be that as it may, that seems to be a recurring theme.  

DMX's reigned OVER jay-z until he took a sabbatical, thats just facts

LOL.  So now DMX took a sabbatical huh??  How bout DMX buckled under the pressure and now finds himself in the hip hop laughable abyss right along side your boy Prodigy.  If you think I'm going to let you rewrite history or say that the Bulls vs. the Suns NBA championship was 10 years ago you got another thing coming champ.  Believe me on that 

.    

when big & pac were alive, jay-z was small potatos

True indeed.  However as this thread has gone on, to say that he would have stayed small potatoes (by the way you spelled potatoes wrong, don't worry I got you covered Dan Quayle) during their reign is foolish, just like to say he would have taken Big and Pac's spot while both were still alive and going is foolish as well.  

 

[killa07]

Lets see roc a fella records
Bleek-(could have been a decent artist), jay never let him truly shine and got that work from kiss
Beans-one of the coldest, can't stay out the pen
Freeway-see how jay did him in Philly
Dame-ished all over him
State property/chris&neff-ished all over them and Chris only been on one subpar record with meek since then
Peedi crack(was one of my favs)- jay sent him to the wolves and legit scared of dude
So yes 99% of roc a fella died out just like dmx with the white girl
Like someone said jayz has survived and used tactics to keep his star shining( like I said I am a big fan of jay) but clearly he has really only had maybe truly four albums I can legit listen to all the material on it without getting bored and listening to the same "Hawaii Sophie fame" lyrics that have been regurgitated at nauseum since vol. 1
And it's true I didn't even get hip to reasonable doubt until he went at nas
Jayz would have been succesful if PAC and Big were still alive but I seriously doubt he would have been this BIG
Plus it's all speculation and too many factors are at play here
Would PAC have stop riding on bad boy and jay?
Would PAC and BIG talked it out and squashed the beef?
Would PAC have stayed on Death Row and did his own thing?
Could BIG have put out another quality album?
Would BIG have cosign NAS more then JAY???
Just too many factors but at the end of the day we will never know the true answers because when those two died the lane of hip hop was blown wide open
I mean for god sake as a sophomore/ junior in high school you couldn't tell me master p wasnt the second coming of pac(lol), bad boy was still putting quality work out especially mase and Harlem world
Then you had outkast and the dungeon family
Plus the golden era of r & b was happening
So so def was huge(hell jay really blew up with "money ain't a thang")
Also missy and timbaland and the whole super friends movement
I mean music as a whole benefited from their deaths
So Snoop is definately right

 

[law3001]

And we can't talk '98 without mentioning Percy Miller...

...like, we just can't.

**** while we at it you can't talk about 98 or 99 without Cash Money. 2000 without Nelly

 

[ninjahood]

That Reasonable Doubt/Jordan comparison was absolutely ridiculous.

Jordan proved he was the GOAT over time with his performance. And Jay has proven his detractors wrong over time as well.

But MJ's performance in college vs. Sam Bowie's or whoever's got him his draft spot.

MJ being the best Ball player ever doesn't mean he was necessarily the best NCAA ballplayer ever. Sure, he hit a huge shot in a big game. But I'm sure there were more dominant NCAA players (Hank Gathers etc.)

Nor does Jay's career TODAY mean that Reasonable Doubt was a phenomenal album upon release.

Why do we have to be "detractors" because we see it as it was at the time?

Son, for you to even use that as an attempt to support whatever argument you're trying to craft is outlandish.

thank you

illphillip = da beacon of common sense in da music threads..thank god.