Kobe's game 7

[darthska]

CP:

---

Ska, what's your take?  You aren't known as a Kobe stan, do you have issue with Pau not getting the MVP?  Do you see why Kobe gets over Pau, or you think it's an error, what do you think?
You effing bum. Why'd you ask me this?

Nah, as soon as the game was over, I had Pau as my MVP, but knew it would o to Kobe. Tough for me to go against Pau's double-double for the series and his 19 pts + 18 boards in gm. 7, including critical plays in the last 7 minutes or so.

HOWEVA...

MJsaver:

---

its not like he [Pau] dominated the whole series and got overlooked.

Sure he played well enough to be considered, but dudes beatin it into the ground like Kobe gettin it is ridiculous.

Both players had highs & lows throughout the series.

Kobe probly got the benefit of the doubt because of who he is, but if u think theres no way in hell he desreved it, youre no better than the Kobe stans
This. All of it.

Although I think Pau was the MVP...

#1- ...he wasn't dominant

#2- ...Kobe didn't suck.#3- Because of those 2 things, arguing that Pau was robbed is ridiculous.

#4- In any Finals featuring Kobe (or LeBron, or Wade), the majority opinion will be that Kobe (or LeBron, or Wade) is he MVP if their team wins, and this opinion exists before thw gm. 1 tipoff. A teammate of those guys in a Finals would have to play SPECTACULAR to be given the MVP. Pau wasn't spectacular.

 

[bijald0331]

I'm interested in hearing Ska's take on this MVP controversy. I think Kobe should have gotten it just off him numbers. I mean he still got 28 points per game in a relatively low-scoring series.

 

[bijald0331]

I'm interested in hearing Ska's take on this MVP controversy. I think Kobe should have gotten it just off him numbers. I mean he still got 28 points per game in a relatively low-scoring series.

 

[si3xers55]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Did you know that Tim Duncan -- the man that many consider the best player of the 2000s and the greatest power forward of all time -- averaged just 15 points a game in Games 3 and 4 of the 2005 Finals on 10-for-32 shooting? In the decisive Game 7, he went 10-for-27.

Yes.

I don't remember the exact numbers but I definitely remember Duncan shooting bad in the 2005 finals.

I also remember my 1st grade math and that, although both are bad, there's a difference between hitting over a third of your shots and hitting a fourth of your shots like Duncan and Kobe did in their game 7s.

One thing I definitely don't remember is Duncan being mentioned as the clutchest player in the game and among the clutchest ever, and should therefore criticized as much as the oh so clutch Kobe for shooting bad in game 7.

Do you remember that or do you remember that he won Finals MVP and his third ring?


I remember both these things.

Do you remember that Duncan also went a combined 10-of-32 in the last two games of the 2007 Finals or do you remember that it was his fourth ring?


Again, I remember both these things. I also remember that Duncan's bad shooting didn't go unnoticed and a player more deserving (Tony Parker) won the MVP. But of course, this wasn't the case for Gasol in 2010 because they "tend to play by different rules with Kobe".

What about the deity that is Michael Jordan? In 1998 we remember the three-peat and the game-winner in Game 6. We have forgotten, however, that in Game 5, at home with a chance to close out the Jazz, MJ shot 9-of-26, with four turnovers. We also don't remember that in the previous series against the Pacers, Jordan was just 9-for-25 in Game 7. We remember only the Bulls won and advanced to the Finals.


First of all, I remember Michael Jordan being 35 at the time, 4 years older than Kobe is now.

Secondly, I still don't remember Jordan shooting as bad in the 98 finals as Kobe did in 2010.

Do we remember that Jordan was 5-of-19, with five turnovers, in the decisive Game 6 of the 1996 Finals? Nope. We remember that the Bulls won the championship, despite MJ's performance.


I definitely remember that Jordan shot 5-19 that game, that he had a bad 1996 finals individually and that Shawn Kemp was the best player of the 1996 finals individually. I also remember that unlike Kobe in 2010, the player that won Fianls MVP in 1996 didn't rob another player. Scottie Pippen shot like crap that series as well and averaged only 15 points if I remember correctly. Shawn Kemp was the moral Finals MVP of that series, but he obviously couldn't get it since his team lost. I also remember that Jordan's 5-19 game didn't come in an all-or-nothing game like Kobe's 6-24.

But all in all, any bad finals game/performance from Jordan you can point out is an exception in his stellar career, most notably his three finals performances from the first three-peat. The horrible 6-24 shooting game by Kobe is closer to being a rule than being an exception in his NBA finals performances. He only played well (still nothing like Jordan's first three-peat finals though) in two finals - 2002 and 2009. The rest of his 5 finals appearances range from inefficient to plain horrible. Find Jordan's worst finals games and they are nowhere near as many and as bad as this:

Game 4 2000 Finals: 4-20, 8 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists
Game 1 2001 Finals: 7-22, 15 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 6 turnovers
Game 1 2004 Finals: 10-27, 25 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists
Game 3 2004 Finals: 4-13, 11 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers
Game 4 2004 Finals: 8-25, 22 points, 0 rebounds, 2 assists
Game 5 2004 Finals: 7-21, 24 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists
Game 1 2008 Finals: 9-26, 24 points, 3 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 turnovers
Game 4 2008 Finals: 6-19, 17 points, 4 rebounds, 10 assists
Game 5 2008 Finals: 8-21, 25 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 6 turnovers
Game 6 2008 Finals: 7-22, 22 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 turnovers
Game 4 2009 Finals: 11-31, 32 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists
Game 3 2010 Finals: 10-29, 29 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists
Game 7 2010 Finals: 6-24, 23 points, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 turnovers

We remember Jerry West as "The Logo," not the loser of eight of nine Finals series.


Definitely not entirely true and depends on the context. If someone mentions Jerry West casually, we might remember him as The Logo. If someone starts comparing Jerry West to Michael Jordan, you best believe everything negative about his career will be pointed out to show that he's not Michael Jordan. The same goes for every other player, depending on the magnitude of the claim made about him. And this where this whole article fails.

1. duncan obviously takes more high percentage shots than kobe
2. kobe came into the league at 17, MJ played collage bball...the age difference shouldnt matter cuz kobes played almost more minutes than anyone

 

[si3xers55]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Did you know that Tim Duncan -- the man that many consider the best player of the 2000s and the greatest power forward of all time -- averaged just 15 points a game in Games 3 and 4 of the 2005 Finals on 10-for-32 shooting? In the decisive Game 7, he went 10-for-27.

Yes.

I don't remember the exact numbers but I definitely remember Duncan shooting bad in the 2005 finals.

I also remember my 1st grade math and that, although both are bad, there's a difference between hitting over a third of your shots and hitting a fourth of your shots like Duncan and Kobe did in their game 7s.

One thing I definitely don't remember is Duncan being mentioned as the clutchest player in the game and among the clutchest ever, and should therefore criticized as much as the oh so clutch Kobe for shooting bad in game 7.

Do you remember that or do you remember that he won Finals MVP and his third ring?


I remember both these things.

Do you remember that Duncan also went a combined 10-of-32 in the last two games of the 2007 Finals or do you remember that it was his fourth ring?


Again, I remember both these things. I also remember that Duncan's bad shooting didn't go unnoticed and a player more deserving (Tony Parker) won the MVP. But of course, this wasn't the case for Gasol in 2010 because they "tend to play by different rules with Kobe".

What about the deity that is Michael Jordan? In 1998 we remember the three-peat and the game-winner in Game 6. We have forgotten, however, that in Game 5, at home with a chance to close out the Jazz, MJ shot 9-of-26, with four turnovers. We also don't remember that in the previous series against the Pacers, Jordan was just 9-for-25 in Game 7. We remember only the Bulls won and advanced to the Finals.


First of all, I remember Michael Jordan being 35 at the time, 4 years older than Kobe is now.

Secondly, I still don't remember Jordan shooting as bad in the 98 finals as Kobe did in 2010.

Do we remember that Jordan was 5-of-19, with five turnovers, in the decisive Game 6 of the 1996 Finals? Nope. We remember that the Bulls won the championship, despite MJ's performance.


I definitely remember that Jordan shot 5-19 that game, that he had a bad 1996 finals individually and that Shawn Kemp was the best player of the 1996 finals individually. I also remember that unlike Kobe in 2010, the player that won Fianls MVP in 1996 didn't rob another player. Scottie Pippen shot like crap that series as well and averaged only 15 points if I remember correctly. Shawn Kemp was the moral Finals MVP of that series, but he obviously couldn't get it since his team lost. I also remember that Jordan's 5-19 game didn't come in an all-or-nothing game like Kobe's 6-24.

But all in all, any bad finals game/performance from Jordan you can point out is an exception in his stellar career, most notably his three finals performances from the first three-peat. The horrible 6-24 shooting game by Kobe is closer to being a rule than being an exception in his NBA finals performances. He only played well (still nothing like Jordan's first three-peat finals though) in two finals - 2002 and 2009. The rest of his 5 finals appearances range from inefficient to plain horrible. Find Jordan's worst finals games and they are nowhere near as many and as bad as this:

Game 4 2000 Finals: 4-20, 8 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists
Game 1 2001 Finals: 7-22, 15 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 6 turnovers
Game 1 2004 Finals: 10-27, 25 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists
Game 3 2004 Finals: 4-13, 11 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers
Game 4 2004 Finals: 8-25, 22 points, 0 rebounds, 2 assists
Game 5 2004 Finals: 7-21, 24 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists
Game 1 2008 Finals: 9-26, 24 points, 3 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 turnovers
Game 4 2008 Finals: 6-19, 17 points, 4 rebounds, 10 assists
Game 5 2008 Finals: 8-21, 25 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 6 turnovers
Game 6 2008 Finals: 7-22, 22 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 turnovers
Game 4 2009 Finals: 11-31, 32 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists
Game 3 2010 Finals: 10-29, 29 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists
Game 7 2010 Finals: 6-24, 23 points, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 turnovers

We remember Jerry West as "The Logo," not the loser of eight of nine Finals series.


Definitely not entirely true and depends on the context. If someone mentions Jerry West casually, we might remember him as The Logo. If someone starts comparing Jerry West to Michael Jordan, you best believe everything negative about his career will be pointed out to show that he's not Michael Jordan. The same goes for every other player, depending on the magnitude of the claim made about him. And this where this whole article fails.

1. duncan obviously takes more high percentage shots than kobe
2. kobe came into the league at 17, MJ played collage bball...the age difference shouldnt matter cuz kobes played almost more minutes than anyone

 

[knightngale]

how can Pau be considered MVP when dude is being guarded 1 on 1 because kobe is getting all the attention? He did not even beast when guarded by glenn davis except for that 3 point play in game 7.

 

[knightngale]

how can Pau be considered MVP when dude is being guarded 1 on 1 because kobe is getting all the attention? He did not even beast when guarded by glenn davis except for that 3 point play in game 7.

 

[ballinboykz]

Im quite impressed. This discussion has actually gone pretty well so far...

I dont know who it was, but I do have a comment regarding the topic at hand. Yes, we all use MJ as the "standard" to compare to, but at the same time can we not appreciate Kobe's greatness while its here? I was too young to watch MJ in his prime, and if I can watch the closest thing to it in his prime, id be damned if i dont.

I honestly think theres too much dwelling on the past. I will never not give praise to guys like MJ, Bill, Magic, etc. But at the same time, can we not appreciate the very small percentage of people that will one day be in discussion with those of the past?

Maybe its just me, but man, this arguement is so simple, yet beat to death. Kobe is the best player on the planet right now. We shouldnt be forced to discredit what he can do just because hes not the best player of all time. Enjoy it while its here, because when its gone, alot of people are going to regret it. Believe me on that one.

 

[ballinboykz]

Im quite impressed. This discussion has actually gone pretty well so far...

I dont know who it was, but I do have a comment regarding the topic at hand. Yes, we all use MJ as the "standard" to compare to, but at the same time can we not appreciate Kobe's greatness while its here? I was too young to watch MJ in his prime, and if I can watch the closest thing to it in his prime, id be damned if i dont.

I honestly think theres too much dwelling on the past. I will never not give praise to guys like MJ, Bill, Magic, etc. But at the same time, can we not appreciate the very small percentage of people that will one day be in discussion with those of the past?

Maybe its just me, but man, this arguement is so simple, yet beat to death. Kobe is the best player on the planet right now. We shouldnt be forced to discredit what he can do just because hes not the best player of all time. Enjoy it while its here, because when its gone, alot of people are going to regret it. Believe me on that one.

 

[hannsum]

kobe = very emotional = game 7 = nervous = 6/24 fg

as simple as that.

 

[hannsum]

kobe = very emotional = game 7 = nervous = 6/24 fg

as simple as that.

 

[goldmember]

Originally Posted by HANNSUM

kobe = very emotional = game 7 = nervous = 6/24 fg

as simple as that.

What do you call Lebron's performance the last two games with the C's then?

 

[goldmember]

Originally Posted by HANNSUM

kobe = very emotional = game 7 = nervous = 6/24 fg

as simple as that.

What do you call Lebron's performance the last two games with the C's then?

 

[aristotle604]

^I called them the "Delonte West"....I dunno about you guys...

 

[aristotle604]

^I called them the "Delonte West"....I dunno about you guys...

 

[dt43]

to be honest, there was no MVP controversy.

if Pau was out there beasting, i could understand. but he was just as inconsistent as Kobe, maybe even more. he only shot 48%... a big man shooting under 50% is pretty much equal to a SG shooting 40%.

Pau's success comes from him feeding off of Kobe. that's why Kobe is the most valuable player.. everyone feeds off of him, and if he wasn't there the team would fall apart.

 

[dt43]

to be honest, there was no MVP controversy.

if Pau was out there beasting, i could understand. but he was just as inconsistent as Kobe, maybe even more. he only shot 48%... a big man shooting under 50% is pretty much equal to a SG shooting 40%.

Pau's success comes from him feeding off of Kobe. that's why Kobe is the most valuable player.. everyone feeds off of him, and if he wasn't there the team would fall apart.

 

[bangdak]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

CP:

---

Ska, what's your take?  You aren't known as a Kobe stan, do you have issue with Pau not getting the MVP?  Do you see why Kobe gets over Pau, or you think it's an error, what do you think?

You effing bum. Why'd you ask me this?

Nah, as soon as the game was over, I had Pau as my MVP, but knew it would o to Kobe. Tough for me to go against Pau's double-double for the series and his 19 pts + 18 boards in gm. 7, including critical plays in the last 7 minutes or so.

HOWEVA...

MJsaver:

---

its not like he [Pau] dominated the whole series and got overlooked.

Sure he played well enough to be considered, but dudes beatin it into the ground like Kobe gettin it is ridiculous.

Both players had highs & lows throughout the series.

Kobe probly got the benefit of the doubt because of who he is, but if u think theres no way in hell he desreved it, youre no better than the Kobe stans
This. All of it.

Although I think Pau was the MVP...

#1- ...he wasn't dominant

#2- ...Kobe didn't suck.#3- Because of those 2 things, arguing that Pau was robbed is ridiculous.

#4- In any Finals featuring Kobe (or LeBron, or Wade), the majority opinion will be that Kobe (or LeBron, or Wade) is he MVP if their team wins, and this opinion exists before thw gm. 1 tipoff. A teammate of those guys in a Finals would have to play SPECTACULAR to be given the MVP. Pau wasn't spectacular.
I have no idea how you would even put Pau as your MVP.

Sure, Kobe didnt deserve it, i definitely agree on that, but to argue Pau? He was WAY too inconsistent to even come close to that MVP. sure he had a lot of good games, but he also had a lot of bad ones.

Sure, you can say Kobe had his ups and down, but at the end of the day,  hes kobe end of story. If Pau was able to play more consistently, i def. wouldnt mind Pau getting that MVP.

 

[bangdak]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

CP:

---

Ska, what's your take?  You aren't known as a Kobe stan, do you have issue with Pau not getting the MVP?  Do you see why Kobe gets over Pau, or you think it's an error, what do you think?

You effing bum. Why'd you ask me this?

Nah, as soon as the game was over, I had Pau as my MVP, but knew it would o to Kobe. Tough for me to go against Pau's double-double for the series and his 19 pts + 18 boards in gm. 7, including critical plays in the last 7 minutes or so.

HOWEVA...

MJsaver:

---

its not like he [Pau] dominated the whole series and got overlooked.

Sure he played well enough to be considered, but dudes beatin it into the ground like Kobe gettin it is ridiculous.

Both players had highs & lows throughout the series.

Kobe probly got the benefit of the doubt because of who he is, but if u think theres no way in hell he desreved it, youre no better than the Kobe stans
This. All of it.

Although I think Pau was the MVP...

#1- ...he wasn't dominant

#2- ...Kobe didn't suck.#3- Because of those 2 things, arguing that Pau was robbed is ridiculous.

#4- In any Finals featuring Kobe (or LeBron, or Wade), the majority opinion will be that Kobe (or LeBron, or Wade) is he MVP if their team wins, and this opinion exists before thw gm. 1 tipoff. A teammate of those guys in a Finals would have to play SPECTACULAR to be given the MVP. Pau wasn't spectacular.
I have no idea how you would even put Pau as your MVP.

Sure, Kobe didnt deserve it, i definitely agree on that, but to argue Pau? He was WAY too inconsistent to even come close to that MVP. sure he had a lot of good games, but he also had a lot of bad ones.

Sure, you can say Kobe had his ups and down, but at the end of the day,  hes kobe end of story. If Pau was able to play more consistently, i def. wouldnt mind Pau getting that MVP.

 

[dt43]

Originally Posted by 0cks

IMO Kobe's on of the best players ever but tell me this, do ya'll think DWade wouldn't have three-peated with Shaq in his prime? LeBron? Dude was spotted three rings

took the ogre in the middle for granted and struggled before getting the two-headed monster now in the middle. Really I have Kobe being the best player in the league for like two years out of his entire career. Otherwise it was always Shaq, Timmy, AI, KG, Nash or LBJ (Dirk has Kobe's other MVP trophy)

why are we talking in hypotheticals though? i would also think Lebron would make the Finals at least once with the league's best team two years in a row, but things don't always work out like we think they would.

its ridiculous to say Kobe was "spotted" three rings when he played a tremendous role in getting them. its not like he was riding Shaq's coattails. there were multiple instances where LA would have lost if Kobe didn't step up and become the best player on the floor. Shaq was clearly the top dog for the first ring, but by 2001 and on him and Kobe were basically 1a and 1b.

just look at Kobe's stats from the 2001 playoffs:

as far as i can see, he wasn't "spotted" anything.. he played his !@$ off.


and who makes up the "two-headed" monster in the middle for the Lakers? Pau must have grown another head, because i know you aren't calling an injury-prone Bynum a monster?

 

[dt43]

Originally Posted by 0cks

IMO Kobe's on of the best players ever but tell me this, do ya'll think DWade wouldn't have three-peated with Shaq in his prime? LeBron? Dude was spotted three rings

took the ogre in the middle for granted and struggled before getting the two-headed monster now in the middle. Really I have Kobe being the best player in the league for like two years out of his entire career. Otherwise it was always Shaq, Timmy, AI, KG, Nash or LBJ (Dirk has Kobe's other MVP trophy)

why are we talking in hypotheticals though? i would also think Lebron would make the Finals at least once with the league's best team two years in a row, but things don't always work out like we think they would.

its ridiculous to say Kobe was "spotted" three rings when he played a tremendous role in getting them. its not like he was riding Shaq's coattails. there were multiple instances where LA would have lost if Kobe didn't step up and become the best player on the floor. Shaq was clearly the top dog for the first ring, but by 2001 and on him and Kobe were basically 1a and 1b.

just look at Kobe's stats from the 2001 playoffs:

as far as i can see, he wasn't "spotted" anything.. he played his !@$ off.


and who makes up the "two-headed" monster in the middle for the Lakers? Pau must have grown another head, because i know you aren't calling an injury-prone Bynum a monster?

 

[darthska]

BangDak:

---

Sure, Kobe didnt deserve it, i definitely agree on that
Then who did?

BangDak:

---

but to argue Pau? He was WAY too inconsistent to even come close to that MVP. sure he had a lot of good games, but he also had a lot of bad ones.
First off, I'm not arguing Pau. I'm not arguing anything, which is why I'll probably make this my last reply on the topic. CP asked for my take, and I mentioned in my reply that I think it's ridiculous to argue anyone, because no one was like, 'lights out killing it', in my opinion.

Now, why Pau? I've always had a hard time appreciating stats that are the result of volume shooting, and Kobe is definitely a volume shooter. I mean tons of scorers in today's NBA are volume shooters, but I have trouble seeing their efficiency also. A guy giving me a double double on the series, grabbing 18 boards in gm 7, including critical late-in-the-game rebounds, making timely assists? I can definitely appreciate that guy a lot easier than a volume shooter. That's how I've always been, and it has always been perceived as Kobe hate.

 

[darthska]

BangDak:

---

Sure, Kobe didnt deserve it, i definitely agree on that
Then who did?

BangDak:

---

but to argue Pau? He was WAY too inconsistent to even come close to that MVP. sure he had a lot of good games, but he also had a lot of bad ones.
First off, I'm not arguing Pau. I'm not arguing anything, which is why I'll probably make this my last reply on the topic. CP asked for my take, and I mentioned in my reply that I think it's ridiculous to argue anyone, because no one was like, 'lights out killing it', in my opinion.

Now, why Pau? I've always had a hard time appreciating stats that are the result of volume shooting, and Kobe is definitely a volume shooter. I mean tons of scorers in today's NBA are volume shooters, but I have trouble seeing their efficiency also. A guy giving me a double double on the series, grabbing 18 boards in gm 7, including critical late-in-the-game rebounds, making timely assists? I can definitely appreciate that guy a lot easier than a volume shooter. That's how I've always been, and it has always been perceived as Kobe hate.

 

[CP1708]

I remember John Hollinger, a guy I hate, and a KNOWN Kobe hater, writing an article after game 5 in which he said, win or lose, Kobe may be the MVP of the finals.  Win or lose. 

Now that's saying something. 

Now, it's also conjecture, and we didn't know how the next 2 games would go (or 1 game worst case) and after game 6, nobody was changing their mind, Kobe was still lookin like the MVP of the series after 6 games.  (If the Lakers won, I think Rondo or Paul get it if Boston won the series, no way in this day and age a player from the losing team would actually get it, I just thought the mention of it was an accomplishment in and of itself) 

So after one shaky game, in which he was still the high scorer in the game, and added 15 rebounds, and played solid D all night on 3 key Celtics, and scored 10 4th quarter points and the assist to Artest for the clinching 3, NOW Pau is the MVP?  How does that make sense to anybody? 

That's just my thoughts, if you go thru all the games, not just one game in which people are trying to discredit someone.  For the first 6 games, I didn't hear anyone beggin for Pau to get the trophy, and I actually heard haters and media types saying Kobe could win it, even in a losing effort.  Think about that. 

 

[CP1708]

I remember John Hollinger, a guy I hate, and a KNOWN Kobe hater, writing an article after game 5 in which he said, win or lose, Kobe may be the MVP of the finals.  Win or lose. 

Now that's saying something. 

Now, it's also conjecture, and we didn't know how the next 2 games would go (or 1 game worst case) and after game 6, nobody was changing their mind, Kobe was still lookin like the MVP of the series after 6 games.  (If the Lakers won, I think Rondo or Paul get it if Boston won the series, no way in this day and age a player from the losing team would actually get it, I just thought the mention of it was an accomplishment in and of itself) 

So after one shaky game, in which he was still the high scorer in the game, and added 15 rebounds, and played solid D all night on 3 key Celtics, and scored 10 4th quarter points and the assist to Artest for the clinching 3, NOW Pau is the MVP?  How does that make sense to anybody? 

That's just my thoughts, if you go thru all the games, not just one game in which people are trying to discredit someone.  For the first 6 games, I didn't hear anyone beggin for Pau to get the trophy, and I actually heard haters and media types saying Kobe could win it, even in a losing effort.  Think about that.