Lebron James Is Ruining The Game For The Average Fan

[jumpmanpro97]

I don't get it.

the IF question. IF Kobe was on the Hornets would he have 5 rings right now?

 

[kingkoopa]

I don't get it.

He's saying wonder if Kobe was never traded to the Lakers. He would of got at least 2.

 

[ohmygosher]

This is about Lebron tho. If summer 2010 didn't would Lebron still be ringless? This was the question.

 

[scotthallwithapick]

This is about Lebron tho. If summer 2010 didn't would Lebron still be ringless? This was the question.

Of course he would cause it would still be Spring 2010

 

[dade b0y]

They colluded to achieve it

All of them should've took their fair market value to play for Heat.

You don't know what 'colluded' means, and I mean both the dictionary definition, and the NBA's wording.

 

[ultralightbeam]

You don't know what 'colluded' means, and I mean both the dictionary definition, and the NBA's wording.

Dude just threw the word out there.

 

[AgentZero]

Lebron fans always bring up how high his assists and rebound totals are and how much of a triple double threat he is. When he has a double digit assist game people mention how he's a 6'8" forward, but when he has a double digit rebound game people act like he's much smaller and not the 6'8" 250 lb forward that he is.  While obviously a triple double is a highly respectable stat, you have to look at how he earns it.  When comparing his assist totals: The majority of the time he controls the ball for most of the shot clock and he brings the ball up the court very often. Essentially he is playing the role of the point guard, so you can't really be comparing his assist totals to traditional forwards, you should compare them with point guards who play that same role for their team.  In addition and through no fault of his own, Miami is loaded with corner 3 point shooters and defenses often throw a double team at him, which boost his assist totals even more.  When comparing his rebound totals: Shouldn't around 8 rebounds be expected of a 6'8" 250 lb player who was born with (he didn't work out till the NBA) an incredible vertical and athleticism?  He also flops way too much for a player his size and benefits from the referees in a way unlike anything I've ever seen before.

 

[duba169]

Now they didn't collude and team up? Some real revisionist history.

You can't say he made the smart decision to go to Miami and then pretend like they didn't collude to team up. Stop it. They deceived and misled all the GM's in the league when they KNEW they were all ending up in Miami together. They limited competition. It doesn't have to be illegal to be collusion.

So wade wasn't an intermediary between lebron and pat Riley?

 

[scotthallwithapick]

 When comparing his assist totals: The majority of the time he controls the ball for most of the shot clock and he brings the ball up the court very often. Essentially he is playing the role of the point guard, so you can't really be comparing his assist totals to traditional forwards, you should compare them with point guards who play that same role for their team.

Ok let's do that. He was 10th in assists and 8th if you don't count Rubio, Jameer and Rondo who played a lot less games. Also 5th in the postseason.

Shouldn't around 8 rebounds be expected of a 6'8" 250 lb player who was born with (he didn't work out till the NBA) an incredible vertical and athleticism?

Ok let's do that. He was 21st above 6'8 Paul George, 6'9 (I doubt it) KD, the 7'1 Marc Gasol who gets praised for his rebound presence, Ibaka the lone post presence in OKC.

Because you expect it of him doesn't mean it ain't nice. I expect Curry to make damn near all his 3s doesn't make it an average feat.

 

[AgentZero]

You can't say he made the smart decision to go to Miami and then pretend like they didn't collude to team up. Stop it. They deceived and misled all the GM's in the league when they KNEW they were all ending up in Miami together. They limited competition. It doesn't have to be illegal to be collusion.

THIS. Lebron and Bosh's exits from Cleveland and Toronto respectively were very similar and you could tell they created a rift within their teams prior to departure.

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Now they didn't collude and team up? Some real revisionist history.

You can't say he made the smart decision to go to Miami and then pretend like they didn't collude to team up. Stop it. They deceived and misled all the GM's in the league when they KNEW they were all ending up in Miami together. They limited competition. It doesn't have to be illegal to be collusion.

So wade wasn't an intermediary between lebron and pat Riley?

View media item 420415

 

[AgentZero]

Because you expect it of him doesn't mean it ain't nice. I expect Curry to make damn near all his 3s doesn't make it an average feat.

Never said it wasn't nice. I was just pointing out how unfair it is to compare Lebron to forwards for his assist totals and how many rebounds he gets for a guy who brings the ball up the court.

 

[duba169]

View media item 420415

"Collusion is an agreement between two or more parties, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage.[citation needed] It is an agreement among firms or individuals to divide a market, set prices, limit production or limit opportunities"


You see the part that says SOMETIMES illegal. I wouldn't say it if I didn't read the definition.


Govt choosing which banks to bail out and which to fail is a type of collusion. Yet it isn't illegal. Still very controversial. The league black balling shareef Abdur-Raheem. Clear collusion. Is that illegal?

 

[dade b0y]

Now they didn't collude and team up? Some real revisionist history.

You can't say he made the smart decision to go to Miami and then pretend like they didn't collude to team up. Stop it. They deceived and misled all the GM's in the league when they KNEW they were all ending up in Miami together. They limited competition. It doesn't have to be illegal to be collusion.

So wade wasn't an intermediary between lebron and pat Riley?

You don't know what collude means either.

And it's called free agency. And there's also nothing against players talking to one another. They're not allowed to meet on the teams behalf (until the moratorium passes) , but they're perfectly free to make their own plans. All the other speculation and hearsay is exactly that, speculation and hearsay.

 

[lilpennymagicfan]

Dudes saying Bron isnt a scorer but KD got 1 50 point game under his belt and it was this year in double overtime I think??

Melo never dropped 55 did he???

Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.

Everybody always wants to blow the greats for our past. I don't wanna hear anybody in here saying magic is a WAY better passer than Lebron. Unless you are in your 40s or have watched magic's career from 79-90 then you cant comment on Magic being WAY greater of a passer than Lebron...

Lebron is an elite shooter. The numbers speak for themselves. He is the most dangerous offensive player on the planet. This isnt 2008 when he still struggled to make shots. Players are playing D right up on him. They don't give him the space he used to get. Hence why the bulls got so many illegal defenses called against them. They played him straight up with noah or boozer waiting in the paint... "I watch the games"

I don't get how we keep hearing melo and kobe are much better shooters and elite shooters but bron isnt? Are you guys basically calling Kobe and Melo dumb/******ed players since they take contested shots or try to shoot out of double teams instead of doing the logical/smart thing to do and pass to an NBA player who is wide open at the moment?


Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"

 

[AgentZero]

Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.

Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"

It's funny that you should mention that video as I did a comparison between several NBA and non-NBA fans on who they thought was a better passer off of watching that video and the one with Magic's best assists here. Everyone agreed (a diehard Lebron fan included) that Magic really was that much better of a passer.

 

[acbboyz84]

Dudes saying Bron isnt a scorer but KD got 1 50 point game under his belt and it was this year in double overtime I think??

Melo never dropped 55 did he???

Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.

Everybody always wants to blow the greats for our past. I don't wanna hear anybody in here saying magic is a WAY better passer than Lebron. Unless you are in your 40s or have watched magic's career from 79-90 then you cant comment on Magic being WAY greater of a passer than Lebron...

Lebron is an elite shooter. The numbers speak for themselves. He is the most dangerous offensive player on the planet. This isnt 2008 when he still struggled to make shots. Players are playing D right up on him. They don't give him the space he used to get. Hence why the bulls got so many illegal defenses called against them. They played him straight up with noah or boozer waiting in the paint... "I watch the games"

I don't get how we keep hearing melo and kobe are much better shooters and elite shooters but bron isnt? Are you guys basically calling Kobe and Melo dumb/******ed players since they take contested shots or try to shoot out of double teams instead of doing the logical/smart thing to do and pass to an NBA player who is wide open at the moment?


Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"

Wow that's some d******* i've seen. Kobe and Melo are not stupid because they shoot contested shots. They can make those shots because they have the ability to do so. That's why they're lethal scorers. A lethal scorer is one who can make all kind of shots under any kind of defense.

Lebron is not one of those scorers.


And there are video clips and highlights of Magics passing/assists everywhere on youtube. You don't have to be over 40 to claim that you saw Magic passing ability.

Here's a clip for you to see. Lebron wish he can diss the ball like Magic. Your clip of Lebron top assist is a joke compare to this.

 

[acbboyz84]

Lol at this dude claiming Lebron as the most lethal offensive player on the planet. Dude you probably suck at playing basketball if you think Lebron is the most lethal offensive player lmao.

Like Lebron can shoot from distance like Curry, score in traffic like Rose or fadeawa/ jab steps like MJ/Dirk/Kobe.

****

 

[ohmygosher]

Dudes saying Bron isnt a scorer but KD got 1 50 point game under his belt and it was this year in double overtime I think??

Melo never dropped 55 did he???

Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.

Everybody always wants to blow the greats for our past. I don't wanna hear anybody in here saying magic is a WAY better passer than Lebron. Unless you are in your 40s or have watched magic's career from 79-90 then you cant comment on Magic being WAY greater of a passer than Lebron...

Lebron is an elite shooter. The numbers speak for themselves. He is the most dangerous offensive player on the planet. This isnt 2008 when he still struggled to make shots. Players are playing D right up on him. They don't give him the space he used to get. Hence why the bulls got so many illegal defenses called against them. They played him straight up with noah or boozer waiting in the paint... "I watch the games"

I don't get how we keep hearing melo and kobe are much better shooters and elite shooters but bron isnt? Are you guys basically calling Kobe and Melo dumb/******ed players since they take contested shots or try to shoot out of double teams instead of doing the logical/smart thing to do and pass to an NBA player who is wide open at the moment?


Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"

You spent 20 racks on Lebrons. You're opinion is null and void.

Fan boys quick to put their capes on.

 

[lilpennymagicfan]

Lol at this dude claiming Lebron as the most lethal offensive player on the planet. Dude you probably suck at playing basketball if you think Lebron is the most lethal offensive player lmao.

Like Lebron can shoot from distance like Curry, score in traffic like Rose or fadeawa/ jab steps like MJ/Dirk/Kobe.

****

Im not saying he got better footwork than kobe, better fade away than dirk, better jumper than kd. But collectively for as efficient as lebron is as a shooter or going to the basket, Lebron takes less shots than kobe, melo, and kd per game but shoots a better %. So if we have Lebron take 22-24 shots a game, hes making 56% from the field and 70% from the line. He could basically be the leading scorer every year. Am I wrong?

 

[lilpennymagicfan]

You spent 20 racks on Lebrons. You're opinion is null and void.

Fan boys quick to put their capes on.

That logic is why most people can't respect your opinion and many others in here. Because I own 150 pairs of Lebrons shoes that makes my opinion on his basketball skills null and void?

I spent about 100k on Jordan's shoes/products and Jordan never was a top 10 favorite player of mine? By me saying hes the greatest player does that make my opinion null and void as well?

 

[mister friendly]

They colluded to achieve it

All of them should've took their fair market value to play for Heat.

You don't know what 'colluded' means, and I mean both the dictionary definition, and the NBA's wording.

You don't know what 'colluded' means, and I mean both the dictionary definition, and the NBA's wording.

Dude just threw the word out there.

I guess these people don't know what the word colluded means either but this boy does?


http://archive.mises.org/12822/nba-star-explains-the-economics-of-collusion/

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5229374

Miami Heat player Dwayne Wade becomes a free agent on July 1. So does LeBron James of the Cleveland Cavaliers, Joe Johnson of the Atlanta Hawks, and Chris Bosh of the Toronto Raptors. The four men are the cream of the 2010 NBA free agent crop. And according to Wade (via the Chicago Tribune), they plan to consult one another about their decisions on where to sign:

Wade said he’s not sure when the top free agents will discuss their respective plans, though they have spoken informally in the past.

“(Free agency) has been three years coming,” Wade said. “We’ve discussed it prematurely, at different times. (But) you don’t know what guys are thinking and where they’re going. I think we’ll all sit down, and before one of us makes a decision, all of us will have spoken to each other and (listened to the) thinking.

“A lot of decisions (will be based on) what other players are willing to do and what other guys want to do. So it’s not just a ‘me’ situation here. We all have to look and see what each other is thinking.”
There’s nothing remarkable about Wade’s statements — except that he’s admitting to a felony punishable by a $1 million fine and ten years imprisonment. That’s the “max contract” for price fixing these days. And what Wade describes is in fact an illegal price-fixing cartel.

Scoff if you will, but if four firms in any industry meet to discuss what customers they plan to negotiate with, the Justice Department and the FBI will come barging in with guns blazing. Heck, as former Congressman Tom Campbell once told a House committee, if “three eye doctors in Elgin, Illinois” have lunch to discuss a proposed HMO contract, they’ll get a letter from the Federal Trade Commission advising them that said lunch violated the Sherman Act.

Campbell was not exaggerating. The FTC has prosecuted over 18,000 physicians during the past decade for essentially doing what Dwayne Wade wants to do with his fellow All-Star players — sit down and discuss potential contract offers. Former Commissioner Thomas Leary explained that it was illegal for physicians to even discuss their contract situations with one another because, “Their prime focus is on using negotiations and contracts for the purpose of enhancing their bargaining power.” And that would be a bad thing in Antitrust World; sellers are never allowed to improve their bargaining power without the federal government’s consent.

Most “price fixing” cartels are in fact little more then discussions. There are no contracts, as those would be unenforceable in government courts. An exchange of information — what contracts do you plan to bid on, what do prices do you expect to charge next year, etc. — can be mutually beneficial to “competing” firms without the need for more formal arrangements. As Wade said, “A lot of decisions (will be based on) what other players are willing to do and what other guys want to do … We all have to look and see what each other is thinking.”

Again, there’s nothing controversial in Wade’s statement. But contrast it with a press release issued by the Justice Department’s Antitrust Division announcing a coerced guilty plea from an Iowa concrete executive, Kent Stewart:

According to the charge, Stewart participated in a conspiracy in which he engaged in discussions concerning project bids for sales of ready-mix concrete in Iowa, submitted rigged bids at collusive and noncompetitive prices and accepted payment for sales of ready-mix concrete at collusive and noncompetitive prices.
Now how would this differ from Wade, LeBron James, and Chris Bosh having a discussion, agreeing they’ll all sign with the Chicago Bulls — or maybe Bosh agrees to sign with a Western Conference team so as not to compete directly against Wade and James in Chicago — and refusing to entertain offers from any other teams? This would be a case where the market participants (a) engaged in discussions concerning bids from NBA teams, (b) submitting rigged bids at “collusive and noncompetitive prices,” and ultimately (c) accepting contracts at said prices.

And although price fixing is a per se antitrust violation — meaning it’s unnecessary to show there’s any monopoly or exercise of “market power,” as in a merger case — the antitrust violation is arguably worse in the basketball players’ case then in the Stewart case cited above. Stewart colluded on the sale of concrete in Iowa City; that’s not even interstate commerce. Collusion by three or four NBA All-Stars, however, can fundamentally alter the fortunes of several teams and cities, not to mention the league’s worldwide business.

Obviously nobody expects the Justice Department to prosecute Wade or his fellow players for violating the Sherman Act. That goes against the “business model” of the Antitrust Division, which is to prey on individuals, like Kent Stewart, outside the public eye who won’t mount a defense. Prosecuting NBA players for collusion would bring unwelcome public and press scrutiny. Ideological consistency must yield to preserving the antitrust establishment’s position in the social structure.

The benefit of Wade’s remarks is that they reiterate how commonplace “collusion” is within the marketplace — and how the two are compatible, despite over a century of antitrust propaganda to the contrary. Humans are not interchangeable widgets in a machine; they’re unique individuals with their own subjective preferences. Economic decisions are not made in a vacuum, or by mathematical formula, but within a series of social relationships. When Wade says, “We all have to look and see what each other is thinking,” he’s describing an essential act of economic calculation.

This equally applies to “teams” of individuals, be they a basketball team or a business firm. If one firm chooses to share information with another about its possible business plans, that’s not a violation of anyone’s rights or destructive of marketplace competition — as opposed to the antitrust regulator who imprisons people for sharing information and demands individuals obey a rigid, illogical concept of “competition.”

Did you feel that? Or did the newest paradigm shift in the NBA blow right past you without your picking up the vibration?

These movements can be stealthy, after all. Sometimes they arrive in the subtle form of a new contract clause, an opt-out or no-trade sentence that sets the tone for future superstar negotiations. Sometimes it's simply the height of a money stack that either changes things or changes the way people look at those things.

And then, every once in a while, a person like Dwyane Wade puts it right out there for everyone to see, hear and feel.

LeBron James and Dwyane Wade have played together before, in the Olympics and on All-Star teams.
So did you feel it? Because Wade sure isn't trying to keep the latest shift a secret.

Wade's recent words to the Chicago Tribune, in fact, were as innocuous-sounding as they were enormous. He described the new power structure in a few casual sentences, making the whole thing seem no more significant than a coffee klatch with some buddies at the local Java Joint.

But make no mistake: When Wade talks about sitting down with LeBron James and Joe Johnson (and perhaps Chris Bosh) to discuss free agency and where each of them will wind up playing, he is absolutely suggesting that a tiny handful of elite players could conspire -- that's the familiar use of the word, not the legal -- to determine the future direction of the league.

Moreover, Wade has no problem saying exactly that. Read again his precise words. As Wade told the Tribune's Fred Mitchell, "You don't know what guys are thinking and where they're going. I think we'll all sit down, and before one of us makes a decision, all of us will have spoken to each other and [listened to the] thinking."

The kicker? "A lot of decisions [will be based on] what other players are willing to do and what other guys want to do. So it's not just a 'me' situation here. We all have to look and see what each other is thinking."

Wow. That's your modern-era power grab, that is. That's the top handful of free agents in a supposedly open marketplace conferring about what each of them will do, which is essentially the same as those free agents pooling their bargaining power to leverage decisions around the NBA. If the owners did that outside of a collective bargaining session, they'd have a grievance slapped on their noggins within the hour.

In this case, it's apparently perfectly acceptable. Heck, it even has its roots in a time-honored act.

Be afraid, NBA owners. Be very, very afraid.

There certainly is no news value in the notion that players talk to fellow players about their futures. They've only been doing it since the advent of contracts. More recently, the idea of the stars on an NBA team openly wooing free agents via text, e-mail, voicemail, etc. is so common as to be unremarkable. You'd almost worry if it didn't happen.

Beyond that, the league has no rules to address this sort of thing. David Stern may be able to tell Mark Cuban when to clam up (or at least to tell Cuban how much it's going to cost him to speak), but the commissioner would have a hard time convincing anybody in America that D-Wade can't chat up LeBron about who is going to get his millions where.

But wait: Is this really the future of the NBA? This is collusion, correct? Collusion, pure and simple. What Wade is saying is exactly that: He and the other top players will get together and sort things out, and talk about who is going where. Wade said it: It's not just a "me" situation.

So when did free agency become a collective?

The idea that Wade might be curious about where James is going makes plenty of sense. The idea that Johnson's destination might affect Bosh's destination, or vice versa, is right on. You can construct a few scenarios in which a couple of these guys wind up on the same team; the Knicks and the Nets, to name two, could afford more than one top-tier free agent.


Could a conversation among NBA free agents turn into the kind of backroom deal associated more with robber barons and gangsters?
But those scenarios generally play themselves out on the open market, with no predetermined winner. In an open market, bids come and go unexpectedly. Coaches get moved around. Owners make surprise impassioned pleas. Free agents do strange things.

Not this summer. Not with the Gang of Four on hand. (Wade mentioned James and Johnson, but by several accounts, Bosh will be included in the "meeting.") There is nothing on the record to confirm that one meeting of a bunch of NBA stars is going to completely decide which teams get which players; but on the other hand, you do the math.

Again: If the owners did this, they'd be getting sued yesterday.

Maybe the most remarkable facet of the conversation is how casual Wade makes it all sound. You know, it's a bunch of friends getting together to talk hoops, and what could possibly be controversial about that?

It is not until you parse the words that you realize what's going on, and honestly, what is going on is impressive. It is a transfer of power from owner to player -- and on the players' side, a union within a union. Welcome to the NBA's summer of shift. Seat belts no longer optional.

Mark Kreidler is a longtime contributor to ESPN.com. His most recent book, "Six Good Innings," was named one of the top 10 sports books of 2009 by Booklist. Reach him at [email protected].

And of course you didn't read my first post about the subject.

Are they going to jail or are going to get fined for it? No..... that ship has already set sail.

They got away with through a loophole in the CBA

 

[mister friendly]

Dudes saying Bron isnt a scorer but KD got 1 50 point game under his belt and it was this year in double overtime I think??

Melo never dropped 55 did he???

Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.

Everybody always wants to blow the greats for our past. I don't wanna hear anybody in here saying magic is a WAY better passer than Lebron. Unless you are in your 40s or have watched magic's career from 79-90 then you cant comment on Magic being WAY greater of a passer than Lebron...

Lebron is an elite shooter. The numbers speak for themselves. He is the most dangerous offensive player on the planet. This isnt 2008 when he still struggled to make shots. Players are playing D right up on him. They don't give him the space he used to get. Hence why the bulls got so many illegal defenses called against them. They played him straight up with noah or boozer waiting in the paint... "I watch the games"

I don't get how we keep hearing melo and kobe are much better shooters and elite shooters but bron isnt? Are you guys basically calling Kobe and Melo dumb/******ed players since they take contested shots or try to shoot out of double teams instead of doing the logical/smart thing to do and pass to an NBA player who is wide open at the moment?


Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"

He's not an elite shooter we already established that a couple pages ago.

Buddy you got to come with numbers and facts, you cant just talk out of butt.

 

[ohmygosher]

You spent 20 racks on Lebrons. You're opinion is null and void.

Fan boys quick to put their capes on.

Because I own 150 pairs of Lebrons shoes that makes my opinion on his basketball skills null and void?

Yes.

You don't understand the game of basketball. You are just a Lebron fan boy.

Go find some more YouTube videos to post.

 

[lilpennymagicfan]

Numbers and facts? The numbers and facts were posted on page 7 I believe... It should have shut all of you up already.

But I forgot. You guys "watch the games" Even though you hate Lebron. And all of his shots are standing still and uncontested so they dont matter.