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- Sep 20, 2008
I don't get it.
the IF question. IF Kobe was on the Hornets would he have 5 rings right now?
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I don't get it.
I don't get it.
This is about Lebron tho. If summer 2010 didn't would Lebron still be ringless? This was the question.
They colluded to achieve it
All of them should've took their fair market value to play for Heat.
You don't know what 'colluded' means, and I mean both the dictionary definition, and the NBA's wording.
When comparing his assist totals: The majority of the time he controls the ball for most of the shot clock and he brings the ball up the court very often. Essentially he is playing the role of the point guard, so you can't really be comparing his assist totals to traditional forwards, you should compare them with point guards who play that same role for their team.
Shouldn't around 8 rebounds be expected of a 6'8" 250 lb player who was born with (he didn't work out till the NBA) an incredible vertical and athleticism?
THIS. Lebron and Bosh's exits from Cleveland and Toronto respectively were very similar and you could tell they created a rift within their teams prior to departure.You can't say he made the smart decision to go to Miami and then pretend like they didn't collude to team up. Stop it. They deceived and misled all the GM's in the league when they KNEW they were all ending up in Miami together. They limited competition. It doesn't have to be illegal to be collusion.
Now they didn't collude and team up? Some real revisionist history.
You can't say he made the smart decision to go to Miami and then pretend like they didn't collude to team up. Stop it. They deceived and misled all the GM's in the league when they KNEW they were all ending up in Miami together. They limited competition. It doesn't have to be illegal to be collusion.
So wade wasn't an intermediary between lebron and pat Riley?
Never said it wasn't nice. I was just pointing out how unfair it is to compare Lebron to forwards for his assist totals and how many rebounds he gets for a guy who brings the ball up the court.Because you expect it of him doesn't mean it ain't nice. I expect Curry to make damn near all his 3s doesn't make it an average feat.
Now they didn't collude and team up? Some real revisionist history.
You can't say he made the smart decision to go to Miami and then pretend like they didn't collude to team up. Stop it. They deceived and misled all the GM's in the league when they KNEW they were all ending up in Miami together. They limited competition. It doesn't have to be illegal to be collusion.
So wade wasn't an intermediary between lebron and pat Riley?
Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.
Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"
Dudes saying Bron isnt a scorer but KD got 1 50 point game under his belt and it was this year in double overtime I think??
Melo never dropped 55 did he???
Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.
Everybody always wants to blow the greats for our past. I don't wanna hear anybody in here saying magic is a WAY better passer than Lebron. Unless you are in your 40s or have watched magic's career from 79-90 then you cant comment on Magic being WAY greater of a passer than Lebron...
Lebron is an elite shooter. The numbers speak for themselves. He is the most dangerous offensive player on the planet. This isnt 2008 when he still struggled to make shots. Players are playing D right up on him. They don't give him the space he used to get. Hence why the bulls got so many illegal defenses called against them. They played him straight up with noah or boozer waiting in the paint... "I watch the games"
I don't get how we keep hearing melo and kobe are much better shooters and elite shooters but bron isnt? Are you guys basically calling Kobe and Melo dumb/******ed players since they take contested shots or try to shoot out of double teams instead of doing the logical/smart thing to do and pass to an NBA player who is wide open at the moment?
Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"
Dudes saying Bron isnt a scorer but KD got 1 50 point game under his belt and it was this year in double overtime I think??
Melo never dropped 55 did he???
Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.
Everybody always wants to blow the greats for our past. I don't wanna hear anybody in here saying magic is a WAY better passer than Lebron. Unless you are in your 40s or have watched magic's career from 79-90 then you cant comment on Magic being WAY greater of a passer than Lebron...
Lebron is an elite shooter. The numbers speak for themselves. He is the most dangerous offensive player on the planet. This isnt 2008 when he still struggled to make shots. Players are playing D right up on him. They don't give him the space he used to get. Hence why the bulls got so many illegal defenses called against them. They played him straight up with noah or boozer waiting in the paint... "I watch the games"
I don't get how we keep hearing melo and kobe are much better shooters and elite shooters but bron isnt? Are you guys basically calling Kobe and Melo dumb/******ed players since they take contested shots or try to shoot out of double teams instead of doing the logical/smart thing to do and pass to an NBA player who is wide open at the moment?
Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"
Lol at this dude claiming Lebron as the most lethal offensive player on the planet. Dude you probably suck at playing basketball if you think Lebron is the most lethal offensive player lmao.
Like Lebron can shoot from distance like Curry, score in traffic like Rose or fadeawa/ jab steps like MJ/Dirk/Kobe.
****
You spent 20 racks on Lebrons. You're opinion is null and void.
Fan boys quick to put their capes on.
They colluded to achieve it
All of them should've took their fair market value to play for Heat.
You don't know what 'colluded' means, and I mean both the dictionary definition, and the NBA's wording.
You don't know what 'colluded' means, and I mean both the dictionary definition, and the NBA's wording.
Dude just threw the word out there.
Miami Heat player Dwayne Wade becomes a free agent on July 1. So does LeBron James of the Cleveland Cavaliers, Joe Johnson of the Atlanta Hawks, and Chris Bosh of the Toronto Raptors. The four men are the cream of the 2010 NBA free agent crop. And according to Wade (via the Chicago Tribune), they plan to consult one another about their decisions on where to sign:
Wade said he’s not sure when the top free agents will discuss their respective plans, though they have spoken informally in the past.
“(Free agency) has been three years coming,” Wade said. “We’ve discussed it prematurely, at different times. (But) you don’t know what guys are thinking and where they’re going. I think we’ll all sit down, and before one of us makes a decision, all of us will have spoken to each other and (listened to the) thinking.
“A lot of decisions (will be based on) what other players are willing to do and what other guys want to do. So it’s not just a ‘me’ situation here. We all have to look and see what each other is thinking.”
There’s nothing remarkable about Wade’s statements — except that he’s admitting to a felony punishable by a $1 million fine and ten years imprisonment. That’s the “max contract” for price fixing these days. And what Wade describes is in fact an illegal price-fixing cartel.
Scoff if you will, but if four firms in any industry meet to discuss what customers they plan to negotiate with, the Justice Department and the FBI will come barging in with guns blazing. Heck, as former Congressman Tom Campbell once told a House committee, if “three eye doctors in Elgin, Illinois” have lunch to discuss a proposed HMO contract, they’ll get a letter from the Federal Trade Commission advising them that said lunch violated the Sherman Act.
Campbell was not exaggerating. The FTC has prosecuted over 18,000 physicians during the past decade for essentially doing what Dwayne Wade wants to do with his fellow All-Star players — sit down and discuss potential contract offers. Former Commissioner Thomas Leary explained that it was illegal for physicians to even discuss their contract situations with one another because, “Their prime focus is on using negotiations and contracts for the purpose of enhancing their bargaining power.” And that would be a bad thing in Antitrust World; sellers are never allowed to improve their bargaining power without the federal government’s consent.
Most “price fixing” cartels are in fact little more then discussions. There are no contracts, as those would be unenforceable in government courts. An exchange of information — what contracts do you plan to bid on, what do prices do you expect to charge next year, etc. — can be mutually beneficial to “competing” firms without the need for more formal arrangements. As Wade said, “A lot of decisions (will be based on) what other players are willing to do and what other guys want to do … We all have to look and see what each other is thinking.”
Again, there’s nothing controversial in Wade’s statement. But contrast it with a press release issued by the Justice Department’s Antitrust Division announcing a coerced guilty plea from an Iowa concrete executive, Kent Stewart:
According to the charge, Stewart participated in a conspiracy in which he engaged in discussions concerning project bids for sales of ready-mix concrete in Iowa, submitted rigged bids at collusive and noncompetitive prices and accepted payment for sales of ready-mix concrete at collusive and noncompetitive prices.
Now how would this differ from Wade, LeBron James, and Chris Bosh having a discussion, agreeing they’ll all sign with the Chicago Bulls — or maybe Bosh agrees to sign with a Western Conference team so as not to compete directly against Wade and James in Chicago — and refusing to entertain offers from any other teams? This would be a case where the market participants (a) engaged in discussions concerning bids from NBA teams, (b) submitting rigged bids at “collusive and noncompetitive prices,” and ultimately (c) accepting contracts at said prices.
And although price fixing is a per se antitrust violation — meaning it’s unnecessary to show there’s any monopoly or exercise of “market power,” as in a merger case — the antitrust violation is arguably worse in the basketball players’ case then in the Stewart case cited above. Stewart colluded on the sale of concrete in Iowa City; that’s not even interstate commerce. Collusion by three or four NBA All-Stars, however, can fundamentally alter the fortunes of several teams and cities, not to mention the league’s worldwide business.
Obviously nobody expects the Justice Department to prosecute Wade or his fellow players for violating the Sherman Act. That goes against the “business model” of the Antitrust Division, which is to prey on individuals, like Kent Stewart, outside the public eye who won’t mount a defense. Prosecuting NBA players for collusion would bring unwelcome public and press scrutiny. Ideological consistency must yield to preserving the antitrust establishment’s position in the social structure.
The benefit of Wade’s remarks is that they reiterate how commonplace “collusion” is within the marketplace — and how the two are compatible, despite over a century of antitrust propaganda to the contrary. Humans are not interchangeable widgets in a machine; they’re unique individuals with their own subjective preferences. Economic decisions are not made in a vacuum, or by mathematical formula, but within a series of social relationships. When Wade says, “We all have to look and see what each other is thinking,” he’s describing an essential act of economic calculation.
This equally applies to “teams” of individuals, be they a basketball team or a business firm. If one firm chooses to share information with another about its possible business plans, that’s not a violation of anyone’s rights or destructive of marketplace competition — as opposed to the antitrust regulator who imprisons people for sharing information and demands individuals obey a rigid, illogical concept of “competition.”
Did you feel that? Or did the newest paradigm shift in the NBA blow right past you without your picking up the vibration?
These movements can be stealthy, after all. Sometimes they arrive in the subtle form of a new contract clause, an opt-out or no-trade sentence that sets the tone for future superstar negotiations. Sometimes it's simply the height of a money stack that either changes things or changes the way people look at those things.
And then, every once in a while, a person like Dwyane Wade puts it right out there for everyone to see, hear and feel.
LeBron James and Dwyane Wade have played together before, in the Olympics and on All-Star teams.
So did you feel it? Because Wade sure isn't trying to keep the latest shift a secret.
Wade's recent words to the Chicago Tribune, in fact, were as innocuous-sounding as they were enormous. He described the new power structure in a few casual sentences, making the whole thing seem no more significant than a coffee klatch with some buddies at the local Java Joint.
But make no mistake: When Wade talks about sitting down with LeBron James and Joe Johnson (and perhaps Chris Bosh) to discuss free agency and where each of them will wind up playing, he is absolutely suggesting that a tiny handful of elite players could conspire -- that's the familiar use of the word, not the legal -- to determine the future direction of the league.
Moreover, Wade has no problem saying exactly that. Read again his precise words. As Wade told the Tribune's Fred Mitchell, "You don't know what guys are thinking and where they're going. I think we'll all sit down, and before one of us makes a decision, all of us will have spoken to each other and [listened to the] thinking."
The kicker? "A lot of decisions [will be based on] what other players are willing to do and what other guys want to do. So it's not just a 'me' situation here. We all have to look and see what each other is thinking."
Wow. That's your modern-era power grab, that is. That's the top handful of free agents in a supposedly open marketplace conferring about what each of them will do, which is essentially the same as those free agents pooling their bargaining power to leverage decisions around the NBA. If the owners did that outside of a collective bargaining session, they'd have a grievance slapped on their noggins within the hour.
In this case, it's apparently perfectly acceptable. Heck, it even has its roots in a time-honored act.
Be afraid, NBA owners. Be very, very afraid.
There certainly is no news value in the notion that players talk to fellow players about their futures. They've only been doing it since the advent of contracts. More recently, the idea of the stars on an NBA team openly wooing free agents via text, e-mail, voicemail, etc. is so common as to be unremarkable. You'd almost worry if it didn't happen.
Beyond that, the league has no rules to address this sort of thing. David Stern may be able to tell Mark Cuban when to clam up (or at least to tell Cuban how much it's going to cost him to speak), but the commissioner would have a hard time convincing anybody in America that D-Wade can't chat up LeBron about who is going to get his millions where.
But wait: Is this really the future of the NBA? This is collusion, correct? Collusion, pure and simple. What Wade is saying is exactly that: He and the other top players will get together and sort things out, and talk about who is going where. Wade said it: It's not just a "me" situation.
So when did free agency become a collective?
The idea that Wade might be curious about where James is going makes plenty of sense. The idea that Johnson's destination might affect Bosh's destination, or vice versa, is right on. You can construct a few scenarios in which a couple of these guys wind up on the same team; the Knicks and the Nets, to name two, could afford more than one top-tier free agent.
Could a conversation among NBA free agents turn into the kind of backroom deal associated more with robber barons and gangsters?
But those scenarios generally play themselves out on the open market, with no predetermined winner. In an open market, bids come and go unexpectedly. Coaches get moved around. Owners make surprise impassioned pleas. Free agents do strange things.
Not this summer. Not with the Gang of Four on hand. (Wade mentioned James and Johnson, but by several accounts, Bosh will be included in the "meeting.") There is nothing on the record to confirm that one meeting of a bunch of NBA stars is going to completely decide which teams get which players; but on the other hand, you do the math.
Again: If the owners did this, they'd be getting sued yesterday.
Maybe the most remarkable facet of the conversation is how casual Wade makes it all sound. You know, it's a bunch of friends getting together to talk hoops, and what could possibly be controversial about that?
It is not until you parse the words that you realize what's going on, and honestly, what is going on is impressive. It is a transfer of power from owner to player -- and on the players' side, a union within a union. Welcome to the NBA's summer of shift. Seat belts no longer optional.
Mark Kreidler is a longtime contributor to ESPN.com. His most recent book, "Six Good Innings," was named one of the top 10 sports books of 2009 by Booklist. Reach him at [email protected].
Dudes saying Bron isnt a scorer but KD got 1 50 point game under his belt and it was this year in double overtime I think??
Melo never dropped 55 did he???
Now lebron's assists are over rated and only makes passes to the 3 point shooters because the defense lets him???? Review the video at the bottom. 10 minutes of Lebrons best assists.
Everybody always wants to blow the greats for our past. I don't wanna hear anybody in here saying magic is a WAY better passer than Lebron. Unless you are in your 40s or have watched magic's career from 79-90 then you cant comment on Magic being WAY greater of a passer than Lebron...
Lebron is an elite shooter. The numbers speak for themselves. He is the most dangerous offensive player on the planet. This isnt 2008 when he still struggled to make shots. Players are playing D right up on him. They don't give him the space he used to get. Hence why the bulls got so many illegal defenses called against them. They played him straight up with noah or boozer waiting in the paint... "I watch the games"
I don't get how we keep hearing melo and kobe are much better shooters and elite shooters but bron isnt? Are you guys basically calling Kobe and Melo dumb/******ed players since they take contested shots or try to shoot out of double teams instead of doing the logical/smart thing to do and pass to an NBA player who is wide open at the moment?
Somebody please imbed this. "Watch the games"
You spent 20 racks on Lebrons. You're opinion is null and void.
Fan boys quick to put their capes on.
Because I own 150 pairs of Lebrons shoes that makes my opinion on his basketball skills null and void?