let this thread die (NYK)

[airmaxpenny1]

This team reeks of Isiaah Thomas.  We tried a shortcut to success through getting Bron and missed.  Instead of folding our cards we went all-in with a pair of nine's.  It scares me to think how bad this team will be a few years down the line.

And we don't even have an amnesty clause

 

[ruffrydya08]

IMO its a bit not fair to throw Melo under the bus yet. We all agree that this team could use a new approach on the coaching end. If this is still going on under whoever comes after Pringles, than maybe I'll side with all the Melo haters. But IMO if the coaching isn't putting the players in positions to succeed, it's hard to jump on them. Certainly I see where people get mad with Melo, TD, Stat, but they're running a system that they clearly don't respect or trust at this point.

 

[duba169]

Melo is the onlyvreally good player in the team

Amare looked so good cuz centers were guarding him I guess

 

[goldenchild9]

I don't think the team is trash though.

All we really need is a legit backcourt and a backup center.

Its really all about the coaching and the culture imo.

Let Jerry Sloan, Rick Adelman or Phil Jackson coach this team and I guarantee we would be top 4/5 in the East.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

@ Some of the comments in here. Relax. Amar'e and Melo aren't overrated, they just haven't been able to get on the same page yet.

Amar'e will break out of the funk he's in when he stops trying to be Dirk and when we have an actual point guard running the offense. Step back from the ledge. We'll be fine. Our main issues, in my opinion, are coaching and the PG situation. Those two things are HUGE, so of course were going to struggle with such a lack of leadership on the court AND on the sideline.

Deep breath, bros. we've endured much worse stretches over the past decade. We'll be fine.

 

[mronegative]

[h4]Knocks On Knicks Grow Louder[/h4]

By Jared Zwerling
ESPNNewYork.com
Archive

NEW YORK -- Rewind to Nov. 14, 2010. It was early in the NBA season, and the Knicks had just lost their fifth game in a row -- this time to the Rockets, 104-96 at Madison Square Garden. After the game, their leader, power forward Amare Stoudemire, called out his teammates.

"I don't understand why we're not playing with the urgency," a visibly dejected Stoudemire said at the time. "I'm not used to that. We don't have that sense of urgency. It's almost as if it doesn't matter. That's something I'm not used to."

What happened next? The Knicks went on to win 13 of 15.

Fast forward to Wednesday night at the Garden, where the Bobcats were victorious 118-110. While it was only the Knicks' second straight loss, they fell to 2-4 on the season. After the game, it was Stoudemire's superstar sidekick, small forward Carmelo Anthony, going on the offensive.

"I don't think the trust factor is there for us as a team," he said. "We don't have no choice but to be committed. We just have to build that trust factor for everybody."

Will that spark a win streak similar to that at the start of last season? Here's what the Knick will have to overcome:

On offense, the numbers from the starting five indicate they're producing. Going into Wednesday night, they were averaging 75.8 points per game, which put them third best in the league. The issue is that they've been scoring mostly individually. It's been too much Anthony and not enough team basketball.

Even after Monday night's 90-85 loss to the Raptors, rookie center Josh Harrellson said film sessions showed the team tends to stand around and watch Melo go to work in isolation. He excels in that category, but that pattern will prevent the team from finding a consistent flow in the offense. Unfortunately, as good as starting point guard Toney Douglas is as a shooter -- he's draining two 3-pointers per game this season -- he's not a facilitator. Therefore, the team's pick-and-roll game, for which Knicks coach Mike D'Antoni is known, has dried up like a prune. D'Antoni has been using Anthony occasionally as his point forward, but he's not the long-term solution to rhythmic problems.

Hopefully Baron Davis is healthy soon to take over Douglas' duties, or the ball movement will continue to stutter. Case in point: The Knicks are averaging only 17.4 assists per game -- tied for fifth worst in the league with the Memphis Grizzlies. Davis will especially help Tyson Chandler and Stoudemire in the pick-and-roll, where he's become a nonfactor. He's shooting more shots from 16 to 23 feet (6.3 attempts; 26 percent) than at the rim (3.7 attempts), where he's 63.6 percent. Previously, Stoudemire played with a true point guard in Steve Nash (in Phoenix) and Raymond Felton (in New York last season). Douglas is neither.

The Knicks' bench is also a concern, as it is averaging 26.9 points per game -- the worst mark in the league entering Wednesday. But that should change come February, when Davis is expected to return from a herniated disc in his back. That will allow Douglas to be a significant spark in the second unit, along with rookie combo guard Iman Shumpert, who's already surpassing expectations. In two games -- he missed four with a sprained right MCL -- he's averaging 14.5 points per game.

Defensively, the impact of Mike Woodson, who was hired in the offseason as an assistant coach to teach just that, still remains to be seen. After the Bobcats game, different reasons were expressed. A shortened training camp, poor rotations, lack of communication, still learning the defensive schemes. All those factors were obvious Wednesday night as the Bobcats found wide-open pockets in transition and from the backside. The Knicks had no hands in shooters' faces nor body-up ball hawking.

Douglas said it best: "It's a mentality that we've just got to have. There are no excuses for us not to come out in the first half ready to play on the defensive end. Offense will be there; I'm not worried about that. We've just got to stop teams. We can't keep giving games away like this. We have to play for something."

That mentality comes in the form of energy. Before Wednesday night's game, Shumpert said the team needed more of that, and he displayed those extra bursts on both sides of the ball. In the NBA, it's all about instincts and split seconds, and the Knicks right now are slow reactors. From watching Melo to being a step slow on defense, they better get after it and work better as a team.

If the Knicks are going to facilitate -- literally -- a winning streak like they did in 2010, Friday is a great place to start. They're playing the 0-6 Wizards on the road and then the 2-4 Pistons on Saturday.

Still, the Knicks will have short-term issues, and some of them will be corrected only with Davis as the starting point guard. The question is: Can his recurring injuries leave him alone? The real solution might come in this summer's free agency, when the consistently healthy Nash is available and could reunite with Stoudemire. And, of course, a focused commitment to defense. Without that, all of the Knicks players' talk of championship will go to waste.

 

[that dude173]

Originally Posted by HarlemToTheBronx

@ Some of the comments in here. Relax. Amar'e and Melo aren't overrated, they just haven't been able to get on the same page yet.

Amar'e will break out of the funk he's in when he stops trying to be Dirk and when we have an actual point guard running the offense. Step back from the ledge. We'll be fine. Our main issues, in my opinion, are coaching and the PG situation. Those two things are HUGE, so of course were going to struggle with such a lack of leadership on the court AND on the sideline.

Deep breath, bros. we've endured much worse stretches over the past decade. We'll be fine.

Word. These cats already talking about cutting Amare or Melo. Like really? Y'all the same people that be praising em when amare posterizes somebody and melo takes over in the 4th and wins it. There's gnna be good and bad, we don't have a good PG and a good coach, which is essential. Patience.

 

[mgrand15]

Stern really hooked you guys up with the schedule. Knicks got to have the easiest schedule in the league through the first 10 games.

Celtics (without Pierce), Lakers (no Bynum), Warriors, Kings, Raptors, Bobcats, Wizards, Pistons, Bobcats, Sixers.

3 playoff teams with 2 of them missing key pieces. 6 games vs. really bad teams. 1 game vs. a decent team. Yall need to take advantage and pick it up after this slow start. Next 3 games should be easy Ws.

 

[cdonwashisname]

If you still think Toney is the main problem then you are clearly not watching. We scored 100 pts

The problem is we gave up 120 to the worst shooting team in the league. Some of it was luck. Some of it was terrible. Mullen getting so many open looks was ridiculous.

They probably need to go to a basic 2-3 zone with shrump and Doug at the top. Just so they can hide A'mare who looks like he can't move lateral.

It's sad to see that Fields can't even play defense anymore. Walker is better than him. Balkman bring more value to the team

 

[lovesit]

Lol. So now Amare was never good and Melo is overrated?

I know a lot of us are a bunch of disgruntled Knicks fans right now but plz just step away from the computer for a bit.

 

[GaBeGRaMz]

Too much fictional life in here.

 

[|A-Man|]

Jared Zwerling: 'Antoni: Shumpert may start on Friday - Knicks Blog - ESPN New York http://es.pn/A0pnJo 

Howard Beck: Shumpert practiced today, no issues with knee, and will be back in rotation Friday at Washington. 

Jared Zwerling: Iman Shumpert could be inserted into the starting lineup as early as tomorrow against the Wizards. 

Marc Berman: 'Antoni says considering starting Shumpert Friday in Wash but wouldn't say PG or SG.

Dude is scrambling for any type of help for the offense. I don't mind Shump starting but now our 2nd unit went from terrible to turrible.

If you still think Toney is the main problem then you are clearly not watching.
TD will always be a problem. The only solution is getting rid of him. We didn't score 100+ because Toney suddenly knows how to run an offense. We scored a 100+ because Cha plays horrible defense. Lets not act like Melo didn't score 22 in the 4th quarter.

http://twitter.com/HowardBeckNYT

Howard Beck: 'Antoni: "We don’t go into a game saying we’re going to switch everything. Only in emergencies. And there was too many emergencies." 

Howard Beck: Asked D'Antoni about Knicks switching all the time on defense. He said that's not the plan. Happened a lot because of other breakdowns.


Howard Beck: Last time Knicks ranked in top half of league in def efficiency was in 2003-4, under Chaney/Williams/Wilkens. They were 14th. 


Howard Beck: Fun fact, Part 2: Believe it or not, the two seasons they ranked highest in def rating (23rd), were in 2008-9 and 2010-11, under D'Antoni. 


Howard Beck: Fun fact, Part 1: Knicks were 23rd or worse in defensive efficiency every season from 2004-5 through 2010-11, under four different coaches.


Tommy Dee: not to overstate it but #knicks inability to communicate on screens and autoswitching on wing screens have been common place for 4 years.


Tommy Dee: Their Defensive Switching Schemes Seems to Not Have Changed Much http://www.theknicksblog.com/2012/0… #knicks


http://twitter.com/search?q=#knicks
Like I've been saying this roster for the most part is garbage.

 

[10027]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

Originally Posted by throwback1718

Stat wasn't looking this bad with Phx at ALL. Like remember when stat led the league in 4th quarter ppg last season?
Remember when he was 2nd in scoring for a good while? Remember when he was a candidate for MVP?

Like wth happened? IM CONFUSED! I know ray felton was here but defensively, he was different. Now he plays with the coordination of Kwame Brown with the Lakers.

I'm losing patience

Remember when we hadn't yet gutted our team for Carmelo?
..

I was okay with giving it all up for a 'star'. now, I'm not so sure. I mean, the team was 2 games above .500 before his arrival and is 4 games under .500 since then (8 if you'd like to include the sweep). I'm not putting it on him, but if everyone else is getting thrown under the bus while Melo gets to drive it..well, I'm not sure that's fair. 

QFT 100%!!!
With that said I've always been a D'antoni defender but we need a new coach for this team.  His style just doesn't fit.  The offensive pieces don't fit together at all so it will have to be someone innovative (or a Mike Brown type who is willing to play an ugly halfcourt offense and win on D)

 

[maxelite]

Coaching makes the role players better. People say the roster is garbage, so how is Chicago so successful? Their roster is filled with role players. It's about putting role players in positions to succeed and contribute. D'Antoni can't do that unless you're a 3 point shooting big man. It's annoying.
 
The main problem is coaching. They don't enforce rebounding or defense and so no one is held accountable for it. All a reflection of the coach.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

We'll be good as soon as we get our defensive stopper Jared Jeffries back.

 

[big j 33]

There's a difference between being irrational and prisoners of the moment, compared to recognizing the flaws of this team and our star players (that have always been present in their career). There will be plenty of fans overreacting to the struggles, just the same as there was/will be plenty of fans who love seeing Melo or Amare dominate in the 4th quarter.. yet forget the other flaws in their game.
There's a lot of things going wrong at the moment, some of that should be corrected with more time together and players getting healthy. However, there are also some issues that won't be fixed immediately.. such as our coach, our two star players not complimenting each other that well and weak areas of their game, our subpar bench, etc.

Knicks fans are certainly very emotional and quick to make judgments.. call it passion if you want, but fans booing when Douglas came in for Iman probably doesn't help the confidence of our point guard who seems very nervous. Compare that to OKC's fans who chanted Westbrook's name when he was at the foul line after he struggled in the Dallas game.

 

[big j 33]

Originally Posted by MaxElite

Coaching makes the role players better. People say the roster is garbage, so how is Chicago so successful? Their roster is filled with role players. It's about putting role players in positions to succeed and contribute. D'Antoni can't do that unless you're a 3 point shooting big man. It's annoying.
 
The main problem is coaching. They don't enforce rebounding or defense and so no one is held accountable for it. All a reflection of the coach.

All of their starters deserve to be starters, and a few of their bench players would start on other teams. Their role players actually have roles that they're good at. I'm not making excuses for D'Antoni, but part of the blame needs to be put on our owner and GMs. One of the risks of making the Melo deal was pledging so much of your cap to two players, which makes signing these role players harder. 
A lot of people assumed "the players will be lining up to play for us", yeah well that didn't really work out.

 

[|A-Man|]

Originally Posted by MaxElite

Coaching makes the role players better. People say the roster is garbage, so how is Chicago so successful? Their roster is filled with role players. It's about putting role players in positions to succeed and contribute. D'Antoni can't do that unless you're a 3 point shooting big man. It's annoying.
 
The main problem is coaching. They don't enforce rebounding or defense and so no one is held accountable for it. All a reflection of the coach.

Not garbage role players though. That team is actually deep. They have guys who all have a role when it comes to scoring, all the other role players are focused on defense more than anything else.

I don't see what coaching is out there that makes Bibby, Jeffries, Balkman, Walker, TD, etc. better. Those are not role players, those are bums. None of them are athletic. We got guys who aren't good one on one defenders and at best are just average on offense (a couple with the 3spot specialty).

I put team defense on coaching but Pringles will never be good at it. Tired of ppl trying to separate the two. We got players on this team that suck at playing ball just as much as D'antoni sucks at being a coach. I'm not buying the idea that another coach will make TD bearable to watch unless that coach doesn't play him at all.

 

[pmatic]

Might want to cover your eyes;

Knicks switch themselves into oblivion

It was written on the white board in the Bobcats’ locker room before Wednesday’s game against the Knicks in New York: “They will switch a lot. Attack mismatches.

 

[ruffrydya08]

For y'all killing TD running the point, I highly doubt Shump is gonna handle it any better. Love the kid but he missed Amar'e diving to the basket at least 3 times that I can remember specifically, probably more too. Not bashing on the kid's ability to grasp the PG position in the future, but IMO there's a big difference between having good enough handle to run the point, and actually seeing the floor like a PG and feeding the ball to other guys in positions where they are comfortable and threats to score. Obviously it has alot to do with coaching though.

I feel like some of y'all are forgetting that Nash has basically been the only PG to ever grasp Pringles system and flourish in it, maybe Felton to some extent. Barbosa is a combo guard so he doesn't count but for all the talk that this is such a PG friendly system, I haven't seen too many guys grasp the system and blossom in it.

 

[big j 33]

Originally Posted by PMatic

Might want to cover your eyes;

When that article popped up on my Google Reader today I was so close to not even looking at it. I just sighed.

 

[maxelite]

I mean whats the difference between Ronnie Brewer and Fields? Or CJ Watson and Douglas? Or Jeffries and Joel Anthony? There really isn't any if you ask me. Im not saying D'Antoni will necessarily make them better players. But at least put them in a rotation where they're contributing somehow and their flaws aren't being as exposed as often as they have been. Doesn't have to be scoring. I mean obviously individual nor team defense is ever going to be taught so I guess my plea is useless.

All Im saying is that a roster can be molded and your weaknesses can be masked until the playoffs start. But this coach can't even do that.

 

[ruffrydya08]

^^^^ Bingo.

 

[|A-Man|]

Originally Posted by RuffRydya08

For y'all killing TD running the point, I highly doubt Shump is gonna handle it any better. Love the kid but he missed Amar'e diving to the basket at least 3 times that I can remember specifically, probably more too. Not bashing on the kid's ability to grasp the PG position in the future, but IMO there's a big difference between having good enough handle to run the point, and actually seeing the floor like a PG and feeding the ball to other guys in positions where they are comfortable and threats to score. Obviously it has alot to do with coaching though.

The enegry and ahtletcism he brings put aside, I would not be surprised with more pt that we find out Shump is a chuck. He's not inclined to creating plays for others and isn't that good of a passer.

BUT he can't be worse than TD. To be clear Pringles has not decided if he'll be starting as the pg or sg.

I feel like some of y'all are forgetting that Nash has basically been the only PG to ever grasp Pringles system and flourish in it, maybe Felton to some extent. Barbosa is a combo guard so he doesn't count but for all the talk that this is such a PG friendly system, I haven't seen too many guys grasp the system and blossom in it.
You kinda just said it though. How many pgs has he had to work with? Nash, Barbosa, Duhon, Felton, Billups, TD. 3 guys who are real pgs. 2 of which didn't even get to stay the full season, the others being combo guards, and Duhon isn't a starter in the NBA. If we had a constant influx of pgs here the past 3 years then I can say Pringles system is a sham as far as it being pg friendly. It's not like the claim was the system makes the pg better, it might inflate stats like some say but TD has not benefitted in that area. Son chucks up 3s and I won't even bother to look up how many assists he has a game.

Only thing left I can say that might help is that the team should be going through 4 hour practices to make up for summer league for the rookies and training camp on every off day.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Originally Posted by MaxElite

I mean whats the difference between Ronnie Brewer and Fields? Or CJ Watson and Douglas? Or Jeffries and Joel Anthony?

Aside from CJ Watson and Douglas there is actually a rather huge difference with all of those.

Fields might be the worst player in the league.  I knew he was a fraud since last year only did well cause of the pace we played.  When your SG's best attribute is rebounding...well there is something wrong there.