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[tupac003]

JC with the pearl foams on today...nice.

 

[BIG LEEMELONE]

Top dawg is gonna be the new jack Nicholson for the next Gen lakers

 

[MVP]

Let's not make this an actual debate... It's one you can't win.

My thing is FIT.. Always has been fit. Similar talent level out of college... Comes down to fit.... Russell was best fit.

Okafor was a bad fit for every prospect we had. So far not only do stats prove that, for him and our guys... But his current situation which is better for him than ours proves it as well.

Fit is never be damned, and you simply take BPA when basketball is 5 guys on a court at time... It isn't baseball, isn't football, where there's so many different things going on, fit can be sacrificed.

Really bad fits in the NBA, is like conquering Mt. Everest.

Unless you want to talk about how hard Russell works, or his eyebrows, or he's "Hollywood," or he "looks" like he doesn't care on the court. You know nonsense things, that either have nothing to do with anything, or just simply have been proven wrong

And there's the smugness and absolute certainty. You don't know how Jah or any of the others would fit with what we have cause they're not here. But I'm not arguing it anymore. Their careers will both play out as well as Mudiay, Zinger etc.

 

[lovehateself]

nance byke !

 

[essential1]

No I can tell you with a reasonable degree of certainty how Jahlil would fit with Randle & Clarkson....

Extremely poorly.. Offensively / Defensively / Pace.....


And there's not one shred of evidence that would prove otherwise... While there are some things you could reasonable transfer from one place to another, and compare.

 

[essential1]

Smart cut to the basket by Randle off a pass.. Sloppy getting there, but was close enough to Kobe that Completely caught LMA slipping with full attention on Kobe.

 

[essential1]

BIG LEEMELONE

Here's my opinion on Clarkson as a starter, been meaning to give you a good explanation of it for a while.. The reason WHY, I don't think he's a starter long term is his defense.. It's really really bad. Not just from an ability standpoint, it's old Kobe terms in level of effort. He reminds me a lot of Lou Will, and very capable scorer.. Better distributor than Lou.. But the defense is what my biggest issue is.. You can't keep a guy like that as a starter, and why Lou who was good enough to be a starter, never was one until Byron.

2nd Units where scoring becomes more important than defense more often than not, especially from 1-3 positions would fit him. What's baffling to me is that Clarkson is bad at defense. He's athletic, he's not undersized like Lou Will is which would explain a lot. He's actually a good size. Especially as a combo guard. So there isn't anything there to show he shouldn't be a passable defender.. But he somehow looks REALLY bad on defense.

Not to say he can't be because I think a defensive coach could figure it out for him. Byron isn't that guy. It's also not to say he can't be a great SG, because he has the tools.. Just as it stands now, defense is what keeps him from being a starter as opposed to your 6th man getting near 30 minutes.

Now away from defense, how he can get himself in the starting lineup for a long time is 3 point shooting. He's currently shooting 34%, a modest improvement from last year's 31%, but not nearly good enough. What he needs is to be 38-39%, makes him a much more dangerous offensive threat, and makes Russell that much more dangerous on the court in P&R. For example, the first 20 games he shot 43% from 3. The next 28 through January, he shot 25%, and in February, he's shooting in the 45% range. So there's an ability for him to be a really good 3 point shooter.


So if he doesn't get better defensively, he becomes a Starting Lineup Asset by consistently being a great 3 point shooter. If he does neither, then he's solid enough to be a starter, but he better serves the team by jump starting the 2nd Units.

But if he becomes a decent defender by using his gifts of size and athleticism, and can knock down the 3 at a above average rate.. Sheesh, there's something really good there.

 

[BIG LEEMELONE]

He does suck at defense. But I don't think it's a lack of effort, I think it's a lack of instruction. He's completely lost on that end. His worst habit is overhelping. He'll do things like drop down and help a big that has an undersized guy and leave his own man a clear path to the rack. Or get stuck on a screen and then just guard nobody in particular. Those are rookie mistakes. From what I've seen the effort is usually there, he's just clueless. But with the way he improved his offense under nash I know he has the iq and I'm confident he'll improve with proper coaching.

Lately he's been doing a better job of anticipating screens and getting around them. He's had moments of good individual defense so it's not all bad. But yea overall he sucks. But he's a second year guy and I think he just passed the 82 games mark as a starter so he has room to grow. Last year he focused on playmaking, this year scoring and I'm guessing/hoping defense is next.

Also the whole team sucks at defense so it's kind of unfair to single him out. It's not like he's the weak link in the chain or anything so it's still kind of tricky to gauge, even with his obvious flaws.

The dip in 3 point shooting coincides with that ankle injury he had against boston. Looks like he's over it now. I was always impressed with how wet and consistent his stroke was so that's reason for me to believe he can keep up the ~40% shooting from deep. I'm really high on him I've just been biting my tongue about it. What I really like is that he has the ability to make tough shots but the discipline not to take them. He's also shown some clutch genes at times. Sky's the limit for him. Top 8 even

 

[Lizakers]

Let's face it, the last draft was pretty week looking back. It's basically KAT and a bunch of players who won't be all stars, DLO and porzingis are probably the next best two

I was really hoping we'd have a superstar with the #2 pick, not just a serviceable 15/7 PG

DLO has so many areas to improve and my fear is that those main areas - mentality, quickness, athleticism, defense- won't get better with practice or court time

He'll get stronger, his jumper will get better, turnovers will be less frequent, he will be smarter......but I don't think those improvements will amount to the superstar elite talent I was hoping for. Those elite players you just see it right away, regardless of age

I think he will improve a lot but his ceiling will be Conley-ish . An above average point guard but never elite

Hope I'm wrong

 

[District of Columbia]

How can you judge his mentality ?

If he fully reaches his potential I think he could easily be a 20-5-5 player in the league with a couple of all star performances. Similar numbers to maybe a Kyle Lowry who started in the ASG this year.

 

[lovehateself]

"Serviceable 15/7 pg"
I'll take that for the next 5-10 years

 

[essential1]

BIG LEEMELONE

We're seeing some of the same things.. Completely forgot the ankle injury, wasn't until Ben Rosales reminded me of it.. That's my fault.. Makes a ton of sense.

Yeah the instruction part is why I want Thibs... Russell, Clarkson & Randle are all so lost on team defensive scheme.. When all 3 have the natural abilities to be okay defenders at the least. Russell has been the best surprise of the 3 because he was supposed to be really bad on defense, and has been able to on occasion show an awareness that his size at PG gives him a clear advantage.

Teach them good habits, good defense.. Make sure he's not playing them 49 minutes a game (he would have to Luol Deng, even if there was no overtime.. Make him run for an extra minute). And have somebody steer his offense a bit.

Even if he's just around to get the guys a bunch of notches on defense, and that's all he can do over a number of years... I'm fine with that.

 

[Lizakers]

Didn't we keep hearing Byron would start Dlo after the break? What the hell?

God I hate Byron. Was really hoping we could see him get 35 min and close games out over the second half of the seadon

 

[essential1]

Let's face it, the last draft was pretty week looking back. It's basically KAT and a bunch of players who won't be all stars, DLO and porzingis are probably the next best two

I was really hoping we'd have a superstar with the #2 pick, not just a serviceable 15/7 PG

DLO has so many areas to improve and my fear is that those main areas - mentality, quickness, athleticism, defense- won't get better with practice or court time

He'll get stronger, his jumper will get better, turnovers will be less frequent, he will be smarter......but I don't think those improvements will amount to the superstar elite talent I was hoping for. Those elite players you just see it right away, regardless of age

I think he will improve a lot but his ceiling will be Conley-ish . An above average point guard but never elite

Hope I'm wrong

I think it's hard to say he's only a serviceable 15/7... From the points perspective.

He's 12/3 in 27 minutes as a rookie...

And you also have to recognize he's getting buried a bit by Byron. Not starting him, not letting him close, sniping him in the media needlessly. Those things, especially the last part really impact guys, and can impact how they play. Also Russell runs the offense Byron wants as well.. He's consistently tried to play within the offense, to everyone's detriment. But when you have the short leash, you got no choice.

Also there has to be some credence to he's a PG of a team with a lot of volume shooters, none of which, who are any good at shooting this year. And Roy Hibbert who is the main guy he P&R with blows at least one easy opportunity a night from him. Even Bass who has played well has weak hands off a pocket pass.

If we were to assume he's playing 36 minutes this season (and he should be close to that, it isn't like we have a bunch of guards.. It's only Russell, Clarkson & Lou Will)...
That's 16-4.8-4.4

He's a strong rebounder, was one of the best 5-6 PGs before he went to the bench, and that number tanked. He's got really good court vision. He's very good off the P&R.

Better talent around, longer leash, more playing time... 7 assists may be right.. But 15 points seems low, it would mean he never even improved even a little bit.

One thing to be thankful for, he compares well to a lot of contemporaries in Per 36 when you look at Rookie Seasons

 

[Lizakers]

Agreed. But as a starter going against elite PGs nightly, his offense may suffer, we will see next season.

 

[tupac003]

Are we going to mess around and pull this out?

 

[MVP]

Agreed. But as a starter going against elite PGs nightly, his offense may suffer, we will see next season.

Exactly. And there's not a rookie in the league playing 36 minutes a night, usually more minutes means less efficiency, more turnovers etc. He's playing a minute less than Zinger and 3 less than KAT, Jah, and Mudiay. He's had the benefit of going up against a lot of 2nd units to put up the numbers he has. We'll see with a coaching change or just an insertion into being the every game starter what he really is like, next season. 

 

[BIG LEEMELONE]

Kobe checks in late in the 4th and you see him stretching on the court during the middle of a play

 

[tupac003]

Kobe man...

 

[essential1]

Agreed. But as a starter going against elite PGs nightly, his offense may suffer, we will see next season.

Starter (22 games): 11.6/4.5/3.3 .406/.330
Bench (31 games); 12.1/2.9/3.2 .422/.336

It really hasn't done anything, but impact his rebounding... And he's shooting slightly better, which is a just as much a rookie progression thing as anything else, getting used to ranges, defense, strength needed, etc.

As for nobody gets 36 minutes.. There's been some guys currently in the league at PG who have. It doesn't matter.. Why shouldn't he be getting 32-33 minutes. He'd be keeping minutes from who? Marcelo Huertas, Anthony Brown & Nick Young?

And saying, he'd be LESS efficient with more minutes... We don't know that, nor is it really a proven hypothesis... Maybe as he starts out, sure... But it then becomes something he's used to the stress. Who cares if it did hurt his efficiency when he started. You let him play. You let him learn how he needs to play when he's at 32 minutes and tired. You let him him make the mistakes, so he learns from it.

Taking him out, not letting him start, or playing more minutes because oh he might have an extra turnover is not only shortsighted, it's a stupid way of coaching.

 

[fun guy]

That finger had me holding my breath. Kobe coming back like it was nothing made me really nostalgic. 

...on another note, if that was d'lo he'd still be on the ground.

 

[MVP]

Starter (22 games): 11.6/4.5/3.3 .406/.330
Bench (31 games); 12.1/2.9/3.2 .422/.336

It really hasn't done anything, but impact his rebounding... And he's shooting slightly better, which is a just as much a rookie progression thing as anything else, getting used to ranges, defense, strength needed, etc.

As for nobody gets 36 minutes.. There's been some guys currently in the league at PG who have. It doesn't matter.. Why shouldn't he be getting 32-33 minutes. He'd be keeping minutes from who? Marcelo Huertas, Anthony Brown & Nick Young?

And saying, he'd be LESS efficient with more minutes... We don't know that, nor is it really a proven hypothesis... Who cares. You let him play. You let him learn how he needs to play when he's at 32 minutes and tired. You let him him make the mistakes, so he learns from it.

Taking him out, not letting him start, or playing more minutes because oh he might have an extra turnover is not only shortsighted and a stupid way of coaching.

So if the more minutes turn him into Mudiay you gonna be ok with that?

 

[essential1]

Anywho... Here's what I posted in the NBA thread of Russell compared to other PGs rookie seasons. Blame MCW for throwing all the names out of wack.

It should ease some fears.

View media item 1915245

 

[MVP]

PER 36 has to be the most useless stat in the league. Just an extrapolation that doesn't take into account any of the physical factors like fatigue and competition. 

 

[essential1]

So if the more minutes turn him into Mudiay you gonna be ok with that?

That would be a long fall to get to that point, if we're being honest.

But letting him start, giving him an extra minute per time he sees the court.. Letting him close, so he's at 32 mpg.. That extra 5 minutes is not going to turn him into Marcelo Huertas for that 5 minutes..

Would playing 34-35-36 minutes take some getting used to... Of course.. But that's why you start small at the beginning of the year, and you ramp it up. So he learns how to play more minutes.

Keeping him at 27 minutes because you feel like it.. Which seems like Byron's approach so far. Because we've never gotten a straight, non-contradictory explanation from him, Is more detrimental to him than saying, hey here's 33-34-35 minutes... If you make a mistake, forget about it, keep playing. Learn to get your legs under you, and how to play this long.. Or hey let's start you at 25minutes.. Next month is 28.. 3rd month 30. 4th month 32..

PER 36 has to be the most useless stat in the league. Just an extrapolation that doesn't take into account any of the physical factors like fatigue and competition. 

It only is when you're comparing guys who are playing 18 minutes versus a guy playing 36 minutes... These are all guys with the exception of Dame Lillard who led the league in minutes his rookie season... That were at 27-33minutes..


I.e. Like when somebody in the NBA thread posted Boban is averaging 24/15 PER 36.. Awesome.. He's averaging 8.7mpg... That's very different from a guy averaging 27mpg. You can extrapolate that.