NYK '14 offseason thread

[mrdozo]

Does anyone else think we have too many guards now?

 

[mrdozo]

Its not about stars or needs.

Rondo INSTANTLY makes everyone around him better. He's a top 3 PG at strictly penetrating and passing. Look how far he got without a J.

No knock on Felton but he is who he is. We know what we'll get from him and most of the nights its average to good. Couple of 3s, one nice pass, a floater or 2. Pablo is the perfect back up PG.

Teams that won it all without a PG had a dominant player. We dont have any DOMINANT players (shaq, lebron, jordan etc).

shots fired

So thats how you feel about Melo huh?
Someone booo this man

 

[goldenchild9]

Its not about stars or needs.

Rondo INSTANTLY makes everyone around him better. He's a top 3 PG at strictly penetrating and passing. Look how far he got without a J.

No knock on Felton but he is who he is. We know what we'll get from him and most of the nights its average to good. Couple of 3s, one nice pass, a floater or 2. Pablo is the perfect back up PG.

Teams that won it all without a PG had a dominant player. We dont have any DOMINANT players (shaq, lebron, jordan etc).

 

[beh235]

 

[you go boy]

Its not about stars or needs.

Rondo INSTANTLY makes everyone around him better. He's a top 3 PG at strictly penetrating and passing. Look how far he got without a J.

No knock on Felton but he is who he is. We know what we'll get from him and most of the nights its average to good. Couple of 3s, one nice pass, a floater or 2. Pablo is the perfect back up PG.

Teams that won it all without a PG had a dominant player. We dont have any DOMINANT players (shaq, lebron, jordan etc).

is melo not a dominant player? i mean he is a top 10 player in the league and was considered an mvp canidate last year... he definitely can bring a championship here to the knicks if he evolves as a player and the right pieces are around him... i want rondo on this team as much as everyone else but to gut the roster for him when you dont even need a star pg to win a championship wouldnt make sense... think of when we got melo and how depleted the team was and think of our team now and how much time it took to build it... i look at the mavs team that won it all in 2011 and think to myself why cant it happen for the knicks

 

[beh235]

 

Its not about stars or needs.

Rondo INSTANTLY makes everyone around him better. He's a top 3 PG at strictly penetrating and passing. Look how far he got without a J.

No knock on Felton but he is who he is. We know what we'll get from him and most of the nights its average to good. Couple of 3s, one nice pass, a floater or 2. Pablo is the perfect back up PG.

Teams that won it all without a PG had a dominant player. We dont have any DOMINANT players (shaq, lebron, jordan etc).

is melo not a dominant player? i mean he is a top 10 player in the league and was considered an mvp canidate last year... he definitely can bring a championship here to the knicks if he evolves as a player and the right pieces are around him... i want rondo on this team as much as everyone else but to gut the roster for him when you dont even need a star pg to win a championship wouldnt make sense... think of when we got melo and how depleted the team was and think of our team now and how much time it took to build it... i look at the mavs team that won it all in 2011 and think to myself why cant it happen for the knicks

Which one is it? Doesn't sound like a confident statement.

I might be picking a bit, but this statement really stood out to me. Think about absolute dominant players in NBA history. Abdul Jabbar, Bird, Johnson, Jordan, O'neal, Bryant etc. would this statement apply to them if you substituted their names in? Those aforementioned players didn't have to evolve. In their primes, their games were already there. 'Melo is 10 years in, we know what we're getting with him. In the next couple of years, his game will decline, not because he lack skill but that's what the clock says. 

 

[onewearz]

I loved seeing TH sr. clapping and cheering for his kid last night. Must've been kiiling him to be rooting for the Knicks

He probably sees it at rooting for his son, not the Knicks per se.

i think i heard he's a scout for the Heat , how do u think he handles a Knicks Heat ECF ?

View media item 610507

i only say this cause supposedly he "despises" the Knicks ..... and gay people ....

 

[goldenchild9]

 

Its not about stars or needs.


Rondo INSTANTLY makes everyone around him better. He's a top 3 PG at strictly penetrating and passing. Look how far he got without a J.


No knock on Felton but he is who he is. We know what we'll get from him and most of the nights its average to good. Couple of 3s, one nice pass, a floater or 2. Pablo is the perfect back up PG.


Teams that won it all without a PG had a dominant player. We dont have any DOMINANT players (shaq, lebron, jordan etc).

is melo not a dominant player? i mean he is a top 10 player in the league and was considered an mvp canidate last year... he definitely can bring a championship here to the knicks if he evolves as a player and the right pieces are around him... i want rondo on this team as much as everyone else but to gut the roster for him when you dont even need a star pg to win a championship wouldnt make sense... think of when we got melo and how depleted the team was and think of our team now and how much time it took to build it... i look at the mavs team that won it all in 2011 and think to myself why cant it happen for the knicks

Which one is it? Doesn't sound like a confident statement.

I might be picking a bit, but this statement really stood out to me. Think about absolute dominant players in NBA history. Abdul Jabbar, Bird, Johnson, Jordan, O'neal, Bryant etc. would this statement apply to them if you substituted their names in? Those aforementioned players didn't have to evolve. In their primes, their games were already there. 'Melo is 10 years in, we know what we're getting with him. In the next couple of years, his game will decline, not because he lack skill but that's what the clock says. 

Not true.

At one point Jordan was viewed as a volume scorer that wouldn't be able to get past the elite teams and players of his era....and he might not have without Phil and Scottie.

There was a lot of doubt about Shaq's future after getting schooled by Hakeem in the Finals, jetting to LA and then getting continually kicked out of the POs by WC rivals....til Phil got there.

Few people saw Dirk as a legit championship player until late in his career with the right pieces around him.

Don't forget just a few years ago (especially after losing to ORL in the ECF), people were saying Bron would never win a chip because he wasn't clutch and deferred at the end of games. Even after losing with Miami in the Finals, people were saying that.

KG, Pierce, Ray...no one thought they would go all the way, until they teamed up late in their careers.

There is always doubt surrounding even the greatest of players....until they actually win it all.


If Dirk can win it all, so can Melo.

He's still young, has an elite skill set and an increasingly improving roster around him. Last season might have been his best ever, so he's still improving and we're gonna have a lot of $ to sign top players in 2 seasons.

Carmelo can def lead us to the promised land with the right players surrounding him. S_ if STAT can remain healthy and productive in limited minutes, he might be able to do it this season.

 

[you go boy]

melo is a great scorer we all know that but its too early to tell if he can evolve as a player... he has gotten better since woody took over as coach so the future does look good...and your comparing melo to players that are certified hall of famers and the best of their era... i was just saying as far as talent and superstars we got melo all we need to do is build around him no need for a star point guard... and what i ment by evolve is making his teammates better something dirk, kobe and even jordan didnt do when they were younger but eventually they learned that skill and won a championship... the knicks might need more talent/superstars to win a championship but a point guard shouldnt be one of them

 

[johnnyredstorm]

Kobe had to evolve a couple of times before he go to where he is today.

The way Melo plays, I think he can put up 20+ PPG on a decent FG% for the next 5-8 years. A lot of his problems stem from taking quick and unnecessary shots. You cut out a lot of those one dribble 20 footers with a hand in his face that he shoots with 18 seconds on the shot clock and he'll be more efficient.

I wanna see Melo run the pick-and-roll more with Tyson and Amar'e, and pick-and-pop plays with Bargs. That'll get him the extra assist or two he needs for people to shut up about being a black hole and it'll keep the Knicks offense from becoming stagnant. Put him on the block more, have him run a couple of UCLA cuts, just move without the ball and score off the ball more.

 

[theenorthstar]

Havent been here in a DAMN good min. Ive completely fallen off keeping up w/ the sports world...

But what the ****.. I just found out via an NYK IG Vid that we ****** signed Cole Aldrich...?!?

I went to high school with the dude.. MAD weird. Idk if i like it but w/e ..

 

[7thave btn 31stn33rd st]

johnnyredstorm I think you will see more of that this year, I think we saw a little glimpse last night. Double team comes to Melo, dishes to Bargs. We know Melo will kill anyone on one-on-one. Unlike Amare, Melo and Bargs can play on the same side of the floor.

 

[nychiphophippo]

Bargs is crazyyy out of shape right now

Dudes on that Boris Diaw lite

He's only going to get better as the season progresses,

 

[beh235]

 

 

 

 

Which one is it? Doesn't sound like a confident statement.

I might be picking a bit, but this statement really stood out to me. Think about absolute dominant players in NBA history. Abdul Jabbar, Bird, Johnson, Jordan, O'neal, Bryant etc. would this statement apply to them if you substituted their names in? Those aforementioned players didn't have to evolve. In their primes, their games were already there. 'Melo is 10 years in, we know what we're getting with him. In the next couple of years, his game will decline, not because he lack skill but that's what the clock says. 

Not true.

At one point Jordan was viewed as a volume scorer that wouldn't be able to get past the elite teams and players of his era....and he might not have without Phil and Scottie.

There was a lot of doubt about Shaq's future after getting schooled by Hakeem in the Finals, jetting to LA and then getting continually kicked out of the POs by WC rivals....til Phil got there.

Few people saw Dirk as a legit championship player until late in his career with the right pieces around him.

Don't forget just a few years ago (especially after losing to ORL in the ECF), people were saying Bron would never win a chip because he wasn't clutch and deferred at the end of games. Even after losing with Miami in the Finals, people were saying that.

KG, Pierce, Ray...no one thought they would go all the way, until they teamed up late in their careers.

There is always doubt surrounding even the greatest of players....until they actually win it all.


If Dirk can win it all, so can Melo.

He's still young, has an elite skill set and an increasingly improving roster around him. Last season might have been his best ever, so he's still improving and we're gonna have a lot of $ to sign top players in 2 seasons.

Carmelo can def lead us to the promised land with the right players surrounding him. S_ if STAT can remain healthy and productive in limited minutes, he might be able to do it this season.

Jordan was like that until he figured out being a volume scorer wasn't cutting it. Up until he got Scottie in 87, he didn't have that solid #2, and even then he had to figure it out with Phil.

KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray, remember didn't choose Boston. They all sought out trades and landed there. The original big three was engineered by Danny Ainge. 

When Shaq lost in the finals to the Rockets, you do realize he was in his third year right? In the FINALS, and got swept, and he wasn't even in his prime. That says a lot. And this was back when there was comp in the East. 

Dirk won, and have you noticed he's never been the same after that?  He was 32 when he won it. On the back end of his prime. Carmelo is 29, and will be 30 in May. He's young in regular every day years, but not in NBA years fam. After 10 years in the L, there is no developing skills, you just work on deficiencies in your game. If you're 10 years in on any job, you are past the "developing" stage in said field, at that point you are refining what you already know. The clock is ticking.....

STAT is done. Unless he goes 10/10 in the 25 minutes he's limited in until he retires, he's not going to be what you think he is? I'm a fan of basketball and I want to see old STAT back because I think he got robbed of a few years, but that's not going to happen. He'll be 31 next month.

You're right about Lebron, until he got smart and realized he needed real help. He never was going to get that from Cleveland. BUT you knew he needed the right mix to win, why? Take a look at all his bum *** rosters he had made look like stars. 

melo is a great scorer we all know that but its too early to tell if he can evolve as a player... he has gotten better since woody took over as coach so the future does look good...and your comparing melo to players that are certified hall of famers and the best of their era... i was just saying as far as talent and superstars we got melo all we need to do is build around him no need for a star point guard... and what i ment by evolve is making his teammates better something dirk, kobe and even jordan didnt do when they were younger but eventually they learned that skill and won a championship... the knicks might need more talent/superstars to win a championship but a point guard shouldnt be one of them

So you are arguing for Carmelo being dominant, but then don't want to say he fits in the category of HOF status in his current cohort of players? If you are arguing for Melo, do it all the way. Thank you for clarifying the type of evolution, you're talking about team evolution. I'll buy that but it will take a total team effort for that to work, important pieces like JR worry me in terms of that. 

Kobe had to evolve a couple of times before he go to where he is today.

The way Melo plays, I think he can put up 20+ PPG on a decent FG% for the next 5-8 years. A lot of his problems stem from taking quick and unnecessary shots. You cut out a lot of those one dribble 20 footers with a hand in his face that he shoots with 18 seconds on the shot clock and he'll be more efficient.

I wanna see Melo run the pick-and-roll more with Tyson and Amar'e, and pick-and-pop plays with Bargs. That'll get him the extra assist or two he needs for people to shut up about being a black hole and it'll keep the Knicks offense from becoming stagnant. Put him on the block more, have him run a couple of UCLA cuts, just move without the ball and score off the ball more.

Kobe did have to evolve. He had to deflate his ego and realize he can't do it on his own like he tried to prove right after Shaq left. He got a rude awakening on that one. The pace you're asking for for Melo, maybe. Since he shoots more than he drives it's plausible, BUT the older he gets, he'll see doubles in the perimeter from defenses and since he can't drive, he will be rendered a non factor in games at an older age, according to your projection. Carmelo and efficiency don't belong in the same sentence most nights btw 

. We'll see how he runs pick and roll with the new guys. My heart wants him to realize it's more than just step back jumpers, but my eyes are telling me otherwise. 

Look, I'm not trying to dog Carmelo, I just see an area in his game that I think he's wasting. With his skill level he should be able to recognize how he can draw defenders and kick out for better ball rotation. That helps the team, instead it's just more of the same dribble and step back he's been doing. Not that it doesn't work, it clearly does, but it makes defending him easier since it's one dimensional style, especially in crunch time when players usually revert to the style of play they know. 

 

[yeeupp]

Bargs is crazyyy out of shape right now

Dudes on that Boris Diaw lite

He's only going to get better as the season progresses,

I have faith that Melo and Bargs will be a nice duo. I'm cutting Bargs some slack for a while cause he had pneumonia most of the summer and couldn't play like he wanted to.
Wish he could of played with the Italian team, he would of came to camp much improved.

 

[|A-Man|]

Any comments on woody's unkempt look last night? What was up with him not shaving and being groomed as he usually is?

As for this Rondo/Priggy discussion I'd take Rondo as much as I love Priggy Smalls. Different playing styles and a whole lot of bs talk about what their teams look without them or their individual play but at the end of the day for me it comes down to a dude in his prime as opposed to an aging vet. I'll take the guy in his prime after dealing with the Knicks projects on old vet players.

Don't want to lose Shump for him though.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

I agree with you, Beh, that Melo needs to drive more.

It's easy to scout Melo because of how iso heavy of a scorer he is. He catches the ball behind the arc, he's gonna shoot over you or take one dribble and chuck. He catches the ball at the elbow he'll jab step and shoot over you.

That's why I wanna see Woody run more sets, hammer home the importance of moving the ball and moving without the ball.

I watched the Nets preseason game earlier for work and their offense looked smooth with the starters on the floor. Guys are setting screens away from the ball, dribble hand-offs are being ran, very little isolation.

 

[|A-Man|]

Also now that I think about it don't know why yall comparing Priggy to Rondo anyway. Is that some way to ignore the fact that Rondo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Felton ?

I thought he died.

?

 

[true 3 blue]

Not sure if sarcasm, but his father did.

 

[beh235]

I agree with you, Beh, that Melo needs to drive more.

It's easy to scout Melo because of how iso heavy of a scorer he is. He catches the ball behind the arc, he's gonna shoot over you or take one dribble and chuck. He catches the ball at the elbow he'll jab step and shoot over you.

That's why I wanna see Woody run more sets, hammer home the importance of moving the ball and moving without the ball.

I watched the Nets preseason game earlier for work and their offense looked smooth with the starters on the floor. Guys are setting screens away from the ball, dribble hand-offs are being ran, very little isolation.

That's what I mean. I really think the key to the Knicks change on offense is just buying into ball movement period, not really being specific to one player. Keep the ball moving and when that happens shooters will wind up with open shots instead of someone catching the ball on that hot potato and either taking a shot late in the shot clock or taking one too early. Carmelo is key in this, say he takes it upon himself to say "if my shot isn't going, I'm going to drive" -and he does this, JR, Bargs, and any other nearby Knick will have crazy open jumpers. That jab step jumper is becoming predictable, albeit an unstoppable move. I'm tired of seeing a lane he has and he decides to shoot instead of going around his man. I remember Melo having a damn good first step at Syracuse and early on in Denver, why he went away from that, I have no idea. I bet you in every scouting report coaches are saying let him have that move, we can live with him beating us doing that because it's not sustainable for a long time (meaning season and postseason). I think that mentality of driving is contagious and it's part of the mental makeup of a team. Melo starts to drive, then JR starts to drive and draw fouls and so on and so forth, but if they continue to have a primarily jump shooting mentality, they will continue to be frustrated. 

 

[8pm at msg]

Melo's lost some speed off that first step. In Denver it was straight :x He can still beat his man off the dribble but he sometimes he spends so much time just dribbling that he passes up on a easier drive for a difficult one just like you said. Then he's lost some lift so he gets into the paint and doesn't get high off the ground and misses some bunnies

 

[beh235]

Melo's lost some speed off that first step. In Denver it was straight

He can still beat his man off the dribble but he sometimes he spends so much time just dribbling that he passes up on a easier drive for a difficult one just like you said. Then he's lost some lift so he gets into the paint and doesn't get high off the ground and misses some bunnies

See, that is what I was alluding to when I said he's on the down slide of his prime, it's not loss of skill per se, but he, like everyone gets older, and while he's not an old man, he's also not 20 anymore. Now going forward the question is going to be, how badly does he want to win? Will he be so tired of losing he's willing to do whatever it takes to win (such as openly complain to management that he needs better talent around him to win? a la Kobe in 05). I'd prefer him to complain for more talent, it's a **** move for throwing teammates under the bus but it puts management on notice letting them know look, either you give me a real supporting cast I can work with, or I'm ghost. Given his personality, I don't think he would do that though.

 

[Mister Meaner]

I got confused reading these last two pages regarding the Prigioni vs Rondo debate. You're comparing a starter to a backup? You can't seriously think that Prigioni can duplicate what Rondo brings to the table. The simple fact of the matter is that Rondo is better than all of our point guards, and while his jumper isn't perfect, it has improved. He is a rather quintessential point guard, everyone around him becomes better. And best believe guys like Melo, Shump, J R. etc. would welcome a ball-dominant pass first pg like him.

 

[beh235]

I got confused reading these last two pages regarding the Prigioni vs Rondo debate. You're comparing a starter to a backup? You can't seriously think that Prigioni can duplicate what Rondo brings to the table. The simple fact of the matter is that Rondo is better than all of our point guards, and while his jumper isn't perfect, it has improved. He is a rather quintessential point guard, everyone around him becomes better. And best believe guys like Melo, Shump, J R. etc. would welcome a ball-dominant pass first pg like him.

Agreed

 

[squatchnt]

I love Prigs and think he's underrated, but uuuuh no way I'm picking him as my pg if Rondo is available.

I'm going to say 'Melo is already a future HOF'er. He'll get in but the wait will be shorter if he has on jewlery. If the Knicks get him a 2nd bonafide star the Knicks could be a problem. On paper he and Kwamare are that duo. Time is the enemy because even if they get that 2nd star in place it will prolly take a season for them to "get right".