OFFICIAL 2010-2011 NBA PLAYOFFS THREAD : VOL. MOST. ANTICIPATED. PLAYOFFS. EVER?

[proshares]

How Tyrus Thomas plays so little minutes is crazy to me (at least this season). He showed a lot of game and good skills/body language in the minutes he got early in the season and seemed to be coming in to his own.

BTW, would Tyreke be a good fit at the 3?

 

[bhzmafia14]

Mike u do the same %@@% if the grizz made a similar for capspace. Its easy for u to look at dealing with that damn Phoenix team. Lol

 

[bhzmafia14]

Mike u do the same %@@% if the grizz made a similar for capspace. Its easy for u to look at dealing with that damn Phoenix team. Lol

 

[bigmike23]

ya but they haven't soooo.....

and pro you talking about evans playing SF?

 

[ValarMorghulis]

Bobcats and Suns need to blow it up and start again period

 

[bigmike23]

ya but they haven't soooo.....

and pro you talking about evans playing SF?

 

[ValarMorghulis]

Bobcats and Suns need to blow it up and start again period

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Gortat makes about 4-5 mil less a year then Hedo.  And Vince 18 mil expiring is 4 mil more then J-Rich's expiring.  Yet they add 5 mil in salary next year due to Pietrus.  (unless he opts out) 

So uh......How does ANY of that help?  They basically savin about 5 mil a year 2 years from now, after Nash is done and buried.  Oh, and they get an Orlando #1 next year, early to mid 20 range. 

About as pointless a deal for a team as I can remember.  So are they giving up on this year and don't care if Vince sits?  Fine, then why keep Nash?  Because he's the face of the team?  What about trying to get better in 1-2 years?  Should you not aquire assests all around?  Nash = brings in additional assets. 

It's like they wish to remain in the 8-9 seed range.  You either reload to make a run, or you rebuild to start over.  You don't do both.  Which is what this deal is. 

Getting Gortat, Pietrus, Expiring Vince Carter and first round pick for Bum Hedo and one dimensional Jason Richardson?

Advantage PHX.

Not that PHX is going to challenge for the conference, but to get a center like that is definitely a win. Especially considering Robin is injury prone. Childress/expiring Carter/Pietrus are all attractive pieces for other teams looking for wing players. There might be more moves for them.

There's only so much teams can do, not everyone can trade Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Gortat makes about 4-5 mil less a year then Hedo.  And Vince 18 mil expiring is 4 mil more then J-Rich's expiring.  Yet they add 5 mil in salary next year due to Pietrus.  (unless he opts out) 

So uh......How does ANY of that help?  They basically savin about 5 mil a year 2 years from now, after Nash is done and buried.  Oh, and they get an Orlando #1 next year, early to mid 20 range. 

About as pointless a deal for a team as I can remember.  So are they giving up on this year and don't care if Vince sits?  Fine, then why keep Nash?  Because he's the face of the team?  What about trying to get better in 1-2 years?  Should you not aquire assests all around?  Nash = brings in additional assets. 

It's like they wish to remain in the 8-9 seed range.  You either reload to make a run, or you rebuild to start over.  You don't do both.  Which is what this deal is. 

Getting Gortat, Pietrus, Expiring Vince Carter and first round pick for Bum Hedo and one dimensional Jason Richardson?

Advantage PHX.

Not that PHX is going to challenge for the conference, but to get a center like that is definitely a win. Especially considering Robin is injury prone. Childress/expiring Carter/Pietrus are all attractive pieces for other teams looking for wing players. There might be more moves for them.

There's only so much teams can do, not everyone can trade Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol

 

[CP1708]

All of a sudden Gortat is Wilt in his prime. 

 

The deal was Hedo for Gortat/Pietrus and #1 then.  VC and JRich are both expirings.  I would hardly call Gortat/Pietrus a win for anybody, and I LOVE Pietrus's game/heart. 



And Memphis made a killing in the Pau deal, people are just too stupid to see that. 

 

[CP1708]

All of a sudden Gortat is Wilt in his prime. 

 

The deal was Hedo for Gortat/Pietrus and #1 then.  VC and JRich are both expirings.  I would hardly call Gortat/Pietrus a win for anybody, and I LOVE Pietrus's game/heart. 



And Memphis made a killing in the Pau deal, people are just too stupid to see that. 

 

[proshares]

Yea Mike. I know he's a little undersized and it'd be a really risky move but I'm looking at some stats for this guy and it's atrocious at the 1 and the 2. He's last in assist rate playing the 1 and dead last in true shooting % when he plays the 2. ##*$ is scary

 

[proshares]

Yea Mike. I know he's a little undersized and it'd be a really risky move but I'm looking at some stats for this guy and it's atrocious at the 1 and the 2. He's last in assist rate playing the 1 and dead last in true shooting % when he plays the 2. ##*$ is scary

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Rockets almost at .500

.  I bought that team being in the playoffs before the season so glad they making me at least look less stupid.

Great Knick win last night, had me on a high before going out for my bday

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Rockets almost at .500

.  I bought that team being in the playoffs before the season so glad they making me at least look less stupid.

Great Knick win last night, had me on a high before going out for my bday

 

[CP1708]

 Same here AMP.  I had them at 7, Grizz at 8. 

However, I think I had the Spurs not making the playoffs........oops. 

 

[CP1708]

 Same here AMP.  I had them at 7, Grizz at 8. 

However, I think I had the Spurs not making the playoffs........oops. 

 

[proshares]

Two years ago, the Lakers and Magic met in the NBA Finals. Last season, they were two games away from a rematch.

This season? We might not see either team play past mid-May.

It's only December, but these two teams, which set their sights on winning a championship before the season (and have payrolls to match), already are losing contact with the leaders in their respective conferences. While their stars are shining as brightly as ever -- Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard are second and third in the NBA in player efficiency rating, respectively -- L.A. and Orlando stand nowhere near the lofty heights expected for them at the start of the season.

L.A. is just 21-8 despite playing by far the league's easiest schedule, and while the Lakers have been without Andrew Bynum for nearly the entire time, they've had remarkably few injuries otherwise -- aside from Bynum, their top eight players have missed a total of one game.

Yet the Lakers find themselves slipping well out of range of San Antonio -- they're already 4.5 games behind, and as I mentioned, they've yet to get into the teeth of their schedule. Moreover, with Dallas at 23-5, the Lakers face the very real possibility of having to win two series on the road just to get back to the Finals. That's a far different road than we imagined heading into the season, when L.A. was an overwhelming favorite to win the conference.

And for those of you who aren't troubled by that fact and think the Lakers can just turn it on for the postseason, consider these two facts: (1) The Lakers have been the West's top seed each of the past three seasons, helping grease their Western Conference three-peat, and (2) L.A. hasn't won a series without home-court advantage since … wait for it … 2004 against Minnesota.

L.A. has played only one series without home-court advantage the past three years -- the 2008 Finals against Boston, which it lost in six games. The Lakers were fortunate to have higher-seeded Eastern teams knocked out each of the past two years, handing them home-court advantage, but they can't count on that going forward. Furthermore, consider that the Lakers have lost all three road games against winning teams so far this season. Sixteen such games remain on the schedule, starting with next week's back-to-back in San Antonio and New Orleans.

Additionally, the Lakers appear to be regressing rather than progressing. With Pau Gasol worn out from a heavy minutes load and the point guard position again an open sore, L.A. is having trouble even against bad teams. The Lakers just completed a patsy-filled stretch in which 12 of their 13 opponents had sub-.500 records, and stumbled to an 8-5 mark, culminating in Tuesday's blowout home loss to Milwaukee.

Yet L.A.'s troubles pale beside those of the Magic, who stand a whopping 7.5 games behind Boston in the Eastern Conference. At 16-12 after dropping nine of its past 10 games, Orlando wouldn't even have home-court advantage in the first round of the playoffs if the postseason began today. With upcoming tilts against the league's two top teams, Boston and San Antonio, the Magic could lose further ground.

Orlando has fallen so far that you'll need to click onto the second page of the Power Rankings to find it, all the way down at No. 17.

Despite Howard's expanded post repertoire, including a newly developed midrange bank shot for which he should pay royalties to Tim Duncan, the Magic's offensive attack has imploded over the past 10 games. Superficially, it seems that shouldn't have been the case, since Vince Carter, Jameer Nelson, Marcin Gortat and Brandon Bass have all played at or near their historic norms.

But three positions contributed mightily to the malaise. First, there were the struggles of the since-traded Rashard Lewis, who soaked up 32 minutes a game but barely averaged double figures and shot 41.8 percent.

Then there was the replacement-level output at the small forward spot manned by Quentin Richardson and Mickael Pietrus. The two were asked only to hit 3s, and while they shot them plenty (more than eight tries a game between them), they were only league average in accuracy.

And finally, there was the absolutely disastrous audition at backup point guard by Chris Duhon, featuring a Mozgovian 20.9 turnover ratio that's easily the league's worst at his position. (But don't worry, Orlando -- in just three and a half short years, that contract will be off your books.)

Enter Agent Zero, along with the return of Turk, and the departure of Carter and the same offensive struggles. In fact, the Magic's three new horsemen rode in to be the three worst offensive players on the floor in Tuesday's loss to Dallas. Gilbert Arenas, in particular, was horrific on both ends, blowing rotations defensively and firing his usual assortment of questionable shots on offense. Had he been replaced by any randomly selected D-League point guard, Orlando might very well have won.

Obviously it's too early to proclaim success or failure with the Magic's midseason reconstruction project, but the entire rationale behind the trade was that this team no longer appeared to be a legitimate contender. But they've taken a huge risk to get back to that level and it's unsure, at best, whether it will succeed.

Similarly, only a fool would dismiss the Lakers at this point. We've seen them look far worse than this -- last March, for instance -- and recover. Our puzzlement, instead, is that a Western Conference that seemingly was going to be a one-team race now looks to have at least three horses worthy of a wager … and it's debatable whether L.A. should still be considered the favorite of the three.

Fifty games remain for each of these teams to get their acts together, and with elite talents like Howard and Bryant as linchpins, it's certainly possible they recover in time to make their usual deep playoff run this spring. That said, virtually everyone's list of the top four contenders heading into this season included both Orlando and the Lakers. Neither has played like a top-four team to date.

 
The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in The Association.
[h3]

[h3]Question: Better "Big Three," the Los Angeles Lakers or Miami Heat?[/h3]

BROUSSARD: Ever since Miami's Big Three came together, they've been getting compared to other Big Threes. So how do they stack up against Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom? While L.A. obviously has a great trio, I think LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh are superior.

BUCHER: Obviously there are different ways to measure a Big Three: a comparison of each player's pure gifts; how the three players fit together on the court; their time-tested accomplishments. But as physically imposing as Wade and LeBron can be, particularly in transition, and as much incredible hype as the Wade-LBJ-Bosh marriage has received, I don't see one of those categories in which I'd take the Heat trio over the Lakers' three of Kobe, Gasol and Odom. I'm truly interested in hearing why you would.

CB: At this point, there's no doubt the Lakers' chemistry tops that of Miami. But as time goes on and the Heat's trio continues to gel, it will become more potent than L.A.'s "Big Three."

I put L.A.'s "Big Three" in quotes because I'm not sure Odom qualifies as the third guy. Many would argue that Andrew Bynum is the third guy. I would certainly argue that he's been a bigger factor in their past two titles than Odom (not to diminish LO's importance). So you may be arguing for a "Big Two-and-a-Half."

RB: Claiming that Odom doesn't deserve to be considered part of the Big Three over Bynum is a huge disservice to his contributions over the last two seasons and especially this one, where he's played at an All-Star level. Mr. Inconsistency has 13 double-doubles already and is shooting nearly 60 percent from the floor and 37.5 from the arc, both career highs. He's contributed at least six and as many as 17 boards every night.

CB: Face it, for as much heat as LeBron, Bosh and Wade have gotten this season, they've been more effective than Kobe, Pau and Odom. Their records are virtually identical, and the Lakers' schedule has been a cakewalk. Los Angeles has only beaten two teams with winning records and is 2-3 against winning clubs. One of those wins was against a Chicago Bulls team without Carlos Boozer. Later in the season, when Boozer played, Chicago beat L.A. The other "quality win" was against a Portland Trail Blazers team that's barely over .500.

If the Lakers were under the same scrutiny as Miami, the sky would be falling in LA-LA Land. And fact is, if Bynum weren't coming to the rescue, folks would really be panicking.

Meanwhile, the Heat are 5-7 against teams with winning records, which is a slightly better winning percentage than Lakers' (.416 vs. .400). Plus, the Heat have beaten better teams -- Utah, Atlanta, Orlando, New Orleans, New York -- than L.A. has. The Heat have played more than twice as many winning teams (12 to five) than the Lakers, yet they have a better point differential, outscoring teams by an average of 9.4 points per game to 7.6 for the Lakers.

When you consider that L.A.'s Big Three has a better supporting cast (Bynum, Ron Artest, Derek Fisher), a better coach and has been together for years (versus two months for Miami), I'd say the Heat's group has been better.

RB: I have no doubt the Heat's chemistry will improve over time, but there's an inherent flaw in their makeup that will prevent them from ever achieving what the Lakers' Big Three has achieved: They can't impact the game without the ball. Forget the offensive side of the ball for a minute: Kobe, Pau and LO are all versatile and premier defenders at their positions. I can't say that about Bosh, Wade still gambles too much and LeBron is very good when he chooses to be -- he just doesn't always make that choice.

No one's making much of how the Lakers are playing because they've made three consecutive runs to the Finals and are determined to make a fourth. They know the level they have to play at and they know when they have to play at that level; November/December is not the time. And I'm sorry, but I don't think the two-time defending champions look at any part of their schedule as being something they can't squeeze an eight-game winning streak out of, no matter who they're playing or where.

That's what disappoints me about the Heat's Big Three: They should be the hungriest team in the league, bar none, and yet fire and energy and attention to detail are the elements they consistently lack. The teams they've beaten are teams they can physically overwhelm with their speed. I don't know that they've out-executed a team yet. When Boston's Big Three came together for the first time, they pounced on opponents from Day 1. I didn't hear any of them suggesting Doc Rivers was playing them too many minutes or asking them to go too hard in practice.

The biggest part of the Lakers' arsenal that the Heat Big Three doesn't have, though, is the ability to execute under pressure as a unit. When it comes to that, the Heat are not even the league's second-best Big Three. Because for all of Kobe, Pau and LO's amazing athleticism and physical gifts, it is their ability to play off each other by cutting, passing and moving without the ball that sets them apart. And that is how playoff games are decided and "Big Three" monikers are truly earned.

CB: Members of the Lakers' trio don't really overlap, like LeBron and D-Wade do to a degree. But much of what you mentioned as an advantage for the Lakers -- the cutting, passing and moving without the ball -- is due to Phil Jackson and the Triangle, not the Big Three themselves. Give Miami's Big Three Phil Jackson and they'd be better in those areas as well.

RB: No doubt the Triangle requires players to move and cut and pass, but to suggest all a player -- any player -- needs is to have a coach who can teach him the system is simply not true. Certainly not at the NBA level. A player doesn't learn how to do those things because he's in the system, a player functions in the system because he can do those things. Or to put it another way: Take away isolations and pick-and-rolls from Wade, LeBron and Bosh and I'm sure they'd still be very good. But to suggest they'd be even better because a coach forced them into a pass-and-cut system is a leap of faith nothing in their careers justifies.

CB: I agree that the Miami Big Three is still a work in progress on the offensive end. But they've been terrific defensively. Miami has the top-ranked defense in the league -- No. 1 in opponents' field-goal percentage (.425), points allowed (91.5) and opponents' 3-point percentage (.307), all by a wide margin -- and LeBron and Wade are the main reasons for that. Fact is their defense generates plenty of their offense. It's practically unheard of for a team with no significant presence in the middle to lead the league defensively but, because of LeBron's and Wade's length and athleticism on the perimeter, they've been able to do it.

Defensively, I'd take the Heat's Big Three over L.A.'s any day. Kobe has slowed down because of age to the point that he's no longer a lockdown guy. And Pau and Odom have been known for playing soft. Even against a much lighter schedule, the Lakers are allowing teams to shoot much better (.436) than the Heat are. And that still-solid percentage is largely due to Artest, not so much the Big Three.

RB: Slow your roll on that great defense. Just as the Lakers have played a load of lightweight opponents, the Heat's schedule has been littered with the worst offensive teams in the league. Among the 10 worst shooting teams in the league, the Heat have played nine of them, four of them twice. They've been good on the defensive end, but not great. As for comparing the Lakers' and Heat's respective Big Threes right now, I suppose if you closed one eye and somehow narrowed the focus to the first 25 games of this season, you could come up with statistics that somehow suggested the Heat are superior. But it requires turning a blind eye to far too many other factors.

As for Pau and Odom being soft, that's all relative. Compare them to Boston's front line and sure, they're more finesse than fire. But they've proved to be tougher than everybody else, including a very physical Denver Nuggets frontline two years ago. The same can't be said for your Big Three. Big men around the league routinely pound Bosh, and LeBron, for all his willingness to draw contact with a full head of steam, shies away from the post and fighting for rebounds.

CB: The Lakers have had years to hone their chemistry under the greatest coach ever (particularly in the chemistry department), and Miami has been playing together for less than two months. Admittedly, LeBron and Wade aren't the greatest fit together, but they are two of the best and most spectacular wings of this generation. They've shown over the past three weeks that they're learning quickly: LeBron is posting a little more, both are moving better without the ball and neither is pounding his dribble repeatedly for 14 seconds anymore. And Bosh has found his place in the system as well. Their numbers over the past month have been monstrous, with all three shooting over 50 percent, Bosh averaging 18 and 9, LeBron 24, 6 and 6, and Wade 27 and 7 boards. And they're clearly still a ways away from fulfilling their potential.

Heck, give Miami's Big Three Bynum, Fisher, Steve Blake, Artest, Shannon Brown and Phil Jackson and they'd defeat, L.A.'s Big Three plus Carlos Arroyo, Mario Chalmers, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Erick Dampier, James Jones and Erik Spoelstra.

RB: Years to gel? The Lakers added Gasol halfway through the season and went to the Finals the same year. That was a Lakers team that started Vladimir Radmanovic at power forward and had Sasha Vujacic as the sixth man. Whatever Pau's and LO's failings were in the Finals against Boston, they combined with Kobe to get them there with one championship-caliber role player (Fisher). By that measure, if Miami's Big Three is as superior as you say, the Heat have no excuses for not getting to the Finals this year.

Of course the Heat Big Three's numbers are monstrous right now: it's the regular season and the entire game plan is geared toward them, to the point of letting them take turns and keeping one of them off the floor so they can get their "numbers" without stepping on each other. And here are a few other "spectacular" wings from the last generation: Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and Carmelo Anthony. Common integer: phenomenal individual talents who were given a pass on their failings, the blame landing on the players and coaches around them. Only as we found out later, there was something missing (though the jury's still out on Melo) in them -- the ability to be fully effective in a system not tailored for them. Now you're telling me Wade, LeBron and Bosh would all step right into the Triangle -- a system unlike anything they've ever played in -- and not only make it work for them, but for a shifting cast around them to win multiple championships. I'll give you this: That presumption is on the same level as talking about winning seven titles. Without having won one.

[/h3]

 

[proshares]

Two years ago, the Lakers and Magic met in the NBA Finals. Last season, they were two games away from a rematch.

This season? We might not see either team play past mid-May.

It's only December, but these two teams, which set their sights on winning a championship before the season (and have payrolls to match), already are losing contact with the leaders in their respective conferences. While their stars are shining as brightly as ever -- Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard are second and third in the NBA in player efficiency rating, respectively -- L.A. and Orlando stand nowhere near the lofty heights expected for them at the start of the season.

L.A. is just 21-8 despite playing by far the league's easiest schedule, and while the Lakers have been without Andrew Bynum for nearly the entire time, they've had remarkably few injuries otherwise -- aside from Bynum, their top eight players have missed a total of one game.

Yet the Lakers find themselves slipping well out of range of San Antonio -- they're already 4.5 games behind, and as I mentioned, they've yet to get into the teeth of their schedule. Moreover, with Dallas at 23-5, the Lakers face the very real possibility of having to win two series on the road just to get back to the Finals. That's a far different road than we imagined heading into the season, when L.A. was an overwhelming favorite to win the conference.

And for those of you who aren't troubled by that fact and think the Lakers can just turn it on for the postseason, consider these two facts: (1) The Lakers have been the West's top seed each of the past three seasons, helping grease their Western Conference three-peat, and (2) L.A. hasn't won a series without home-court advantage since … wait for it … 2004 against Minnesota.

L.A. has played only one series without home-court advantage the past three years -- the 2008 Finals against Boston, which it lost in six games. The Lakers were fortunate to have higher-seeded Eastern teams knocked out each of the past two years, handing them home-court advantage, but they can't count on that going forward. Furthermore, consider that the Lakers have lost all three road games against winning teams so far this season. Sixteen such games remain on the schedule, starting with next week's back-to-back in San Antonio and New Orleans.

Additionally, the Lakers appear to be regressing rather than progressing. With Pau Gasol worn out from a heavy minutes load and the point guard position again an open sore, L.A. is having trouble even against bad teams. The Lakers just completed a patsy-filled stretch in which 12 of their 13 opponents had sub-.500 records, and stumbled to an 8-5 mark, culminating in Tuesday's blowout home loss to Milwaukee.

Yet L.A.'s troubles pale beside those of the Magic, who stand a whopping 7.5 games behind Boston in the Eastern Conference. At 16-12 after dropping nine of its past 10 games, Orlando wouldn't even have home-court advantage in the first round of the playoffs if the postseason began today. With upcoming tilts against the league's two top teams, Boston and San Antonio, the Magic could lose further ground.

Orlando has fallen so far that you'll need to click onto the second page of the Power Rankings to find it, all the way down at No. 17.

Despite Howard's expanded post repertoire, including a newly developed midrange bank shot for which he should pay royalties to Tim Duncan, the Magic's offensive attack has imploded over the past 10 games. Superficially, it seems that shouldn't have been the case, since Vince Carter, Jameer Nelson, Marcin Gortat and Brandon Bass have all played at or near their historic norms.

But three positions contributed mightily to the malaise. First, there were the struggles of the since-traded Rashard Lewis, who soaked up 32 minutes a game but barely averaged double figures and shot 41.8 percent.

Then there was the replacement-level output at the small forward spot manned by Quentin Richardson and Mickael Pietrus. The two were asked only to hit 3s, and while they shot them plenty (more than eight tries a game between them), they were only league average in accuracy.

And finally, there was the absolutely disastrous audition at backup point guard by Chris Duhon, featuring a Mozgovian 20.9 turnover ratio that's easily the league's worst at his position. (But don't worry, Orlando -- in just three and a half short years, that contract will be off your books.)

Enter Agent Zero, along with the return of Turk, and the departure of Carter and the same offensive struggles. In fact, the Magic's three new horsemen rode in to be the three worst offensive players on the floor in Tuesday's loss to Dallas. Gilbert Arenas, in particular, was horrific on both ends, blowing rotations defensively and firing his usual assortment of questionable shots on offense. Had he been replaced by any randomly selected D-League point guard, Orlando might very well have won.

Obviously it's too early to proclaim success or failure with the Magic's midseason reconstruction project, but the entire rationale behind the trade was that this team no longer appeared to be a legitimate contender. But they've taken a huge risk to get back to that level and it's unsure, at best, whether it will succeed.

Similarly, only a fool would dismiss the Lakers at this point. We've seen them look far worse than this -- last March, for instance -- and recover. Our puzzlement, instead, is that a Western Conference that seemingly was going to be a one-team race now looks to have at least three horses worthy of a wager … and it's debatable whether L.A. should still be considered the favorite of the three.

Fifty games remain for each of these teams to get their acts together, and with elite talents like Howard and Bryant as linchpins, it's certainly possible they recover in time to make their usual deep playoff run this spring. That said, virtually everyone's list of the top four contenders heading into this season included both Orlando and the Lakers. Neither has played like a top-four team to date.

 
The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in The Association.
[h3]

[h3]Question: Better "Big Three," the Los Angeles Lakers or Miami Heat?[/h3]

BROUSSARD: Ever since Miami's Big Three came together, they've been getting compared to other Big Threes. So how do they stack up against Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom? While L.A. obviously has a great trio, I think LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh are superior.

BUCHER: Obviously there are different ways to measure a Big Three: a comparison of each player's pure gifts; how the three players fit together on the court; their time-tested accomplishments. But as physically imposing as Wade and LeBron can be, particularly in transition, and as much incredible hype as the Wade-LBJ-Bosh marriage has received, I don't see one of those categories in which I'd take the Heat trio over the Lakers' three of Kobe, Gasol and Odom. I'm truly interested in hearing why you would.

CB: At this point, there's no doubt the Lakers' chemistry tops that of Miami. But as time goes on and the Heat's trio continues to gel, it will become more potent than L.A.'s "Big Three."

I put L.A.'s "Big Three" in quotes because I'm not sure Odom qualifies as the third guy. Many would argue that Andrew Bynum is the third guy. I would certainly argue that he's been a bigger factor in their past two titles than Odom (not to diminish LO's importance). So you may be arguing for a "Big Two-and-a-Half."

RB: Claiming that Odom doesn't deserve to be considered part of the Big Three over Bynum is a huge disservice to his contributions over the last two seasons and especially this one, where he's played at an All-Star level. Mr. Inconsistency has 13 double-doubles already and is shooting nearly 60 percent from the floor and 37.5 from the arc, both career highs. He's contributed at least six and as many as 17 boards every night.

CB: Face it, for as much heat as LeBron, Bosh and Wade have gotten this season, they've been more effective than Kobe, Pau and Odom. Their records are virtually identical, and the Lakers' schedule has been a cakewalk. Los Angeles has only beaten two teams with winning records and is 2-3 against winning clubs. One of those wins was against a Chicago Bulls team without Carlos Boozer. Later in the season, when Boozer played, Chicago beat L.A. The other "quality win" was against a Portland Trail Blazers team that's barely over .500.

If the Lakers were under the same scrutiny as Miami, the sky would be falling in LA-LA Land. And fact is, if Bynum weren't coming to the rescue, folks would really be panicking.

Meanwhile, the Heat are 5-7 against teams with winning records, which is a slightly better winning percentage than Lakers' (.416 vs. .400). Plus, the Heat have beaten better teams -- Utah, Atlanta, Orlando, New Orleans, New York -- than L.A. has. The Heat have played more than twice as many winning teams (12 to five) than the Lakers, yet they have a better point differential, outscoring teams by an average of 9.4 points per game to 7.6 for the Lakers.

When you consider that L.A.'s Big Three has a better supporting cast (Bynum, Ron Artest, Derek Fisher), a better coach and has been together for years (versus two months for Miami), I'd say the Heat's group has been better.

RB: I have no doubt the Heat's chemistry will improve over time, but there's an inherent flaw in their makeup that will prevent them from ever achieving what the Lakers' Big Three has achieved: They can't impact the game without the ball. Forget the offensive side of the ball for a minute: Kobe, Pau and LO are all versatile and premier defenders at their positions. I can't say that about Bosh, Wade still gambles too much and LeBron is very good when he chooses to be -- he just doesn't always make that choice.

No one's making much of how the Lakers are playing because they've made three consecutive runs to the Finals and are determined to make a fourth. They know the level they have to play at and they know when they have to play at that level; November/December is not the time. And I'm sorry, but I don't think the two-time defending champions look at any part of their schedule as being something they can't squeeze an eight-game winning streak out of, no matter who they're playing or where.

That's what disappoints me about the Heat's Big Three: They should be the hungriest team in the league, bar none, and yet fire and energy and attention to detail are the elements they consistently lack. The teams they've beaten are teams they can physically overwhelm with their speed. I don't know that they've out-executed a team yet. When Boston's Big Three came together for the first time, they pounced on opponents from Day 1. I didn't hear any of them suggesting Doc Rivers was playing them too many minutes or asking them to go too hard in practice.

The biggest part of the Lakers' arsenal that the Heat Big Three doesn't have, though, is the ability to execute under pressure as a unit. When it comes to that, the Heat are not even the league's second-best Big Three. Because for all of Kobe, Pau and LO's amazing athleticism and physical gifts, it is their ability to play off each other by cutting, passing and moving without the ball that sets them apart. And that is how playoff games are decided and "Big Three" monikers are truly earned.

CB: Members of the Lakers' trio don't really overlap, like LeBron and D-Wade do to a degree. But much of what you mentioned as an advantage for the Lakers -- the cutting, passing and moving without the ball -- is due to Phil Jackson and the Triangle, not the Big Three themselves. Give Miami's Big Three Phil Jackson and they'd be better in those areas as well.

RB: No doubt the Triangle requires players to move and cut and pass, but to suggest all a player -- any player -- needs is to have a coach who can teach him the system is simply not true. Certainly not at the NBA level. A player doesn't learn how to do those things because he's in the system, a player functions in the system because he can do those things. Or to put it another way: Take away isolations and pick-and-rolls from Wade, LeBron and Bosh and I'm sure they'd still be very good. But to suggest they'd be even better because a coach forced them into a pass-and-cut system is a leap of faith nothing in their careers justifies.

CB: I agree that the Miami Big Three is still a work in progress on the offensive end. But they've been terrific defensively. Miami has the top-ranked defense in the league -- No. 1 in opponents' field-goal percentage (.425), points allowed (91.5) and opponents' 3-point percentage (.307), all by a wide margin -- and LeBron and Wade are the main reasons for that. Fact is their defense generates plenty of their offense. It's practically unheard of for a team with no significant presence in the middle to lead the league defensively but, because of LeBron's and Wade's length and athleticism on the perimeter, they've been able to do it.

Defensively, I'd take the Heat's Big Three over L.A.'s any day. Kobe has slowed down because of age to the point that he's no longer a lockdown guy. And Pau and Odom have been known for playing soft. Even against a much lighter schedule, the Lakers are allowing teams to shoot much better (.436) than the Heat are. And that still-solid percentage is largely due to Artest, not so much the Big Three.

RB: Slow your roll on that great defense. Just as the Lakers have played a load of lightweight opponents, the Heat's schedule has been littered with the worst offensive teams in the league. Among the 10 worst shooting teams in the league, the Heat have played nine of them, four of them twice. They've been good on the defensive end, but not great. As for comparing the Lakers' and Heat's respective Big Threes right now, I suppose if you closed one eye and somehow narrowed the focus to the first 25 games of this season, you could come up with statistics that somehow suggested the Heat are superior. But it requires turning a blind eye to far too many other factors.

As for Pau and Odom being soft, that's all relative. Compare them to Boston's front line and sure, they're more finesse than fire. But they've proved to be tougher than everybody else, including a very physical Denver Nuggets frontline two years ago. The same can't be said for your Big Three. Big men around the league routinely pound Bosh, and LeBron, for all his willingness to draw contact with a full head of steam, shies away from the post and fighting for rebounds.

CB: The Lakers have had years to hone their chemistry under the greatest coach ever (particularly in the chemistry department), and Miami has been playing together for less than two months. Admittedly, LeBron and Wade aren't the greatest fit together, but they are two of the best and most spectacular wings of this generation. They've shown over the past three weeks that they're learning quickly: LeBron is posting a little more, both are moving better without the ball and neither is pounding his dribble repeatedly for 14 seconds anymore. And Bosh has found his place in the system as well. Their numbers over the past month have been monstrous, with all three shooting over 50 percent, Bosh averaging 18 and 9, LeBron 24, 6 and 6, and Wade 27 and 7 boards. And they're clearly still a ways away from fulfilling their potential.

Heck, give Miami's Big Three Bynum, Fisher, Steve Blake, Artest, Shannon Brown and Phil Jackson and they'd defeat, L.A.'s Big Three plus Carlos Arroyo, Mario Chalmers, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Erick Dampier, James Jones and Erik Spoelstra.

RB: Years to gel? The Lakers added Gasol halfway through the season and went to the Finals the same year. That was a Lakers team that started Vladimir Radmanovic at power forward and had Sasha Vujacic as the sixth man. Whatever Pau's and LO's failings were in the Finals against Boston, they combined with Kobe to get them there with one championship-caliber role player (Fisher). By that measure, if Miami's Big Three is as superior as you say, the Heat have no excuses for not getting to the Finals this year.

Of course the Heat Big Three's numbers are monstrous right now: it's the regular season and the entire game plan is geared toward them, to the point of letting them take turns and keeping one of them off the floor so they can get their "numbers" without stepping on each other. And here are a few other "spectacular" wings from the last generation: Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and Carmelo Anthony. Common integer: phenomenal individual talents who were given a pass on their failings, the blame landing on the players and coaches around them. Only as we found out later, there was something missing (though the jury's still out on Melo) in them -- the ability to be fully effective in a system not tailored for them. Now you're telling me Wade, LeBron and Bosh would all step right into the Triangle -- a system unlike anything they've ever played in -- and not only make it work for them, but for a shifting cast around them to win multiple championships. I'll give you this: That presumption is on the same level as talking about winning seven titles. Without having won one.

[/h3]

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by CP1708

All of a sudden Gortat is Wilt in his prime. 

 

The deal was Hedo for Gortat/Pietrus and #1 then.  VC and JRich are both expirings.  I would hardly call Gortat/Pietrus a win for anybody, and I LOVE Pietrus's game/heart. 



And Memphis made a killing in the Pau deal, people are just too stupid to see that. 

Wilt in his prime. Not sure how you surmised that from what I said but I'm not surprised

Memphis made a killing. Once again, not sure how you surmised but not at all surprised

Memphis definitely scored big time with Marc, but that was hardly the point I was making.

 

[ex carrabba fan]

Originally Posted by CP1708

All of a sudden Gortat is Wilt in his prime. 

 

The deal was Hedo for Gortat/Pietrus and #1 then.  VC and JRich are both expirings.  I would hardly call Gortat/Pietrus a win for anybody, and I LOVE Pietrus's game/heart. 



And Memphis made a killing in the Pau deal, people are just too stupid to see that. 

Wilt in his prime. Not sure how you surmised that from what I said but I'm not surprised

Memphis made a killing. Once again, not sure how you surmised but not at all surprised

Memphis definitely scored big time with Marc, but that was hardly the point I was making.

 

[CP1708]

Memphis acquired FIVE assets for 1 second level star.  Pau is a career #2, as evidenced by ZERO playoff wins in 3 series with Memphis. 

But they got 3 #1 picks, a young 7 footer, AND 10 mil expiring.  5 assets.  For 1 star, that was a borderline franchise guy. 

Now you can argue Memphis didn't do enough with the money, or draft the picks correctly, or whatever, that's on their front office, but in the trade in and of itself, they did better then any other team that has moved a solid star. 

 

[CP1708]

Memphis acquired FIVE assets for 1 second level star.  Pau is a career #2, as evidenced by ZERO playoff wins in 3 series with Memphis. 

But they got 3 #1 picks, a young 7 footer, AND 10 mil expiring.  5 assets.  For 1 star, that was a borderline franchise guy. 

Now you can argue Memphis didn't do enough with the money, or draft the picks correctly, or whatever, that's on their front office, but in the trade in and of itself, they did better then any other team that has moved a solid star. 

 

[N41D]

Come on, man... That trade hasn't played out as badly as it originally looked, but they traded a Top 20 player in basketball for what has turned out the be cap space that turned into nothing and a center that, on a playoff team, is probably AT BEST your 3rd, probably your 4th best player... Meh.

The Lakers robbed them. Period.

 

[N41D]

Come on, man... That trade hasn't played out as badly as it originally looked, but they traded a Top 20 player in basketball for what has turned out the be cap space that turned into nothing and a center that, on a playoff team, is probably AT BEST your 3rd, probably your 4th best player... Meh.

The Lakers robbed them. Period.