***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[Nike Jordan]

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

If it happened once, even ONE TIME, it means the progressives = the alt right. You know this but your dirty lib innuendo and conjecture tries to hide this FACT.

I mean it's easy to come up with snarky rebuttals to arguments I never made.


Conservatives have disproportionate electoral influence due to gerrymandering, geographic malapportionment, the senate, ect.

Progressives have disproportionate cultural influence, through overrepresentation in elite media, advertising demographics favoring younger more diverse audiences, and capture of cultural institutions ect


So when conservatives pursue censorship it tends to be through legislative action.
when progressives censor it's usually through cultural institution, elite manners, peer pressure ect.

I think there's been a pretty clear shift in progressives attitude towards censorship.
as long as it's framed as protecting marginalized communities.

and rise in popularity of the speech as violence framework,

which for example had the American Booksellers Association calling the distribution of a book
"a serious violent incident"


If you want to say "hey what conservatives are doing is worse"?
sure, maybe

"or that the shift in progressive attitudes on censorship is a good thing!"
okay fine, minds can differ.


but let's not pretend like the left is some bastion of free expression in 2021.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

and I think the reason why many progressives are so comfortable confronting local government book bans,
and so insistent that we leave all the decision making in the hands of teachers

has less to do with a commitment to free expression,
and more to do with the fact as I said, teachers are to the left of public

and so people on the left feel confident teachers will more closely mirror their values
more than the gang of 40+ year old white women who run the PTA in *insert name of suburb of mid sized city.

essentially "censorship for thee, but not for me"

 

[elpablo21]

Progressives have disproportionate cultural influence, through overrepresentation in elite media

Genuinely asking. Examples of this in the American political sphere?

 

[noskey]

osh kosh bosh I'm not going to argue with you. I will just say that you take outliers, as RustyShackleford noted, and try to prop them up as counterpoints to try and draw whataboutisms between ideologies where one side constantly engages in these acts and the rest of said side supports it wholeheartedly. A lot.

And dont pretend "the left" defending teachers' decisions on books/teaching plans/etc is about anything except defending the teaching of facts, which the right is aggressively trying to rewrite or erase altogether. This has nothing to do with "liberal censorship" unless you wish to watch the rewriting of history happen unimpeded.
If you take issue with so-called cancel culture for trans-rights groups standing up for themselves and trying to dissuade the circulation of anti-trans/ anti-gay materials, I don't know why you'd criticize their attempts at censorship of hate. Like you're borderline defending the "tolerance of intolerance" in your post above.

If those arent your intentions with your posts like "libs burn books too!" or "censorship for conservatives but none for progressives!" then I have no idea what your goal is. Your weird contrarianism against anything Progressive in here is mind bottling sometimes.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Genuinely asking. Examples of this in the American political sphere?

The key advertising demographic is 18-34 year olds.

So naturally media production is heavily weighted towards the interest and values of younger a more diverse audience, who are much more progressive than the median voter.

So movies, music, tv, cultural criticism. All the people producing stuff (including me) are to the left of the general population.

Plus education polarization has shifted college educated people further to the left culturally,
Academia, and in much of corporate America besides like the oil industry, the workforce is also more progressive than the avg voter.

That’s why you get this dynamic where the loudest voices calling to remove Dave Chappelle from Netflix for example are coming from inside the company, and elite media institutions and not like the general Netflix customer.

The concerns of young progressive taste makers are always going to be over indexed relative to their raw population in a lot of media production.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

osh kosh bosh I'm not going to argue with you. I will just say that you take outliers, as RustyShackleford noted, and try to prop them up as counterpoints to try and draw whataboutisms between ideologies where one side constantly engages in these acts and the rest of said side supports it wholeheartedly. A lot.

I’m not drawing any whataboutism,
Whataboutism implies I’m attempting to distract from what conservatives are doing.

I’m not, it’s bad. I’ve said as much.
When it comes to art I’m personally very permissive when it comes to what I think young people should have the opportunity to access.

And I find book banning zeal by conservative to be mostly cynical political strategy,
Mixed with some reactionary irrational hysteria.

I think it’s okay for me to say that’s bad and also point out some hypocrisy on my side of the isle.

And dont pretend "the left" defending teachers' decisions on books/teaching plans/etc is about anything except defending the teaching of facts, which the right is aggressively trying to rewrite or erase altogether. This has nothing to do with "liberal censorship" unless you wish to watch the rewriting of history happen unimpeded.

I don’t need to pretend, you are literally demonstrating my point for me.
Just look you begin with defence of free expression…and then

If you take issue with so-called cancel culture for trans-rights groups standing up for themselves and trying to dissuade the circulation of anti-trans/ anti-gay materials, I don't know why you'd criticize their attempts at censorship of hate. Like you're borderline defending the "tolerance of intolerance" in your post above.

But then is supportive of the censorship surpression of ideas you don’t like.
It’s only a principle if it applies to ideas you disagree as well as the one you don’t

The book they were describing as “violence” contains arguments I’d probably disagree with
But the idea that it is tantamount to “violence” is absurd. And it’s a thin cover for censorship.

Aka censorship is okay as long as I can frame at it as protecting minority groups.

That’s why it reads to me as censorship for thee and not for me.

If those arent your intentions with your posts like "libs burn books too!" or "censorship for conservatives but none for progressives!" then I have no idea what your goal is. Your weird contrarianism against anything Progressive in here is mind bottling sometimes.

I don’t know what you want from me exactly?
Do you need me to say “conservatives are bad” before any critique of the left?

The point of thee initial joke I made is it makes me feel good when progressives are anti censorship again.
And I hope it continues.

 

[noskey]

You got it. Be best and have a happy, healthy new year's.

 

[p0tat0 5alad]

Ahhh, I see we got our biweekly "this thing conservatives are doing is bad but let me take this opportunity to segue to a less prominent and less harmful occasion when progressives did something vaguely similar and when I get called out I acknowledge that the original thing is bad while still trying to equate the 2 things as equal to anyone that takes the bait by responding to me" post

Like clockwork

 

[RustyShackleford]

Conservatives are using their legislative power to pass laws to force censorship of things that bother them. They are setting up legal mechanisms to enforce their way.

Osh is trying to act that progressives having more mainstream cultural influence and some people on the left using that sometimes to attack people that espouse views they don't like is pretty much the equivalent to conservatives actions. (Also, let us remember that conservatives engage in the same mob pressure that people get made at a subsection of progressives for, and conservatives do much more. This is conveniently left out of the equation)

He takes what is probably a reasonable point to such an extreme it becomes a false equivalency.

He doesn't even present cases I think illuminate the point better on how online mobs go to far.

David Brooks made a comment about the new breed of conservatives, and I feel if you change a few words, it can apply to "progressives are outta control gang"....

The NatCons are wrong to think there is a unified thing called “the left” that hates America. This is just the apocalyptic menace many of them had to invent in order to justify their decision to vote for Donald Trump.

They are wrong, too, to think there is a wokeist Anschluss taking over all the institutions of American life. For people who spend so much time railing about the evils of social media, they sure seem to spend an awful lot of their lives on Twitter. Ninety percent of their discourse is about the discourse. Anecdotalism was also rampant at the conference—generalizing from three anecdotes about people who got canceled to conclude that all of American life is a woke hellscape. They need to get out more.

In a political discussions, when your comeback to a trends legislative action is some reaches about progressives I don't think that person is interested in having a good faith discussion.

To me, at this point, it is not an idea I feel is worth engaging with. You guys fell free.

Happy Nee Year to Everyone though

 

[Methodical Management]

Struggle bait in 2022?

Bad news for dems bot?

Maple Maher?

MGTOW YouTube Bros?

Save your precious time for those who engage in good faith, not low effort, low info contrarians.


To those who actually perform research before forming an opinion, not in a slapdash effort to provide ex post facto justification for an "edgy" hot take, whose ethical considerations exceed the scope of their own personal privilege, and who sacrifice for the benefit of others, I wish you and yours a safe and prosperous New Year.

Everybody else:

 

[Sharpshoeter13]

Oz reminds me of him…

 

[gry60]

Progressives have disproportionate cultural influence, through overrepresentation in elite media, advertising demographics favoring younger more diverse audiences, and capture of cultural institutions ect

That's not true. You're confusing the spending demo to the demo that shapes culture, especially in the context of American politics.

The largest news network in the US is Fox News.

The largest radio/streaming stations are right-wing.

The largest papers in terms of geographical reach are owned by right wing entities.

There was even a study published a couple of weeks ago that showed that social media amplifies the right wing.

You really need to readjust your understanding of what the cultural elite of this country is.

You're paying too much attention to the millionaire celebrities and ignore the billionaires who pay them.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

That's not true. You're confusing the spending demo to the demo that shapes culture, especially in the context of American politics.

it is true, popular culture tends to reflects the interests of a younger audience.
half of fox news programming is complaining about this fact.

fox news being incredibly popular news programming is evidence of the rule.
I didn't say all other demographics are worth zero dollars, the most important demographic is worth the most and thus media production tilts towards the interests of that audience.

a big part of fox news power is because they have had zero competitors for ages,
why? because everyone is going after the younger more valuable demographic.

if 50+ year old living in suburbs were really just as important a demographic
Fox news would not have basically zero competition until newsmax and oan popped up.

I've seen it up close as part of my job I promise you everyone is trying to target the key demo

The largest news network in the US is Fox News.

The largest radio/streaming stations are right-wing.

The largest papers in terms of geographical reach are owned by right wing entities.

lolwut? how old are you?

I hate to break it to you, over the air television, radio, and newspapers are not the most culturally influential forms of media.

if that were the case the new york times would be doing profiles on the lead actor in "Blue Bloods" or something and not Succession.

You really need to readjust your understanding of what the cultural elite of this country is.

You're paying too much attention to the millionaire celebrities and ignore the billionaires who pay them.

you need to stop over thinking something that is just plainly true.

I hate to break it to you but the vast majority of film, television, advertising, social media strategy is made with intention of reaching younger more progressive people.
ive seen it up close, and it's just pretty obvious if you like use your eyes and stop acting

like progressives are under seige in every sphere of life.

 

[IATT]

dwalk31 it was never alarming to you that you supported people for years who regularly attacked Sesame Street?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Ahhh, I see we got our biweekly "this thing conservatives are doing is bad but let me take this opportunity to segue to a less prominent and less harmful occasion when progressives did something vaguely similar and when I get called out I acknowledge that the original thing is bad while still trying to equate the 2 things as equal to anyone that takes the bait by responding to me" post

Like clockwork

Again I really do not understand this line of reasoning,
every criticism of the left must prefaced with a condemnation of the right?

"less prominent and less harmful"
Rather than acknowledging that the point I was making is plainly true.
you wanna segue to these value judgments.

like I said, if you think what conservatives are doing is worse, fine okay. minds can differ.
but you should just acknowledge what I said was accurate.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Struggle bait in 2022?



Bad news for dems bot?



Maple Maher?



MGTOW YouTube Bros?



Save your precious time for those who engage in good faith, not low effort, low info contrarians.


To those who actually perform research before forming an opinion, not in a slapdash effort to provide ex post facto justification for an "edgy" hot take, whose ethical considerations exceed the scope of their own personal privilege, and who sacrifice for the benefit of others, I wish you and yours a safe and prosperous New Year.

Everybody else:

Lol this is rich coming from a boilerplate progressive opinion bot.

I can always count on you to be a good source of whatever the "correct" opinion is
mixed between animated gifs of varying quality.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Osh is trying to act that progressives having more mainstream cultural influence and some people on the left using that sometimes to attack people that espouse views they don't like is pretty much the equivalent to conservatives actions.

I didn't say it was equivalent, in fact I said

If you want to say "hey what conservatives are doing is worse"?
sure, maybe

my point is
The left is anti censorship when it comes to government book bans
and I wish they kept that same energy when it came to cultural conflicts.
as it looks hypocritical when they don't.

not the "left is pretty much equivalent to the right"

 

[gry60]

it is true, popular culture tends to reflects the interests of a younger audience.
half of fox news programming is complaining about this fact.

fox news being incredibly popular news programming is evidence of the rule.
I didn't say all other demographics are worth zero dollars, the most important demographic is worth the most and thus media production tilts towards the interests of that audience.

a big part of fox news power is because they have had zero competitors for ages,
why? because everyone is going after the younger more valuable demographic.

if 50+ year old living in suburbs were really just as important a demographic
Fox news would not have basically zero competition until newsmax and oan popped up.

I've seen it up close as part of my job I promise you everyone is trying to target the key demo



lolwut? how old are you?

I hate to break it to you, over the air television, radio, and newspapers are not the most culturally influential forms of media.

if that were the case the new york times would be doing profiles on the lead actor in "Blue Bloods" or something and not Succession.



you need to stop over thinking something that is just plainly true.

I hate to break it to you but the vast majority of film, television, advertising, social media strategy is made with intention of reaching younger more progressive people.
ive seen it up close, and it's just pretty obvious if you like use your eyes and stop acting

like progressives are under seige in every sphere of life.

I stand by my statement that you are conflating the voting public and the spending public, and in terms of who has more influence on establishing the cultural norms of the country, the voting public matters a lot more than the spending public.

That's why I disagree with your understanding of who constitutes the cultural elite.

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I stand by my statement that you are conflating the voting public and the spending public, and in terms of who has more influence on establishing the cultural norms of the country, the voting public matters a lot more than the spending public.

That's why I disagree with your understanding of who constitutes the cultural elite.

im not, my entire point is that those are two separate things
and to be clear by influence over culture,
i mean the production of culture,l media, movies, tv, music, cultural criticism ect.

fox news has immense POLITICAL influence, because their viewer demographics are electorally over represented.

but it does not have equivalent cultural influence, hence why for example
Stacey Dash did not get cast in a bunch of projects after she blew up as a fox talking head.

if you wanna say political influence is more important fine, i don't disagree.

 

[gry60]

The left is anti censorship when it comes to government book bans
and I wish they kept that same energy when it came to cultural conflicts.

I fail to see where people on the left recommended government punishment (jail and/or fines) for people expressing ideas they disagree with and that are still within the bounds of the constitution.

People reacting to speech they seem offensive is not the same as authors being jailed/fined for speaking against government-approved ideas.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I fail to see where people on the left recommended government punishment (jail and/or fines) for people expressing ideas they disagree with and that are still within the bounds of the constitution.

People reacting to speech they seem offensive is not the same as authors being jailed/fined for speaking against government-approved ideas.

illustrating my point aka "censorship is okay as as long as you can frame it as protecting marginalized people."

you keep wanting to retreat to some question about weighing which side is worse left or right.
as I said, minds can differ. conservatives are generally worse on literally everything.

I wasn't commenting on who is better or who is worse
or that they are 100% equal.

going all the way back, my original point,

I am nostalgic for a time where the left was more strongly committed to the values free expression and anti censorship than I believe they are today.

that's it, stop adding all this sauce on it
but everyone wants to have an argument with an imaginary version of me.

 

[had pants]