***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[osh kosh bosh]

With a single word change, you’ve more elegantly and succinctly made the point I was trying to make to you a few weeks ago…

Well yah if cut what I said out of context.

Ive said back then and now don't think there is any point in scolding Palestinians for supporting Hamas.

I said;

like i think it's dumb to moralize about the Palestinian peoples support for Hamas given their situation.

Also my contention with Coates is saying there was no complexity by shifting to a morality of the specifics of the occupation.

I'd feel the exact same way if an Israeli was trying to justify settlement expension by shifting to the immorality of Hammas.

 

[IATT]

dwalk31

 

[Based Jesus]

Coates addressed that there are many things that are complex. Nothing complex about people in a country being treated as second class citizens, not being able to walk down certain streets, living in forced segregation, not having the same access to basic human needs. It’s not complex in America, it’s not complex in Canada, its not complex in South Africa, it’s not complex in Nigeria, and it’s not complex in Palestine.

When the American government came to my country in the 1940s to build their base and spy on everyone south of Florida, they showed up with maps and pointed to where they wanted to build, ignoring whoever already lived there. The British, who were still in control, didn't care and gave permission. We weren't consulted at all. When we finally were we said, "We're not moving". So America built gates, issued passes to every man, woman and child and controlled everyone's movement in the area. When they got sick of doing that they turned the guns on us, bulldozed people's homes and forced us to move. THEN they only sent down white soldiers and imported segregation to our majority black island to maintain hegemony during their thankfully short stay.

They had very complex motivations for why they did that to us during WW2. I grew up here, I heard all of them. I don't care and I'll pass on playing along when someone asks me to care about the potential motivations and moralities of disproportionally powerful occupiers, the larger complexities that encourage them to violate the rights and dignities of another people because they also have enemies. Of course they do, they created some of them. It's weak justification, a distraction and a waste of time.

 

[IATT]

 

[Mark Antony]

Wait a state surgeon general gets paid more than everyone else?

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

Well yah if cut what I said out of context.

Honestly wasn’t my intention. Also wasn’t my intention to come off as much of a “gotcha” as I did above. Apologies

Ive said back then and now don't think there is any point in scolding Palestinians for supporting Hamas.

My objection at the time was your contention that it was “easy” to describe the atrocities committed by Hamas as immoral. My point then, and I would extend the same thing now to the Israeli bombing campaign, is that it wasn’t a particularly helpful point to make, and perhaps even harmful.

The complexity of the situation will not be resolved by appeals to morality when both sides, both justifiably and not, believe they have morality (and God!) on their side. Also, people can be extremely self-destructive if they believe they are acting with some moral imperative. Finally, the complicated history of the region makes it fairly impossible to suss out morality… who hit whom first?

The focus, I think, should be on the outcomes that are acceptable and the pathway to get there.

Perhaps related to the Coates discussion… one thing the last 2 months had in common with the prior 10 years “status quo” is that both approaches fail to get to acceptable outcomes.

 

[DLF]

Yup. Makes sense

 

[aepps20]

that crowd size is awful. Where did they hold this? In someone's barn?

 

[RustyShackleford]

Dr Delk really outchea making road trips with Ron

 

[biggie62]

441k government job? Jesus. Doctors in NYC make like 200-250k and he’s getting that in Florida.

 

[dacomeup]

yah but this just elides the actual issue imo.

when people say that isreal-palestine is "complex" they aren't referring to the specific action of "forced segregation" ect.

He was specific about HIS point. And I def disagree. There are plenty of Zionists and people who would otherwise consider themselves progressive who rationalize away why this is necessary, especially under the guise of safety. I’ve witnessed and been a part of these very conversation.

Is there some serious constituency of believe what is happening Gaza is a moral good?
Who is this aimed at? It just seems like another argument formulated to persuade no one.

There’s a serious constituency who believes that it’s justified. Absolutely.

 

[dacomeup]

Now I think it falls short in some areas and won't solve the conflict, but I do see some value in people having a clear picture of the current power dynamics and forces at play. And yes, engaging with the fact that what Israel is doing, and the US is supporting, is worse than a lot of people realize. Way worse.

I think this is probably the most important part.

 

[Belgium]

This is the most Eric Adam’s story ever.

Apparently this raid was more important for Adams than his meetings at the highest level to discuss what he himself has described as a "crisis"
Afterwards he then claims he "hasn't spoken" to the target of the raid and that he has zero concerns he could ever be part of the investigation. Yet he couldn't wait even a single day.

 

[IATT]

dwalk31

 

[wavycrocket]

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

wonder how often he has been called antisemitic……

 

[moonman818]

They'll just say it's fiction or you're not supposed to actually believe the things they say to the public.

 

[rexanglorum]

North America is so complicated, I am no expert in this troubled part of the world. So I can’t really say who is in the wrong or in the right.
I personally have my issues with the US’ current leadership, but we have to remember that the European settlers were fleeing religious persecution. And, some of their settlements were raided by the so called indigenous people. Even to this day, some European settlers in North America have been victims of crime at the hands of the so called natives (I don’t know why they don’t go and join their own people in Nunavut or Chiapas). But for those native Americans living on reservations, they clearly elected the wrong leadership. If they elected the right leaders, their reservations would be prosperous. But they are a people who are skeptical of technology. In 2016, the US tried to help them by building an oil pipeline and the Indians and their so-called allies, the naive useful idiots from off the reservation, opposed its construction. Some Indians only want to destroy things.

Any way, it’s complicated. But the US has a right to defend itself. Also, the US has a bunch of startups and it made the California Central Valley bloom.

Also, please do not show pictures of powwows or do land acknowledgements. Us anglos are scared. Us anglos are tired. Us Anglos are smol beans uWu. But us Anglos are working toward peace in the region but the Indians need to step up and denounce Indian terrorists BEFORE that can happen.

 

[Belgium]

Congrats to Meadows for finding a situation where he is somehow the lesser piece of ****

 

[yobyellav]

441k government job? Jesus. Doctors in NYC make like 200-250k and he’s getting that in Florida.

Man 250k can’t be right for physicians in ny

Congrats to Meadows for finding a situation where he is somehow the lesser piece of ****

So the publishers thought he was telling the truth when he wrote the election was stolen?

 

[RustyShackleford]

Mans violated the "No Cap" clause

 

[Belgium]

Man 250k can’t be right for physicians in ny

So the publishers thought he was telling the truth when he wrote the election was stolen?

I don't know if their legal argument has any real weight but to some extent I can get the idea of filing a lawsuit because the author turns out to have lied through most of it. Maybe there is some hypothetical scenario where you could genuinely argue the author scammed you.
When the principal lie is 'Trump is the real winner of the election' though...come on now

It's like publishing a flat earth book and then complaining that the author scammed you by lying about gravity.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]