***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[IATT]

 

[05fordgt]

i dont know whether to laugh or cry emoji. this guy is dumber than rocks.

Let's just say what he is, an a**hole!!

 

[yobyellav]

i dont know whether to laugh or cry emoji. this guy is dumber than rocks.

He is. I know someone who was on a call with him and other government officials during Covid. After he spoke, someone instinctively asked was he being serious.

 

[letsgetit22]

GET YOUR OWN GRIFT.

Lol
Ay man, I'm trying to get this maga money too. Student loan payments are due.

 

[dacomeup]

Most Jewish people are not holocaust survivors, most Israeli Jews were born in Israel. I am talking about today.

Jews today are responding to today's threats. Any appearance of a lack of addressing today's threats just undermines the progressive argument.

It’s been extremely rare for me to see the discussion of today’s threats without reference to the historical persecution and genocide of Jews. Even as pertains to simply understanding some of the antisemitic tropes, the historical context is often referenced.

I’ve seen more progressives condemning antisemitism than I’ve seen bad behavior, which obviously there is plenty of.

The airport video, harassment on college campuses, and the FBI saying antisemitic threats make up most of ethnic-based threats they track, defenses of Hamas' actions being stated publicly, the airport video, and Isareli Hamas' existence. All these things play a part.

All these things create an environment where Jewish people are more scared and some turn toward bad and morally bankrupt solutions. Not all Jews, but the bad actors on the Isareli side don't need majorities. Just a strong enough plurality.

I agree with this. I know the personal struggle for me is seeing the rationalization of bad behavior because of fear. Seems like support of what is right is conditional for some people, which leads me to question what they even believe in the first place.

 

[jpzx]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Coates is a national treasure.

Yah this is a miss for me from Coates.

These kind of sweeping moral statements, pretending the complexity of the situation is fake or some kind of illusion.
I just don't think is helpful at all.

Morality is just not going to carry the day, as I've said countless times when it comes to policing. the public will trade justice for safety every single time.
so we can say, what Isreal is doing is immoral till we are blue in the face. that's not a reason for them to stop.

Is there some serious constituency of believe what is happening Gaza is a moral good?
Who is this aimed at? It just seems like another argument formulated to persuade no one.

sweeping moral statements just seem like a way of not engaging with the facts of the ground.

 

[RustyShackleford]

It’s been extremely rare for me to see the discussion of today’s threats without reference to the historical persecution and genocide of Jews. Even as pertains to simply understanding some of the antisemitic tropes, the historical context is often referenced.

Completely fair, and true

But I think if someone, like Coates, wants to talk about the current status of the conflict and talk about how people can accept this, then he can't just use

His fear and anxiety Jews feel are not just because of historical actions against Jews, there are active threats.

Knowing Hamas is around and wants to commit more acts of terror is gonna make people unwilling to do anything they even perceive (logically or illogically) might cause more Jewish deaths. Directly or Indirectly.

I’ve seen more progressives condemning antisemitism than I’ve seen bad behavior, which obviously there is plenty of.

I honestly can't call it either way

Of course, there have been numerous progressives calling out and denouncing antisemitism. But I think others have been too quick to hand-wave it in hopes of recentering the conservation/criticisms back on Israel.

But there are tons of bad takes, and tacit excusing of antisemitism, and of course excusing of genocide.

Like John Fetterman is outchea making a whole *** of himself right now

Just seems like a cluster****

I agree with this. I know the personal struggle for me is seeing the rationalization of bad behavior because of fear. Seems like support of what is right is conditional for some people, which leads me to question what they even believe in the first place.

Which is fair

I think there are definitely people who are motivated by bigotry and look for avenues where they can live out their oppressive dreams under the guise of trying to keep Jews safe.

Unfortunately for everyone, especially the Palestinian people, one of those lowlifes runs Israel right now

 

[sharpshooter718]

This migrant issue is about to be a problem

 

[Based Jesus]

Yah this is a miss for me from Coates.

These kind of sweeping moral statements, pretending the complexity of the situation is fake or some kind of illusion.
I just don't think is helpful at all.

Morality is just not going to carry the day, as I've said countless times when it comes to policing. the public will trade justice for safety every single time.
so we can say, what Isreal is doing is immoral till we are blue in the face. that's not a reason for them to stop.

Is there some serious constituency of believe what is happening Gaza is a moral good?
Who is this aimed at? It just seems like another argument formulated to persuade no one.

sweeping moral statements just seem like a way of not engaging with the facts of the ground.

Now I know he was 100% right

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yah this is a miss for me from Coates.

These kind of sweeping moral statements, pretending the complexity of the situation is fake or some kind of illusion.
I just don't think is helpful at all.

Morality is just not going to carry the day, as I've said countless times when it comes to policing. the public will trade justice for safety every single time.
so we can say, what Isreal is doing is immoral till we are blue in the face. that's not a reason for them to stop.

Is there some serious constituency of believe what is happening Gaza is a moral good?
Who is this aimed at? It just seems like another argument formulated to persuade no one.

sweeping moral statements just seem like a way of not engaging with the facts of the ground.

I mean we all know what we are getting with Coates. He is honest about what avenue he drives in. It has always been that way.

And I think there should be a place for the commentary he does, even on this subject. That focuses on moral judgments. One because there are pundits that defend the Israel status quo with moral arguments, and there are pundits that focus squarely on gaming things out like it is fantasy football. Also, the increased liberal's criticisms of Israel I would guess had an effect on where sympathies lie among Democrats. Yeah more polarization, but at least more people have more honest views of things.

And I feel Coates point wasn't that the status quo was a moral good, and he is trying to disabuse them of that notion. It was that accepting it and making excuses for it is more morally bankrupt than most folk (especially pundits) let on.

Now I think it falls short in some areas and won't solve the conflict, but I do see some value in people having a clear picture of the current power dynamics and forces at play. And yes, engaging with the fact that what Israel is doing, and the US is supporting, is worse than a lot of people realize. Way worse.

I mean Bibi is a racist, white supremacist, corrupt, autocratic, and everything in between. And Bill Maher invited him on his show for a softball interview where they **** on progressives. There needs to be some counter to this that isn't simply "Hey, I don't think that is helping resolve things"

I think the focus of his commentary is generally okay, it is just some areas I think are lacking.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Now I know he was 100% right

that's funny because didn't even say he was wrong.

 

[dacomeup]

These kind of sweeping moral statements, pretending the complexity of the situation is fake or some kind of illusion.
I just don't think is helpful at all.

Coates addressed that there are many things that are complex. Nothing complex about people in a country being treated as second class citizens, not being able to walk down certain streets, living in forced segregation, not having the same access to basic human needs. It’s not complex in America, it’s not complex in Canada, its not complex in South Africa, it’s not complex in Nigeria, and it’s not complex in Palestine.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I mean we all know what we are getting with Coates. He is honest about what avenue he drives in. It has always been that way.=

I dunno I've always thought of Coates as more of a realist. Like I think of the case for reparations as taking a kind of moral idea and really making a case for it on the specifics and merits. but maybe im wrong.

And I think there should be a place for the commentary he does, even on this subject. That focuses on moral judgments. One because there are pundits that defend the Israel status quo with moral arguments, and there are pundits that focus squarely on gaming things out like it is fantasy football. Also, the increased liberal's criticisms of Israel I would guess had an effect on where sympathies lie among Democrats. Yeah more polarization, but at least more people have more honest views of things.

I get that i guess, I think I would agree more again if he just engaged on the specifics a bit more. because when you don't

it makes it seems like it's really just a lack of moral courage that is causing all of this rather than a complex web of competing pollical interests.
which imo fuels unproductive outrage that ends up kinda looking like anti semtism, even if it isn't.

Now I think it falls short in some areas and won't solve the conflict, but I do see some value in people having a clear picture of the current power dynamics and forces at play. And yes, engaging with the fact that what Israel is doing, and the US is supporting, is worse than a lot of people realize. Way worse.

I mean Bibi is a racist, white supremacist, corrupt, autocratic, and everything in between. And Bill Maher invited him on his show for a softball interview where they **** on progressives. There needs to be some counter to this that isn't simply "Hey, I don't think that is helping resolve things"

I think the focus of his commentary is generally okay, it is just some areas I think are lacking.

See I agree specific condemnation of Bibi actions and how this led us here I think would be great to see as a counter weight. but i dunno the soaring moral stuff doesn't move me.

because even tho it isn't the intention it seems to me it's inevitably going to kinda sound like anti semitism.

because if you squint it's not far off form

"a group a uniquely immoral powerful evil people are involved in a global conspiracy to annihilate innocents and steal land"

i can't really blame jewish people for looking with a jaundice eye.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Coates addressed that there are many things that are complex. Nothing complex about people in a country being treated as second class citizens, not being able to walk down certain streets, living in forced segregation, not having the same access to basic human needs. It’s not complex in America, it’s not complex in Canada, its not complex in South Africa, it’s not complex in Nigeria, and it’s not complex in Palestine.

yah but this just elides the actual issue imo.

when people say that isreal-palestine is "complex" they aren't referring to the specific action of "forced segregation" ect.

they are referring to the sprawling mix of historical context, political incentives and geopolitical interests that push both Isreal and Palestinians to pursue immoral actions.

so saying apartheid bad is never going to convince anyone, most people know it's not good, they just think it's necessary.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah, I think some progressives are undercutting themselves by not focusing on how uniquely ****ed up Bibi is.

I feel that is a stronger argument and gives it more legs.

The Israeli ultra right and their allies want people to see Hamas and the Palestinian people as one in the same because it benefits their nonsense and propaganda.

No reason to act like the entire Israeli population and the Netanyahu government are one in the same.

It gives Bibi and his cronies cover, and often sounds like you taking a swipe at Jews generally.

Gotta break the connection in people's mind.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yeah, I think some progressives are undercutting themselves by not focusing on how uniquely ****ed up Bibi is.

I feel that is a stronger argument and gives it more legs.

The Israeli ultra right and their allies want people to see Hamas and the Palestinian people as one in the same because it benefits them.

No reason to act like the entire Israeli population and the Netanyahu government are one in the same.

It gives Bibi and his cronies cover, and often sounds like you taking a swipe at Jews generally.

Need to break that tether in people's minds.

as i've been reading more about this,

Bibi I think is literarily the worst possible person to be in charge of Isreal at this time.

His corruption further empowering the Israelis right wing fringe,
his erosion of the rule of law.
the west bank settlements

he's never wanted peace, he's never wanted a two state or any solution
and in a sick way he's getting what he wants, domestic support to genocide the people of gaza.

 

[Wargames]

This is the most Eric Adam’s story ever.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

so we can say, what Isreal Hamas is doing is immoral till we are blue in the face. that's not a reason for them to stop.

Is there some serious constituency of believe what is happening Gaza is a moral good?
Who is this aimed at? It just seems like another argument formulated to persuade no one.

sweeping moral statements just seem like a way of not engaging with the facts of the ground.

With a single word change, you’ve more elegantly and succinctly made the point I was trying to make to you a few weeks ago…

 

[RustyShackleford]

This is the most Eric Adam’s story ever.

osh kosh bosh 's peoples really been letting him down this year. Good grief

Keep ya head up famb.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[Benny Hinn]

 

[had pants]