dacomeup
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Coates is a national treasure.
***Official Political Discussion Thread***
- Thread in 'General' Thread starter Started by rico x hood,
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Coates is a national treasure.
Nike Jordan
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RustyShackleford
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I agree with a lot of things he said. And his general sentiment about there being a moral failings of certain people, and pointing out how poorly Palestinians citizens are treated by Israeli forces.
But I think he being a bit naive to present the lack of a solution (to the entire conflict, not just the bombing campaign) as just being a moral failings by the people on the side of Israel.
And the shock he has as to why certain people on the side of Israel behave how they do. Like I might not agree with somethings, but I understand why good people turn towards certain solutions.
There is a credible threat of violence against Jewish people and Jewish Israelis. Not surprising people turn toward militarism and violence. I agree they shouldn't, it makes the situation worse. However, the more it is underplayed, the more otherwise reasonable people will be open to genocidal maniacs like Bibi.
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dacomeup
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I feel like he did express that last sentiment though. I also listened to Pal Fest yesterday. He expressed that Israel feels like a what could’ve been for Black Americans when you take the wrong lessons from your oppression. It’s definitely understandable, just morally reprehensible. I don’t think he sought to downplay antisemitism in any way during those comments today or yesterday.
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There's a credible threat of violence against everyone. Somehow we all don't create an oppressive state dedicated to a supremacist ideology that requires the displacement/genocide of an indigenous population. If every time we criticize Israel and Zionism we have to also be understanding of how both came to be we'll never get anywhere. There never has been or will be a legitimate excuse to monopolize violence against a people. It's in the search for excuses that the situation is made to be "complex" while oppression thrives. I once searched for excuses, I don't anymore. If a good man turns towards the solution of apartheid he is no longer a good man.
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RustyShackleford
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I think he is expressing it in a general way and then applying it to this situation but not digging deeper into why certain people on the side of Israel accept the status quo.
I think this comparison to the African-American civil rights struggle has some validity to give a general mental model think about this situation but it will break down in some areas upon further expectation. And those areas are important.
And I still think he is downplaying the role of antisemitism in all this, even if he doesn't realize it.
dacomeup
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Yea, I don’t think I agree. He mentioned (again mixing two days of his words so I could be wrong about which one I’m referencing) understanding the desire of Jewish people post-Holocaust for safety. He also mentioned that he’s never felt more unsafe anywhere than he did in Israel — which makes sense.
Obviously the Black American experience isn’t a 1 to 1 comparison for Israel/Palestine, but the general idea of being a second class citizen in your own country was what he was referencing. ID requirements, disparate access to government resources, police brutality and not even being able to access the same places as Israeli Jews is about as easy of a comparison to the Black American experience here as you can paint.
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RustyShackleford
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Of course, Jewish people are gonna be uniquely concerned about threats to Jewish people. This is normal behavior.
However, telling an ethnic group, "Yeah everyone gotta deal with it", is at best pointless and at worst counterproductive.
If there ever were to be a lasting peace in the area, one that ensures full civil rights for everyone, it would have to include a plan to ensure the protection of Israeli Jews.
It is a real issue that would need to be addressed. Any plan that involves trying to bring peace and true justice to the area and ignores this would not be a serious plan.
Dude, the situation evolved from decades of armed conflict, outside meddling, internal conflicts on both sides, etc.
The last time there was a glimmer of hope, and Israeli ultra-nationalist committed what was probably the most successful political assassination of all time.
This frames it like there is some straight path from Zionism being born in Europe, to what we see today.
I think understanding why forces and institutions came to be and the motivations driving them are important.
It shouldn't hold back valid criticism, but it is important to understand.
And I think it goes both ways. I hate Hamas, but I understand why they have support in the region from regular people.
I feel a better understanding of that point by everyone would do a lot of good.
There isn't.
However, there is no monopoly on violence in the region. This new conflict kicked off because Hamas committed a major act of terrorism. They launch missiles all the time.
This creates a situation in the ultra-right exploits. Bibi spent years legitimizing Hamas for political gain. Their attack seems like the culmination of his disgusting political project blowing up in his face.
Of course, Israel inflicts a disproportionate amount of violence on the Palestinian people because of the power dynamics in the country.
Too many people, including progressives, talk about the issues as though it is a problem mainly to do with the power dynamics being off.
That lands on the ears of a lot of regular scared people as though the issue is not enough Jews are being hurt.
Because this situation can't move forward unless Israel rids itself of its far-right influence on the conflict.
That is less likely to happen if their counterpart on the Palestinian side is still thriving.
An excuse is a reason to justify what is going on. What a ton of politicians are doing, including Joe Biden, are excuses. And I feel it is a morally bankrupt position to take.
But trying to understand the situation is not looking for excuses
My issue with this sentiment stretches beyond simply rejecting the excuses for how the Israeli government and its allies say to excuse their nonsense.
I think it is naive for people to think a conflict that has gone on this long, and evolved his much, is some simple fix.
I agree.
I think the moral judgments on this situation are clear
That doesn't make the situation any easier to fix.
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He specifically calls out the acceptance of the status quo in the west as a clear part of the problem, the constantly digging deeper to justify human rights abuses based on external threats. He even calls himself complicit in this. He directly states that it's seeing what the Israeli government has done with its power that has turned him towards non-violence because he believes that constant justifications corrupted the soul of an oppressed people until their country and culture reflected the one that oppressed his. Nowhere in there is an excuse for anti-semitism or a misunderstanding of why some Israelis embrace Zionism.
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RustyShackleford
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Yeah, I think would an example of him doing this though.
Most Jewish people are not holocaust survivors, most Israeli Jews were born in Israel. I am talking about today.
Jews today are responding to today's threats. Any appearance of a lack of addressing today's threats just undermines the progressive argument.
The airport video, harassment on college campuses, and the FBI saying antisemitic threats make up most of the ethnic-based threats they track, defenses of Hamas' actions being stated publicly, the airport video, and Isareli Hamas' existence. All these things play a part.
All these things create an environment where Jewish people are more scared and some turn toward bad and morally bankrupt solutions. Not all Jews, but the bad actors on the Isareli side don't need majorities. Just a strong enough plurality.
It does make sense.
The Israeli far-right sells people a bull**** sense of safety because it is an easy sell.
Real safety would take decades, hundreds of billions in aid, full rights and integration of Palestine in their own state and Israel, and probably many more Jewish Isareli lives being lost without there being a retaliation.
That is a harder sell. It is a bigger political and social project.
The far-right loves this situation.
In some ways, it mirrors Americans', especially white Americans, views on policing.
Create the **** situation by convincing enough people that the human cost of the **** situation will be not paid by them. And when the situation does inevitably lead to bad outcomes, you double down and say that only doing more of the bad stuff will yield a positive outcome.
You got hate, fear, propaganda, status quo bias, and sunk cost fallacy warping the **** outta people's minds. Hell, you don't even need the hate at that point.
I agree with all this
Just saying there are limits to the comparison. It really illuminating in some ways, but in other ways, it will fall apart. Coates doesn't spell out the limits, so I feel it is fair game to point out they exist.
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Since Our congress is so embarrassing and anyone can win, maybe I should run as a maga black man so I can cash out then vote along with the dems until I eventually lose the next election. Why not grift a few 100k in the process... 
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dragicon what is this clown talking about? Oil and gas is still strong here but the Western slope is all about the tourism dollars.
100%. I was thinking, she’s talking about a district that includes Durango, telluride, gunnison, and other places that are extremely wealthy
it’s clear she doesn’t spend any time in her actual district.Not to mention, there is still lots of oil and gas production in the south and western Colorado (not to mention tons of it on the eastern slope)
RustyShackleford
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Yeah, he made comments on other aspects of the issue. Some I happen to agree with and think were great.
That doesn't mean his points on everything were great.
And I didn't say he excused anti-semitism
And I said militarism and violence. Which are different things from Zionism
aepps20
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GET YOUR OWN GRIFT.Since Our congress is so embarrassing and anyone can win, maybe I should run as a maga black man so I can cash out then vote along with the dems until I eventually lose the next election. Why not grift a few 100k in the process...
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I'm Jewish with Iraqi/Iranian roots and I feel safer when I'm in the South Bronx.
That's how Israel operates. The whole country is overprotective, rightfully so. You feel on edge there, not because of what neighborhood you're in either.
Last summer I spent 2 weeks there. I was strip searched at a certain crossing, had to use a bomb shelter, taken off the plane when I boarded to fly there from the U.S, questioned in a private room numerous times when I departed from there at the airport.
I am not visibly Jewish (dont wear Yamaka or tzitzit in public). If you're a male between 20 to 40 years old with another male or solo, you will be questioned.
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Tension escalates on Lebanese frontier amid Hamas and Hezbollah barrages
Hamas armed wing the al-Qassam brigades says it hit border town, while Hezbollah claims attack on 19 Israeli positions
RustyShackleford
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I think the point is that the current situation in Israel came about because there has been no real effort for a while now to put in place a long lasting peace agreement, or even desclate the situation.
So people accept they hyper militarized situation like it is the only choice, when the alternative has been completely abandoned.
It is like saying we need Stop-n-Frisk because crime is bad, yet you don't take any of the hard steps to bring crime down anyway.
You just inconvenience everyone, and target certain ethnic groups under for "safety" reasons.
Yet they help keep in place the systems that make places unsafe.
So people accept they hyper militarized situation like it is the only choice, when the alternative has been completely abandoned.
It is like saying we need Stop-n-Frisk because crime is bad, yet you don't take any of the hard steps to bring crime down anyway.
You just inconvenience everyone, and target certain ethnic groups under for "safety" reasons.
Yet they help keep in place the systems that make places unsafe.
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