***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[dacomeup]

a Zionist could pull the same card;
"is baby burning ever complicated? I don't think terrorism against civilians is complicated. so obviously what we are doing is justified"

again you can yell genocide or apartheid or whatever morally loaded term you want to use.

but I don't see why anyone who doesn't already agree with you is going to be persuaded by that.


if anything it just perpetuates the status quo.

I’m sure apartheid was a morally loaded term in South Africa. I’m sure that genocide was a morally loaded term in Bosnia. The public opinion has vastly changed over the last month and people have been using “loaded terms” all around.

We can agree to disagree because I’m not sure that trying to appeal to staunch Zionists is what moves the needle.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I’m sure apartheid was a morally loaded term in South Africa. I’m sure that genocide was a morally loaded term in Bosnia. The public opinion has vastly changed over the last month and people have been using “loaded terms” all around.

different and unique situations that have their own complexities. again I understand it's much easier to just draw these comparisons and use these terms.
then it is to engage with messy reality on the ground but I don't think it's productive.

We can agree to disagree because I’m not sure that trying to appeal to staunch Zionists is what moves the needle.

of course it does, they are the ones with the guns. they are the ones that need to be convinced.
if you can't recognize the complexity of the situation, you lose all credibility with the people whose opinion actually matters.

and you perpetuate the status quo.

support for isreal in is still pretty US is strong. the "ity
's genocide it's simple!" argument isn't massively shifting the politics in America.

and even if it did Israel is a rich country, they don't need the US to perpetuate the status quo.
so ultimately like I keep saying, any solution has to be persuasive to Isreali's

 

[RustyShackleford]

Obama presidency as it relates to Israel imo underscores what a tough and complex spot Biden is in.

Obama was far tougher and more publicly critical of Israel than any US president. and what did it get him?

- The West Bank settlements only accelerated.
- American Zionists mobilized against him.
- Bibi tried his best to polarize the issue and make it as politically painful as possible.
- Support for Isreal in the American electorate remains high.
- Conditions for Palestinians did not improve.


Obama's analysis I think is correct, and for his troubles from what I can tell;

he's seen as pro Hamas equivocator on the right,
and a squish on Genocide by the far left.

damned if you do damned if you don't.

soi in light of all that im sympathetic to the idea that remaining supportive of Israel gives you some influence over a bad outcome
where as I think repudiating them gives you zero influence.

The thing is I am not very hopeful about the situation, and I think people should be honest and clear-eyed about what an uphill battle it is.

With Bibi still in power, the scope of the influence the US has over Israel is really narrow. Don't cut off power here, let some truck in there.

Until Israel gets leadership that is interested in peace and a multi-state solution, the status quo will remain in place.

And I don't think a coordinated message from the West is gonna move the needle in making that happen.

At least not anything soon.

So I don't blame people for prioritizing trying to reduce the loss of innocent lives.

 

[yobyellav]

This next 366 days man. God help us all.

It's like we're living a prequal to a prequal to one of those dystopian future movies.

You all know way more than me about the Israel/Palestine conflict. Think we can all agree it's complicated and the leadership in Israel is making this much worse. Oct 7 was wrong and terrorism. Israel's response has been tragically bad. The indiscriminate bombing of a place that is mostly citizens cannot be justified and it looks like it will only get worse.

 

[stuntman mike]

idk why i thought we would finally be rid of that prick when biden beat his ***. 2024 shaping up to finally give me that ulcer i been avoiding for so long.

 

[gry60]

Politically, the leadership on both sides is too far gone to have any dialogue.

This.

I don't understand the insistence on opining on the topic without acknowledging the internal dynamics of Palestine and Israel.

The most belligerent factions of the Israeli and Palestinian governments are in control, and they share the intent to ethnically cleanse/kill off the people on the other side.

Until Israel gets leadership that is interested in peace and a multi-state solution, the status quo will remain in place.

There's always been a sizeable portion of the Israeli population that was interested in peace, but the history of the conflict shows that it takes more than Israel's willingness to achieve it; all the other direct and indirect participants in this crisis have to be willing to accept the necessary compromises to come to a peace agreement, and they have to do it at the same time. So far, that hasn't happened yet (see the Camp David and Taba talks). To make matters worse, Hamas attacked the Israeli constituency that would theoretically support a two-state solution (kibbutzism is ideologically close to socialism), and that makes their presence at the negotiation table a non-starter.

 

[IATT]

 

[Based Jesus]

This.

I don't understand the insistence on opining on the topic without acknowledging the internal dynamics of Palestine and Israel.

The most belligerent factions of the Israeli and Palestinian governments are in control, and they share the intent to ethnically cleanse/kill off the people on the other side.

There is no palestinian government. That's part of the problem, they are a people without genuine representation in the region, completely beholden to the whims of a government that's actively hostile towards them.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This.

I don't understand the insistence on opining on the topic without acknowledging the internal dynamics of Palestine and Israel.

The most belligerent factions of the Israeli and Palestinian governments are in control, and they share the intent to ethnically cleanse/kill off the people on the other side.

because the loudest people on both sides want to sell the narrative that "it's not complicated"


and then use thought terminating cliches to avoid dealing with the fact that it's a genuinely difficult problem to solve with no easy solutions.


Right wingers say "it's terrorism. Israel has a right to defend itself, its simple!"
Left wingers say "it's settler colonialism, it's genocide, it's simple!"

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[aepps20]

idk why i thought we would finally be rid of that prick when biden beat his ***. 2024 shaping up to finally give me that ulcer i been avoiding for so long.

If we do what needs to be done by voting, getting our folks to vote and pushing back against the lies we will get this done. Polls are data that we can use to motivate us to do the hard work it will take to win. The American electorate is for the most part lazy, uninformed and wishy-washy. People get too comfortable when our side is running things. It took a pandemic and a financial crisis to get us the last two Democratic Presidents. Too many people don't realize Trump 2 is a possibility if we don't show up. Most of Biden's polling weakness is from softening support on our side which is encouraging. Trump isn't expanding his support he is just consolidating his existing support. This is helpful because it gives Joe time to shore up support. One thing I want to see from Joe is more campaign rallies late this year to early next. He can't wait until next summer to campaign. The constant campaign posture is how Trump has consolidated his support. Joe needs to do something similar. Kamala should be doing rallies in diverse communities right now.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[frink85]

 

[gry60]

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah, NC is ****** for a while

Maybe one day there will be a Democratic majority that can elect State Supreme Court Justices to strike down the gerrymandered maps.

But the best-case scenario is NC is 10-15 years away from that happening. Maybe they get lucky on election cycles

But **** is bleak

 

[RustyShackleford]

NY gotta gerrymander back though

 

[gry60]

Indiana woman crashes car into what she thought was Jewish school 'on purpose,' police say

A woman intentionally crashed her car into what she thought was a Jewish school because she was angry about the Israel-Hamas war, Indianapolis police said.

abc7chicago.com

Police said she had passed the Israelite School of Universal and Practical Knowledge several times, calling it the "Israel school," and told officers, "Yes, I did it on purpose."

Whole world gone crazy

 

[RustyShackleford]

Indiana woman crashes car into what she thought was Jewish school 'on purpose,' police say

A woman intentionally crashed her car into what she thought was a Jewish school because she was angry about the Israel-Hamas war, Indianapolis police said.

abc7chicago.com

Whole world gone crazy

Wait, wait, wait. Am I reading this right, the building belongs to Black Hebrew Israelites...

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[aepps20]

GOTV election day is today. Vote in your local elections.