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It's been this way regardless of automation in order to supplement the gap between the low manufacturing wages and putting food on the table.
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It's been this way regardless of automation in order to supplement the gap between the low manufacturing wages and putting food on the table.
EddieDoyers
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titanium tea
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Maybe if we all push mouses in trendy office spaces and drink lattes all day...buildings, highways, and infrastructure will jump out of high speed routers and fill the shelves at walmart at the same time.
You are suggesting leaving the manufacturing of necessities to other countries, like that is not a recipe for getting screwed big time.
E business fail all day everyday but I need toilet paper, cars, chicken, shelter etc etc etc.
What I have read here is that you think its crazy that america is talking about creating something tangible that you can hold......and it would be smarter to sell people useless online services.
Not really sustainable and short sighted imo...
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Here's the article that drew me there (the guardian covered the same topic):
http://www.redstate.com/diary/strid...ing-policy-running-washington-lining-pockets/
Apparently Ivanka and her husband are shopping for a home in DC and Trump met Al Gore to discuss climate change at the behest of his daughter (she wants it to be her issue apparently).
Then, there's the Trump Org having a lease in a federal building/land and making money off of it, the lawsuit between the US government and Deutsche Bank (Trump owes them a lot ofbmoney), and the head of the IRS who might be appointed by Trump (he is being audited).
I'm still waiting for our resident righties to say something about this whole arrangement.
Nike Jordan
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They are going to right to work states because of the lack of unions, the bargaining power of union drive up wages.
How the hell can someone be pro American worker but anti union
I'm all for American jobs but unions often screw over companies, and long term their members as well, in order to get absurd or sometimes even meaningless concessions in negotiations.
They were necessary decades ago to prevent workers from being treated like slaves. These days they generally exist to collect dues. Since they represent so many workers across so many companies they also don't care if they screw places into failure as long as they get to declare success in negotiations. "We got everybody big raises and prevented a dozen layoffs" (just ignore that the place was shut down and everyone lost their jobs a year later because of that).
I'm on mobile now so I can't find the links I have saved but the National Right To Work Committee has cited higher standards of living, after tax income, purchasing power and some other significant benefits in RTW states.
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Wait why are we trying to bring back manufacturing? Isn't that going backwards? Even a manufacturing based economy like China wants to move towards being a service based economy as their economy matures. What's going on?
RustyShackleford
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They are going to right to work states because of the lack of unions, the bargaining power of union drive up wages.
How the hell can someone be pro American worker but anti union
I'm all for American jobs but unions often screw over companies, and long term their members as well, in order to get absurd or sometimes even meaningless concessions in negotiations.
They were necessary decades ago to prevent workers from being treated like slaves. These days they generally exist to collect dues. Since they represent so many workers across so many companies they also don't care if they screw places into failure as long as they get to declare success in negotiations. "We got everybody big raises and prevented a dozen layoffs" (just ignore that the place was shut down and everyone lost their jobs a year later because of that).
I'm on mobile now so I can't find the links I have saved but the National Right To Work Committee has cited higher standards of living, after tax income, purchasing power and some other significant benefits in RTW states.
You don't see an inherent bias in your source?
And....
http://www.epi.org/publication/unions-decline-inequality-rises/
I'm not saying unions are perfect, but they have their benefits. Something else to consider. LINK
It is not only the bargaining power but the benefits package as well.
And yes, the free hand of the market does not discriminate, between union and non union. You citing union members losing their jobs means little.
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EddieDoyers
formerly eddiengambino
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A couple of people in the flyover states want their factory jobs back
They elected a guy that they will think will bring all those jobs back
At this point, we won't know if he will actually do it until it comes to 2020.
So far he got a service telecommunications company to promise 50,000 new jobs (no mention of manufacturing doe) and Carrier (which we all know most of jobs are still being outsourced while the current remaining manufacturing jobs will be lost to automation)
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Are Trump fans insufferable and delusional? Is Donald Trump a con man? Are most Trump supporters white supremacists? Yes, yes, yes and yes.
With all that said, we shouldn't forget the structural issues in our economy. There aren't many good jobs for people who cannot go to grad school, do an unpaid interneship and afford to live in New York, DC., LA and a handful of other cities. Barack Obama couldn't solve that problem, Trump will not be able to solve that problem and the fact that genuine middle class jobs are increasingly being sequestered deep within unaffordable cities and are being handed down like family heirlooms will drive our politics for years and years to come.
Every American should have ample opportunities even if they only went to high school and even if they want to stay in the community of their birth and I am appalled that so many liberals are suddenly sneering at that simple proposition.
With all that said, we shouldn't forget the structural issues in our economy. There aren't many good jobs for people who cannot go to grad school, do an unpaid interneship and afford to live in New York, DC., LA and a handful of other cities. Barack Obama couldn't solve that problem, Trump will not be able to solve that problem and the fact that genuine middle class jobs are increasingly being sequestered deep within unaffordable cities and are being handed down like family heirlooms will drive our politics for years and years to come.
Every American should have ample opportunities even if they only went to high school and even if they want to stay in the community of their birth and I am appalled that so many liberals are suddenly sneering at that simple proposition.
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They are going to right to work states because of the lack of unions, the bargaining power of union drive up wages.
How the hell can someone be pro American worker but anti union
I'm all for American jobs but unions often screw over companies, and long term their members as well, in order to get absurd or sometimes even meaningless concessions in negotiations.
They were necessary decades ago to prevent workers from being treated like slaves. These days they generally exist to collect dues. Since they represent so many workers across so many companies they also don't care if they screw places into failure as long as they get to declare success in negotiations. "We got everybody big raises and prevented a dozen layoffs" (just ignore that the place was shut down and everyone lost their jobs a year later because of that).
I'm on mobile now so I can't find the links I have saved but the National Right To Work Committee has cited higher standards of living, after tax income, purchasing power and some other significant benefits in RTW states.
You don't see an inherent bias in your source?
And....
http://www.epi.org/publication/unions-decline-inequality-rises/
I'm not saying unions are perfect, but they have their benefits. Something else to consider. LINK
It is not only the bargaining power but the benefits package as well.
And yes, the free hand of the market does not discriminate, between union and non union. You citing union members losing their jobs means little.
The article I was referencing was at least a year or two old so I would have to fact check it but yes, I'll agree that may have been a poor choice for an example
Anyhow, I've seen employees at the same company who do the exact same job but in different parts of the country where one group is unionized and the other isn't (this mainly occurs because of when and how the two sites were created). I think it causes a lot of problems because one group gets treated better (the union) bu ultimatelyt as a corporation you realize that you don't need to give these jobs to a group of unionized employees who are going to demand concessions such as guaranteed raise pools and pensions when there are qualified workers in other parts of the country that will complete the same task just as well without them. From a corporate standpoint, this also opens the ability to generate new tax incentives and it bolsters the certainty in your operations because you don't have to worry about a work stoppage every four to five years if you don't reach a deal.
The view on this probably changes depending on the industry or even company but at least in my case, I'm seeing a shift towards right-to-work states and rightfully (no pun intended) so.
RustyShackleford
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How is pointing out the reality on the manufacturing industry sneering at the problem?
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This. I don't think anyone was sneering at manufacturing jobs, they just noted that they were low-skilled jobs that are being replaced by automation and robots.
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The sneering I am referring to is the fact that a number of liberal journalists have more or less said that people who have only a high school diploma should never expect to have a middle class job. I reject that notion.
I agree that we cannot replicate the economy of the 1950's but I also dislike this idea that "the market" simply won't allow non college educated people to have a decent life. That is the classic, left-neoliberal trick. They tell poor people that they would like to use the power of the state to make people's lives better but the invisible hand would veto any and all efforts.
Americans, especially white American men, need to accept that the Man Men area is over but at the same time, retail and fast food jobs should not be considered naturally low wage and insecure. Other countries have figured out how to create good, post industrial jobs that are outside of the traditional, bourgeois, white collar model.
Edit: It's not just journalists saying it, lots of people around me have been saying this since Trump got elected. When conservative say that low paid workers should "get a better job," we liberals call them out for being out of touch and not considering the obstacles that people face in getting an education.
We should not embrace that same bootstraps, "get-a-better-job" attitude simply to back hand Trump supporters.
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your only worth what you produce...some of ya i swear never been in a commercial facility if ya lives dependent on it apparently.
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that's da default though...walked by a self Check out isle and kiosks in McDonald's today... artificially telling McDonald's you gotta pay 15-16 bucks minimum wage is gonna cause alot of collateral.
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RustyShackleford
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I agree we shouldn't dismiss the economic problems of these people but I believe the fact still remains that most people underestimate how much work and effort it will take to pull them out of economic despair. If we half *** it, even if we have their best interest at heart, market forces could still lead to these people being ******.
America, especially the white American man, doesn't only have to accept the 1950s is coming back, but also has to accept the federal governments assistance. To match them to jobs all over the country, to move, to get retrained, high prices for consumer goods, and for government regulations to protect their interest. They have to accept a job programs and furthermore, they have to accept people of color will be helped by it too.
Progressive should not embrace the heartless message of the right. However, at this point, I can see why liberals would want to vent at they actions of people in Appalachia. They still worship economic policy that keep them in despair, they still mix their white supremacy with their economic interest, and with Trump, they doubled down.
EddieDoyers
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You're discounting how valuable machines are to a manufacturer.
They are cheaper than human capital and can produce more at a more efficient rate.
That's who blue collar workers in the manufacturing industry are fighting against, and it has been a losing battle because CEOs see that using more machines equals a better bottom line.
Again, I'm not saying these workers don't deserve to get their jobs back, but the reality is that technology at a rapid pace is getting rid of their jobs, and I doubt it's going to get phased out anytime soon.
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With the major emphasis on workplace safety and healthcare benefits at these major manufacturing companies, it also beehoves you have to machines because then you won't have to worry about having humans do tasks at dangerous heights or tasks that require repetitive motion that could lead to injury...at least that's the initial spin when you deploy said machines
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how is that different from a manufacturing facility full of automation?
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You're right and that is the problem with Trump supporters. They want their town's economy improved but they don't care about anyone else. they want jobs programs in their County and stop and frisk in "the inner cities."
They want their own state backed economic security and they want to be able to lecture younger people, people of color and urban dwellers about the virtues of self reliance and the free market. Until they understand that the path to prosperity involves a multi ethnic coalition, they and workers of color will be held back.
I hope we can get enough Trump voters to change their mind but I fear that we may have to simply wait for enough of them to die off (although Paul Ryan's budget may accelerate that process).
MVP
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This should be good.
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I agree and I think we need to stop wasting our energy pointing out obvious flaws in the logic of Trump supporters and instead focus on solutions.
My position has been that we should embrace reality and encourage progress in two ways:
1) Create a social safety net that involves health care, education, and more, so that, even if you are a low-skill worker putting in an honest day, you can still enjoy the basic necessities of life and also put your children in a position to go to school and do well. This is more and more possible as this country becomes more productive and continues to lead the world in innovation and technology. Ultimately this is to everyone's benefit, including the economy and business owners.
2) Cultivate the work force of the future. People learned to be farmers during the agricultural revolution, then they learned to run machines during the industrial revolution. Now we need people ready for the new economy. I think Obama talked about it in his State of the Union addresses but Rex is right -- we need to make sure that everyone is included. You shouldn't need to leave home and go to Harvard and MIT to be able to keep up. So we need balance in the job opportunities. It really comes down to the fact that only a small percentage of the population, relatively speaking, can be professionals and executives. That means doctors, lawyers, engineers, CEOs, etc. The majority of the workforce still needs to be non-professionals.
That said, trying to bring back manufacturing serves no one but a politician pandering for votes. It's a waste of our energy to beat that dead horse. The people who matter aren't worried about that either. It's only relevant during an election.
edit: Agreed with Rusty on whites having to accept federal assistance for any of this to work. Which will require them to let go of many of their racist misconceptions.
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Nike Jordan
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