***Official Political Discussion Thread***

random post -- this thread is #4 in General for most posts with ~ 70k. Second and third place are ~ 75k with TAN way ahead at over 300k.

Once impeachment proceedings begin I can see this rising to #2.

Also, approval ratings have hit a new low:

2382528
 
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To dovetail on what Rusty said. I am in agreement that the ideal policy outcome is a supercharged public option with competing and regulated private insurance companies. The profit motive can indeed reduce costs and improve quality. The problem is that the way that the health insurance industry is currently structured, most of the so called profits are actually economic rent and we need to reconfigure the rules of health insurance markets in order to strip away the economic rents and leave behind legitimate profit seeking. Which brings me to today's mini economics lesson:

If you have a firm, operating in a fairly uncompetitive, market whose operating budget is 10,000 dollars and its revenues are 11,000 dollars, what do you all that 1,000 dollars? Conservatives would call all of it legitimate and fairly won profit and Marxists would cal of it surplus value which has been stolen from the public.

Suppose that this same firm had to operate in a competitive market (and we assume that it is complying with all applicable environmental, labor and safety laws) and its operating budget is still 10,000 dollars but it only made 10,500 dollars. It had 500 dollars in profit.

So this firm make 500 dollars in competitive market and it makes an additional 500 in an noncompetitive market. This means that 500 dollars of its 1,000 margin is legitimate profit and the other 500 dollars is illegitimate, it is economic rent or surplus value as Marxists would call it.

So in most sectors, the overall policy goal should be to make markets more competitive and to strip away the economic rents but to retain the profit motive and keep costs down. This the case with the health insurance markets, in my view.
 
random post -- this thread is #4 in General for most posts with ~ 70k. Second and third place are ~ 75k with TAN way ahead at over 300k.

Once impeachment proceedings begin I can see this rising to #2.

Also, approval ratings have hit a new low:
They expanded the bottom of the graph from 35% to 30% 
laugh.gif
 
 
To dovetail on what Rusty said. I am in agreement that the ideal policy outcome is a supercharged public option with competing and regulated private insurance companies. The profit motive can indeed reduce costs and improve quality. The problem is that the way that the health insurance industry is currently structured, most of the so called profits are actually economic rent and we need to reconfigure the rules of health insurance markets in order to strip away the economic rents and leave behind legitimate profit seeking. Which brings me to today's mini economics lesson:

If you have a firm, operating in a fairly uncompetitive, market whose operating budget is 10,000 dollars and its revenues are 11,000 dollars, what do you all that 1,000 dollars? Conservatives would call all of it legitimate and fairly won profit and Marxists would cal of it surplus value which has been stolen from the public.

Suppose that this same firm had to operate in a competitive market (and we assume that it is complying with all applicable environmental, labor and safety laws) and its operating budget is still 10,000 dollars but it only made 10,500 dollars. It had 500 dollars in profit.

So this firm make 500 dollars in competitive market and it makes an additional 500 in an noncompetitive market. This means that 500 dollars of its 1,000 margin is legitimate profit and the other 500 dollars is illegitimate, it is economic rent or surplus value as Marxists would call it.

So in most sectors, the overall policy goal should be to make markets more competitive and to strip away the economic rents but to retain the profit motive and keep costs down. This the case with the health insurance markets, in my view.
The question I have on this: In a well-regulated ideal marketplace, wouldn't most health insurance plans converge to a similar offering and price?

When we impose certain rules (coverage for preexisting conditions, etc.), then the way that insurers can differentiate themselves is on things such as deductibles, choice of doctor, and coverage of elective items. So they would all offer the same basic plan (let's say it costs $1050) as the public option, and each would yield $50 in profit. Then you could increase the price (and potentially earn more profits) by offering low-deductible plans, larger networks, coverage for more procedures, etc. To keep it a competitive marketplace, subsidies or other funds that the public option can take advantage of should be distributed equally to all insurers offering similar coverage.

Is my understanding of this correct? Was this the original idea behind the ACA?
 
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Rex is absolutely right, and that extends across many another industries and markets.

Way to much time, money, and great minds are wasted rent seeking. Whether it be buying off politicians at all level of government ,or battling lawsuits.

Liberals also I have a blind sport for companies they assume are on their side, namely the tech industry.

Putting his relationship with Trump aside. Elon Musk is a prefect example of this blind spot (I must admit I like Musk a lot, but for different reasons). While we applaud his electric cars, he is trying to make sure his workers don't unionize. Most of his views regarding public policy pretty much can be summed up as "what is best for my interest". I doubt he supports a carbon tax because he believes it will save the planet, he supports it because it gives him a competitive advantage.

Jeff Bezos might hate Trump, but he sues his employees so he can avoid paying them overtime and was trying to duck collecting sales tax for years.

Rich liberals should not be vilified imo, or be pushed out of the liberal tent, but some basic grounds rules have to be established. The left is pro-labor, and anti monopoly above all else. Period
 
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random post -- this thread is #4 in General for most posts with ~ 70k. Second and third place are ~ 75k with TAN way ahead at over 300k.

Once impeachment proceedings begin I can see this rising to #2.

Also, approval ratings have hit a new low:

2382528

It has only been 2 months and a couple days...
 
^ During campaign season, people are listening for that one issue that will hurt other people that they can latch on to. For some it's deporting illegals, for others it's getting rid of welfare, etc. Then, when the person is in office, you start paying attention to those things that actually effect you directly (like oh, he's going to get rid of my rent protections, or oh, he's going to cut the federal jobs that my family depend on, or oh, he's deporting my husband, or oh, we're actually on Obamacare).

People are all about change until they realize that change isn't always positive. Which is funny, because that's one of the basic philosophical tenets that I always associated with conservatives (they are typically against change), but we're in a new era now.
 
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People are all about change until they realize that change isn't always positive. Which is funny, because that's one of the basic philosophical tenets that I always associated with conservatives (they are typically against change), but we're in a new era now.

The only thing conservative about the American right is the name. They have gone very far from reason and are all about dogma, or as that guy told Hannity, putting "ideology before facts."
 
Da April Fools reset is coming...
Let's wait until

the primaries are over
the Republican National Convention
the first debate
his first day in office
he's had at least a few days to settle in
the first 100 days are over
he has a supermajority in both House and Senate
the impeachment proceedings are concluded
the war with N. Korea is over
the war with China is over
we get our electric grid back on track
we have running water again
temporary prison camps are cleared
the mass executions of traitors to the state are concluded
we find a new planet that is habitable
da 2020 BENJAMIN BARSON reset

before we judge him.
 
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Let's wait until the first 100 days are over before we judge him.

Whywesteppin and Nike Jordan are truly wise men. With all of the opposition Da Don has faced from Da Libbies we need to give him a chance. We have nothing to lose. Da Don is truly da best President we've ever had but Da Libbies won't help him get things done. Hopefully Spicey and Barson can let da yappa sing on fake news.
 
The question I have on this: In a well-regulated ideal marketplace, wouldn't most health insurance plans converge to a similar offering and price?

When we impose certain rules (coverage for preexisting conditions, etc.), then the way that insurers can differentiate themselves is on things such as deductibles, choice of doctor, and coverage of elective items. So they would all offer the same basic plan (let's say it costs $1050) as the public option, and each would yield $50 in profit. Then you could increase the price (and potentially earn more profits) by offering low-deductible plans, larger networks, coverage for more procedures, etc. To keep it a competitive marketplace, subsidies or other funds that the public option can take advantage of should be distributed equally to all insurers offering similar coverage.

Is my understanding of this correct? Was this the original idea behind the ACA?

That is mostly correct. A well regulated insurance market with mandatory coverage for preexisting conditions, and mandate to buy for for individuals and minimum coverage standards would mean that policies, premiums and profits would look the same across the board.

People like Paul Ryan betray their sophomoric understanding of economics by claiming that competition and consumer choice (which means the option to buy a a seriously striped down product) will drastically lower healthcare costs. He is wrong because unlike food, whiskey, cars or clothes or smart phone data plans, the acceptable range of quality for healthcare is narrow.

You get some fast food and you're no longer hungry, you drink cheap whiskey and you get drunk, you get a basic Honda and you get from point A to point B, you get a cheap suit and you're not naked, you get a basic data plan for your smart phone and you're making calls and texts. With low end health insurance, you effectively do not have healthcare. There is no viable down market for healthcare.


The one area where I would disagree with your assessment, is that premium supports where not meant to make the marketplace more competitive, they were meant to make high deductibles less of hardship for lower middle and middle income people.

Broadly speaking, the ACA was supposed to expand medicaid to coverage all poor and low income people and their dependent children. Everyone else would either get insurance through work (with young people under 26 but over 18, getting it through their parents' insurance, through their own job's plan or through medicaid if their parents were low income). People who made a reasonable amount above the poverty line and who did not get insurance through their jobs had to purchase insurance on the exchanges.

Now all of those plans had deductibles and the idea was that a 2,000 dollar deductible for a household making 120,000 a year was not a hardship, it was a deterrent against overusing your health insurance (and thus keeping down costs for everyone). Meanwhile, that same plan bought by a household just above the medicaid line would face a hardship by having to come up with 2,000, out of pocket, every year. So the idea was that taxes on very high income people would subsidize your monthly premiums and effectively reduce the 50,000 a year household's healthcare expenses to just 2,000 (they would pay 2,000 out of pocket to cover the deductibles in a given year but subsidizes would make it so that their monthly premiums were effectively zero.

In short, prime age adults (26 to 64) who did not get health insurance through work and who also made too much money to qualify for medicaid, would have to buy insurance through the Obamacare exchanges. Everyone, lower middle, middle and upper middle income people were supposed to pay the same expenses out of pocket for deductibles but your premiums were effectively priced on a sliding scale.

You take all of that, add in the fact that very wealthy 18 to 64 year olds people can take care of themselves (by having insurance throug hwork, buying Obamacare without subsidies or simply paying cash for healthcare) and that medicare covers all people 65 and older, regardless of wealth or income, everyone would have coverage one way or another.

The problem is that certain people, with ill intentions. Forced the subsidies for lower middle income buyers, on the exchanges, to be paltry. The public option was taken out so that insurance companies could make economic rents on top of legitimate profits and most stunning of all, Republican governors refuse the medicaid expansion. The effect was that millions of poor people go uncovered and untreated (because medicaid in their State only covers the extremely poor) and millions of lower middle income people are forced to buy artificially expensive insurance without the intended subsidies to help with the monthly premiums.


To sort of pivot from policy back to politics. What Bernie Sanders should do is to say the following:

"My President was Black, my Subaru is blue and my President implemented a brilliant plan to insure that everyone could have decent healthcare without serious financial hardship. Sadly, my Republican opponents have stripped away key provisions and as a result, many household face the dilemma of going without healthcare or incurring significant and unreasonable financial costs.

"My plan seeks to honor our previous President's wishes and then some with a restoration of premium support, a Federalization of the highly successful medicaid expansion and super public option which could be a medicare buy in option for everyone who lives in a County that has been undeserved by malice or incompetence on the part of State and local officials and/or malice on the part of their local private insurance companies."


You slam the idelogical Republicans, you give credit to the center left and you put your own socialist imprint on healthcare going forward. That's smart politics and public policy.
 
Let's wait until the first 100 days are over before we judge him.

Whywesteppin and Nike Jordan are truly wise men. With all of the opposition Da Don has faced from Da Libbies we need to give him a chance. We have nothing to lose. Da Don is truly da best President we've ever had but Da Libbies won't help him get things done. Hopefully Spicey and Barson can let da yappa sing on fake news.
Breaking News: you are correct. See, the fakenews people were holding the damn approval ratings upside down. When we turn it to the correct orientation, you see that his approval ratings have skyrocketed:

2382627


This error was pointed out by Dr. Benjamin Carson 2020, MD.
 
Brotha @RustyShackleford
, what are your thoughts on the Raiders moving to Las Vegas and the $750 million in tax dollars that Clark County residents will footing?

I have a weird opinion on this.

-First off, I hopefully won't be in the city when they start playing, hell hopefully before they start building the damb stadium. If I were, I would be upset that traffic is gonna get worst and Raiders Fans are gonna infest the town for 8 weekends out of the year. But that is lil stuff.

Regarding the bigger stuff....

-Like a good liberal I hate that tax payers have to foot he bill for rich mother ******* can have this trinket. (I'm low key happy they gave Sheldon Adelson the boot doe, FDB)

-On the other hand, a having a does bring some positives, well at least it could. Like nice weather, proximity to the beach, or public parks, a football team is an amenity. Amenities cause the property value in the area to increase, which results in more tax revenue. Now if you had competent policy makers they would use this extra revenue to better the city and help those on the lower rungs of the economic ladder.

But Las Vegas and Clark County politicians and infamous for not properly investing in the area. The infrastructure is ****, the schools are **** (legal weed is suppose to be the savior here but I can sense a finesse move coming in this area already, the school system is truly shameful :{ :x, the tax code is **** (tax the damb casinos more, they are not gonna move), the housing codes are ****, and the town has a serious drug problem.

So whatever economic benefits the team could bring will not come to fruition.

Thank god for unions and liberal Mexican Americans, because this place would be a hell hole without them.
 
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I appreciate the thorough reply. A basic concept that is not emphasized enough but that you make in your post is that the range of quality and coverage in health care is supposed to be low. The lowest level of acceptable insurance is still a pretty high bar. Add to that another basic concept, which is that, for any type of insurance, it is the poor who can't afford high deductibles, so this Republican idea of offering low-premium, high-deductible to the poor is quite possibly the stupidest idea I've ever heard.

I hope Bernie takes your advice and uses this opportunity to articulate how Obamacare has been manipulated to make it look bad and how it can be improved. Let those who sabotage it come out of the shadows for all to see.
 
When it comes to labor policy, Western Nevada makes California look like Texas.

Las Vegas and other Western Nevada towns show that with unions, people can have good jobs, even when most of those jobs are "menial" jobs that are in hospitality and are not linked with technology and STEM degrees or traditional mining and manufacturing. Left Coast libertarians and Trump Trumpeters, take not. Unions make a middle class, not the ascendance of your favorite, pet industry.
 
If we taking public option, I need to reassert that if I ever run into Joe Libermann I am swing on that mother ****** on sight.

No words, no warning, Imma run that clown a fade for the way he sabotaged the ACA and Obama.

I am 100% dead serious about this.

The 2006 Senate race is another example that sometimes it is better to vote along party lines once a primary has been fought.

If we get **** Boy Joe out the paint in 2006, then maybe Obama does have the leverage to squeeze the other Dems on the margin. Once Libermann dugg in, the other clowns had cover.
 
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Breaking News: you are correct. See, the fakenews people were holding the damn approval ratings upside down. When we turn it to the correct orientation, you see that his approval ratings have skyrocketed:

2382627


This error was pointed out by Dr. Benjamin Carson 2020, MD.

Leave it up to our HUD secretary to fight injustice. I've seen those crowds down in Florida. No way Da Don's approval rating is less than 80%. Only Barson would have a higher approval rating.
 
When it comes to labor policy, Western Nevada makes California look like Texas.

Las Vegas and other Western Nevada towns show that with unions, people can have good jobs, even when most of those jobs are "menial" jobs that are in hospitality and are not linked with technology and STEM degrees or traditional mining and manufacturing. Left Coast libertarians and Trump Trumpeters, take not. Unions make a middle class, not the ascendance of your favorite, pet industry.

Yep.

I know so many people in the area that have great houses, nice cars, are debt free, and are raising families. The husband is like a valet, and the wife is a maid or a dealer; few have college degrees.

Sheldon Adelson is a selfish piece of ****, but a strong union threat got him giving his employees cheap deductible free health insurance that everyone in the valley takes.
 
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Never really met anyone here who is really against trade unions. Besides CEOs
They're criticized individually for the way they handle protests sometimes but I've yet to meet anyone who just dislikes the principle of trade unions. We have one of the highest unionization rates in Europe
 
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Never really met anyone here who is really against trade unions. Besides employers.

Many Republicans have an irrational hatred for them. Not only in practice but in theory as well. I happily call these people full of **** to their face. If you claim to be a free market loving capitalist, you should have no problem with organized labor or collective bargaining.

The sad part is that there are many Republicans in trade union, like being in a union, but will happily vote for Republican candidates in the hopes everyone else will feel their wrath besides them.

One thing I will concede I was wrong on, Jim Webb and Tim Kaine should have both been disqualified as being suitable for Democratic leadership. Webb for being funny styles about race, and Kaine for being funny style about union. In those cases, purity test are needed.
 
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