***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[gry60]

the type of lockdowns, and governmental surveillance and societal vigilance
necessary to totally ameliorate the risk of future variants

is not possible in western liberal democracies.

These western liberal democracies?

Coronavirus: all you need to know about Covid-19 in Paris - Paris tourist office

Coronavirus: update on the situation in Paris

en.parisinfo.com

Netherlands tightens Covid health measures to stem record surge in cases

The Dutch government on Friday ordered further restrictions including a nighttime closure of bars, restaurants and most stores to stem a record-breaking wave of COVID-19 cases that is threatening to…

www.france24.com

what you're saying here is way more unreasonable than what teachers are arguing for.

Is it unreasonable to require frequent testing? No.

Is it unreasonable to impose vaccine mandates? No. Ask parents about the vaccines their children are already required to take to attend public school.

No we will not be able to guarantee that future variants will not be resistant to the vaccine.

Great!

So you are asking people to go back to mingling in confined spaces without expecting their elected officials to implement measures to reduce the risk of transmission, when we all know that the more transmissions there are, the greater the possibility of mutation (mutations we can't predict the effects of).

How is your approach any different from the one suggested by the "it's just the flu" crowd?

 

[RustyShackleford]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

What is the cost of a two-week school closure? More specifically, two-week virtual learning

You keep saying people are ignoring the cost, but you never specify it

Or are we just working under the assumption that a two week period will have the same impact as the previous months-long one?

obviously two weeks of a bad thing is not as bad as months of a bad thing,
the leonhardt thread recounts the scale of the harm.

for me subjecting kids to two more weeks of that looms larger than
than 91% vaccinated workforce being protected from any risk.

i don't find the risks the union has outlined to be significant enough to subject kids to 2 days of it, let alone 2 weeks.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This is demonstrably false. A simple google search would reveal what we know about vaccines and specifically mRNA vaccines.

yes mRNA technology, im talking about these specific vaccines

we do not have 10-20 years of data on it, this is plainly true.

Can you explain what you would expect to see 10-20 years after vaccination?

I don't know, I don't care. it's worth the risk to prevent catching an omnipresent incurable,respiratory disease.

 

[RustyShackleford]

obviously two weeks of a bad thing is not as bad as months of a bad thing,
the leonhardt thread recounts the scale of the harm.

for me subjecting kids to two more weeks of that looms larger than
than 91% vaccinated workforce being protected from any risk.

i don't find the risks the union has outlined to be significant enough to subject kids to 2 days of it, let alone 2 weeks.

Yeah, that is the thing. Yet you keep acting like the two are the same and will produce the same results.

Leonhardt's article pretty much tells us nothing about what two-week virtual learning will cause. It seems to be discussing the previous longer virtual learning period

We don't know what a two-week break right now will do to kids. How long kids are away from classrooms seems like it would matter.

If you think the burden of proof is on the teachers to prove their actions were warranted given Omicron is different than previous variants, then if you want to go down this road then where is your proof that a two-week break is gonna produce the same negative results and ones that lasted months

By your logic. Kids should not have a winter break, a spring break, weekend breaks, and be kept in school all summer then

This seems like a very flawed argument based on a big assumption

 

[IATT]

 

[boris]

yes mRNA technology, im talking about these specific vaccines

we do not have 10-20 years of data on it, this is plainly true.


I don't know, I don't care. it's worth the risk to prevent catching an omnipresent incurable,respiratory disease.

In other words you along with the anti-vaxxers don’t seem to understand how science works.

The FDA never collects 10-20 years of data on a product before it’s released to market.

The same people who cry about how we don’t know the long term effects of the vaccine are taking dewormers. To pretend like these people are in any way the same as people who are concerned about the long term effects of Covid is ridiculous.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Also, talking about Omicron on a personal level seems like a rather right-wing framing

Yes Omicron seems to produce less severe sickness, especially in the face of vaccination

But it seems much of the benefit of vaccines with Omicron comes after a booster shot. And I highly doubt 91% of CPU teachers are boosted

Omicron is way more contagious, so if you don't try to mitigate its spread, it will rip through populations faster so you will get similar hospitalizations to previous spikes. That is kinda how math works. That seems kinda bad for trying to keep things up and running to ignore this

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

These western liberal democracies?

Coronavirus: all you need to know about Covid-19 in Paris - Paris tourist office

Coronavirus: update on the situation in Paris

en.parisinfo.com

Netherlands tightens Covid health measures to stem record surge in cases

The Dutch government on Friday ordered further restrictions including a nighttime closure of bars, restaurants and most stores to stem a record-breaking wave of COVID-19 cases that is threatening to…

www.france24.com

I said the type of measures necessary to guarantee no risk of future variants.

frances measures have not stopped the omicron wave

neither has the netherlands

If you want to really crush the risk of mutations you need, singapore, china like
real lockdowns, curfews, strong enforcement of gathering limits
hyper vigilant contact tracing, strong surveillance, forced quarantine periods for all travelers. ect ect

whatever merits these policies have, they aren't going to happen.

Is it unreasonable to require frequent testing? No.

Is it unreasonable to impose vaccine mandates? No. Ask parents about the vaccines their children are already required to take to attend public school.

opt testing is the policy in NYC and their schools are open.
it does not seem to me that opt out testing is a prerequisite for opening school.

So you are asking people to go back to mingling in confined spaces without expecting their elected officials to implement measures to reduce the risk of transmission, when we all know that the more transmissions there are, the greater the possibility of mutation (mutations we can't predict the effects of).

How is your approach any different from the one suggested by the "it's just the flu" crowd?

id love vaccine mandates,
but that's not teachers call, that's for elected officials to decide.

if vaccine mandates are so important you would think the teachers would mandate it for their members.

because reducing the risk of variants to zero is not possible.
and it's not the job of teachers unions to prevent variants, that's the job of elected officials.

it's simple nuance, it's not the flu BUT
if you are double vaxxed and boosted. the risk of a severe reaction to covid is small.
most teachers are vaxxed, boosters are available.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I didn't find David Leonhardt's article that compelling in the context Osh was trying to use it, I think this was needlessly thrown in there...

Gun violence against children has increased, as part of a broader nationwide rise in crime. In Chicago, for example, 101 residents under age 20 were murdered last year, up from 76 in 2019. School shootings have also risen: The Washington Post counted 42 last year in the U.S., the most on record and up from 27 in 2019.

Like there is no way to tie that to virtual learning, he doesn't even try, he just puts it out there.

But this is a much fairer framing of the trade-offs than osh kosh bosh is doing...

The widespread availability of vaccines since last spring also raises an ethical question: Should children suffer to protect unvaccinated adults — who are voluntarily accepting Covid risk for themselves and increasing everybody else’s risk, too? Right now, the United States is effectively saying yes.

To be clear, there are some hard decisions and unavoidable trade-offs. Covid can lead to hospitalization or worse for a small percentage of vaccinated adults, especially those who are elderly or immunocompromised, and allowing children to resume normal life could create additional risk. The Omicron surge may well heighten that risk, leaving schools with no attractive options.

For the past two years, however, many communities in the U.S. have not really grappled with the trade-off. They have tried to minimize the spread of Covid — a worthy goal absent other factors — rather than minimizing the damage that Covid does to society. They have accepted more harm to children in exchange for less harm to adults, often without acknowledging the dilemma or assessing which decisions lead to less overall harm.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yeah, that is the thing. Yet you keep acting like the two are the same and will produce the same results.

Leonhardt's article pretty much tells us nothing about what two-week virtual learning will cause. It seems to be discussing the previous longer virtual learning period

We don't know what a two-week break right now will do to kids. How long kids are away from classrooms seems like it would matter.

If you think the burden of proof is on the teachers to prove their actions were warranted given Omicron is different than previous variants, then if you want to go down this road then where is your proof that a two-week break is gonna produce the same negative results and ones that lasted months

By your logic. Kids should not have a winter break, a spring break, weekend breaks, and be kept in school all summer then

This seems like a very flawed argument based on a big assumption

imo a break in the context of normally scheduled schooling
is not the same as a break in the context of already years of intermittent disruptions.

they don't need to produce the same results.
we know that it's bad, and why should we continue a harmful policy in the face of what imo are uncompelling demands from CTU.
now minds can differ, you may find them compelling, I do not.

plus the teachers union doesn't have any proof two weeks from now will be significantly different than now.
so how do I know they won't just vote for another extension of virtual learning.

the fundamentals will be the same, we will have a basically unavoidable more transmissible more mild variant.
young people are of low risk, teachers are highly vaxxed, and boosters are available.
the schools said they would provide KN95's, so a strike to me seems unreasonable

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I didn't find David Leonhardt's article that compelling in the context Osh was trying to use it, I think this was needlessly thrown in there...


Like there is no way to tie that to virtual learning, he doesn't even try, he just puts it out there.

But this is a much fairer framing of the trade-offs than osh kosh bosh is doing...

like I said minds can differ on this,
people can measure these things differently.

for me, If I was parent I would not find CTU position to be compelling.


they closed schools where I am,
my niece and nephew are doing virtual,

they were in nigeria for freshman year,
they made almost no friends in their new school, they lost basically lost 2nd and 3rd of Canadian high school.
if they are lucky they'll get a somewhat normal senior year

tbh they seem woefully unprepared for university and
I just know this whole thing has seriously impacted them academically and emotionally.


but in ontario schools are closed for two weeks
while shopping malls are open. I just am not convinced it makes sense.

thats just my take on it. *shrugs

 

[RustyShackleford]

imo a break in the context of normally scheduled schooling
is not the same as a break in the context of already years of intermittent disruptions.

they don't need to produce the same results.
we know that it's bad, and why should we continue a harmful policy in the face of what imo are uncompelling demands from CTU.
now minds can differ, you may find them compelling, I do not.

plus the teachers union doesn't have any proof two weeks from now will be significantly different than now.
so how do I know they won't just vote for another extension of virtual learning.

the fundamentals will be the same, we will have a basically unavoidable more transmissible more mild variant.
young people are of low risk, teachers are highly vaxxed, and boosters are available.
the schools said they would provide KN95's, so a strike to me seems unreasonable

-So you are against show days, teacher-only admin days then?

Sorry but I am having a hard time respecting such an argument. It has some backed in hypocrisy

-So 2 weeks is bad even though you have no proof it is the same as months. And pretty much admit they won't be the same results. But the same standards should be used. Avoid it at all cost

-But on you categorize Omicron as less dangerous, conditions are different, but a different standard should be used.

-The teacher are not basing them staying home just on cases.

 

[IATT]

 

[RustyShackleford]

You know in the summertime when I the idea floating around that they should have brought kids back two weeks earlier and kept them two weeks later in the summer, then have an extended winter break

I think in hindsight that would have been a smarter way to do things

 

[IATT]

 

[dreamer23]

**** Ted Cruz....

 

[RustyShackleford]

Apprently, this **** show was one of the things that brought this to a head...

That's parents trying to return their testing kits during the holidays

150,000 sent out

40,000 returned

20,000 of those returned could not be validated

Do the math, they have results for 13% of the test sent out during the holidays for return to school

CPS testing has been kinda a **** show. With omicron being more transmittable, you need more testing, not less. Isolate cases quicker before they get a chance to rip through a school

 

[osh kosh bosh]

-So you are against show days, teacher-only admin days then?

imo a break in the context of normally scheduled schooling
is not the same as a break in the context of already years of intermittent disruptions.

-So 2 weeks is bad even though you have no proof it is the same as months. And pretty much admit they won't be the same results. But the same standards should be used. Avoid it at all cost

it doesn't need to be the same as months.
we know it's harmful, call me crazy I think you need a really good reason to continue a harmful policy.

 

[RustyShackleford]

imo a break in the context of normally scheduled schooling
is not the same as a break in the context of already years of intermittent disruptions.



it doesn't need to be the same as months.
we know it's harmful, call me crazy I think you need a really good reason to continue a harmful policy.

We don't though, at least not a two-week break

Your argument is based on one big assumption you keep repeating like it is an established fact

 

[osh kosh bosh]

We don't though

Your argument is based on one big assumption you keep repeating like it is an established fact

okay so let's close em for a month, or two or how about a year really let covid die down?
since it's not harmful.


the Leonhart thread documents the psychological impacts or intermittent in person schooling
the rise in behavior problems, depression, learning loss, big declines in reading and math performance on standardized tests.
not to mention the obvious cost of depriving parents of child care function school provides

I think it obviously follows that continuing that policy will continue produce those outcomes.
obviously months is worse than weeks but the bar should be high before you enact a harmful policy.

 

[RustyShackleford]

okay so let's close em for a month, or two or how about a year really let covid die down?
since it's not harmful.


the Leonhart thread documents the psychological impacts or intermittent in person schooling
the rise in behavior problems, depression, learning loss, big declines in reading and math performance on standardized tests.
not to mention the obvious cost of depriving parents of child care function school provides

I think it obviously follows that continuing that policy will continue produce those outcomes.
obviously months is worse than weeks but the bar should be high before you enact a harmful policy.

This is a bad faith bull**** response to what I said.

I'm telling you that we don't know if a two-week break with have the same effect at longer months-long break

You have not proven it is, you just want everyone to accept that assumption

Don't whine about people not responding to what you actually said if you want to do **** like this

I see no point to continue this discussion

Let us just leave it here

 

[gry60]

This is a bad faith bull**** response to what I said

Always ends up like this...

 

[RustyShackleford]

Always ends up like this...

I know the response will be that it was fair for him to draw that conclusion from my words

However, if the shoe was on the other foot I am sure he would have some objections