Osama Bin Laden is dead

[mrdoeboi]

Originally Posted by rashi

Little to no evidence exists that the US ever armed foreign fighters

[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]

What? Iran Contra?


[/color]
Exactly Rashi they helped arm these guys and flood the streets with coke and Killed Pablo Escobar in this War on drugs that we are still fighting and even back then they managed to get a pic of his body with soldiers over it

 

[mrdoeboi]

Originally Posted by rashi

Little to no evidence exists that the US ever armed foreign fighters

[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]

What? Iran Contra?


[/color]
Exactly Rashi they helped arm these guys and flood the streets with coke and Killed Pablo Escobar in this War on drugs that we are still fighting and even back then they managed to get a pic of his body with soldiers over it

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by tkthafm

From the research I have done, Osama bin Laden infact was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war under the CIA to fight the Soviets. But, it was done directly through the help of the ISI but indirectly through the CIA.


It was not only local Afghans who were the mujahideens.  CIA and Pakistan's ISI wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad. (Read Ahmed Rashid, "The Taliban: Exporting Extremism", Foreign Affairs November-December 1999)

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade.In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166, which authorized the stepped-up covert military aid to the Mujahideen. The CIA, using Pakistan's ISI played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam (basically teaching that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, and that holy Islam was being violated by the threat of Communism and the Soviets, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.)

The ISI was used as a go between, so these guerillas and mujahideen were indirectly suppored by the CIA through the ISI.

Wow.  Serious accusations.  Very interesting.  I mean, aren't there obvious risks with that kind of strategy?  What do you say to the alternate explanation: that foreign mujahideen went willingly OR were motivated by local radical clerics to go?  Many of the countries had a lot of high unemployment rates among men.  Especially so in the cases of Algeria and Egypt.  I've been told that in a lot of cases, at the time men had nothing better to do.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by tkthafm

From the research I have done, Osama bin Laden infact was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war under the CIA to fight the Soviets. But, it was done directly through the help of the ISI but indirectly through the CIA.


It was not only local Afghans who were the mujahideens.  CIA and Pakistan's ISI wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad. (Read Ahmed Rashid, "The Taliban: Exporting Extremism", Foreign Affairs November-December 1999)

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade.In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166, which authorized the stepped-up covert military aid to the Mujahideen. The CIA, using Pakistan's ISI played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam (basically teaching that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, and that holy Islam was being violated by the threat of Communism and the Soviets, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.)

The ISI was used as a go between, so these guerillas and mujahideen were indirectly suppored by the CIA through the ISI.

Wow.  Serious accusations.  Very interesting.  I mean, aren't there obvious risks with that kind of strategy?  What do you say to the alternate explanation: that foreign mujahideen went willingly OR were motivated by local radical clerics to go?  Many of the countries had a lot of high unemployment rates among men.  Especially so in the cases of Algeria and Egypt.  I've been told that in a lot of cases, at the time men had nothing better to do.

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by rashi

Little to no evidence exists that the US ever armed foreign fighters

[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]

What? Iran Contra?


[/color]
Ever hear of context ? 

Hazeleyed Honey wrote:

---

tkthafm wrote:

---

To the Afghan mujahideen.

Let's not get confused here.

This is far different from claiming they founded "al-Qaeda". This is completely wrong. Little to no evidence exists that the US ever armed foreign fighters or worked with Bin Laden. The mujahideen in Afghanistan are not and were not the same thing as Al-Qaeda. The CIA certainly did arm the Afghan Mujahideen and some of these elements became the Taliban.Al-Qaeda has been mostly funded by rich donors, including bin Laden himself. There is no credible evidence that the CIA trained or gave money to foreign mujahideen (i.e. non-Afghans). Ayman al-Zawahiri confirmed this in a book, and bin Laden claimed a similar story. There's been speculation to the contrary, but no credible evidence has surfaced and people in the know have said it didn't happen. Bin Laden had no need for Western money and certainly, even at that time, wouldn't have agreed to partner with the US. There are few things al-Qaeda & US agree on, and this is one of them. The ISI/al-Qaeda connection/sympathy is true, but they did not "create" al-Qaeda; and neither did the Saudi's (really, the SAUDI'S ? lol). Remember that al-Qaeda ideology and the mentality of its foreign fighters split off from many of the Afghans/ or less "radical" elements (Abdullah Yusuf Azzam most notably) and it was only at this time did al-Qaeda even begin to truly take shape.Why any of these nations would supposedly arm/train/found a group hell bent on their destruction I can't imagine. I'd love to see credible evidence showing otherwise, be it material aid or implanting the ideology (which one can argue IS what 'al-Qaeda' actually is) that any of these nations "founded" al-Qaeda.

From the research I have done, Osama bin Laden infact was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war under the CIA to fight the Soviets. But, it was done directly through the help of the ISI but indirectly through the CIA. 


It was not only local Afghans who were the mujahideens.  CIA and Pakistan's ISI wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad. (Read Ahmed Rashid, "The Taliban: Exporting Extremism", Foreign Affairs November-December 1999)

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade.In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166, which authorized the stepped-up covert military aid to the Mujahideen. The CIA, using Pakistan's ISI played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam (basically teaching that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, and that holy Islam was being violated by the threat of Communism and the Soviets, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.)

The ISI was used as a go between, so these guerillas and mujahideen were indirectly suppored by the CIA through the ISI.

See, I agree with what I crossed out, and would like evidence for what I bolded.
As for the last part of your post, "Mujahideen" is used as a blanket label. I'm distinguishing between Bin Laden and the hardcore foreigners who would later make up al-Qaeda (Afghan Arabs) and the indigenous Afghans.  No one is denying that the CIA used Pakistan as a proxy to arm/train Afghani Mujahideen. My issue is with the claim that the US knowingly funded/armed the Afghan Arabs or "founded" al-Qaeda. Is it possible that the ISI recruited foreigners/gave them arms ? Sure, the connection between the ISI and al-Qaeda is known (but they didn't "found" al-Qaeda either). 

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by rashi

Little to no evidence exists that the US ever armed foreign fighters

[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]

What? Iran Contra?


[/color]
Ever hear of context ? 

Hazeleyed Honey wrote:

---

tkthafm wrote:

---

To the Afghan mujahideen.

Let's not get confused here.

This is far different from claiming they founded "al-Qaeda". This is completely wrong. Little to no evidence exists that the US ever armed foreign fighters or worked with Bin Laden. The mujahideen in Afghanistan are not and were not the same thing as Al-Qaeda. The CIA certainly did arm the Afghan Mujahideen and some of these elements became the Taliban.Al-Qaeda has been mostly funded by rich donors, including bin Laden himself. There is no credible evidence that the CIA trained or gave money to foreign mujahideen (i.e. non-Afghans). Ayman al-Zawahiri confirmed this in a book, and bin Laden claimed a similar story. There's been speculation to the contrary, but no credible evidence has surfaced and people in the know have said it didn't happen. Bin Laden had no need for Western money and certainly, even at that time, wouldn't have agreed to partner with the US. There are few things al-Qaeda & US agree on, and this is one of them. The ISI/al-Qaeda connection/sympathy is true, but they did not "create" al-Qaeda; and neither did the Saudi's (really, the SAUDI'S ? lol). Remember that al-Qaeda ideology and the mentality of its foreign fighters split off from many of the Afghans/ or less "radical" elements (Abdullah Yusuf Azzam most notably) and it was only at this time did al-Qaeda even begin to truly take shape.Why any of these nations would supposedly arm/train/found a group hell bent on their destruction I can't imagine. I'd love to see credible evidence showing otherwise, be it material aid or implanting the ideology (which one can argue IS what 'al-Qaeda' actually is) that any of these nations "founded" al-Qaeda.

From the research I have done, Osama bin Laden infact was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war under the CIA to fight the Soviets. But, it was done directly through the help of the ISI but indirectly through the CIA. 


It was not only local Afghans who were the mujahideens.  CIA and Pakistan's ISI wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad. (Read Ahmed Rashid, "The Taliban: Exporting Extremism", Foreign Affairs November-December 1999)

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade.In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166, which authorized the stepped-up covert military aid to the Mujahideen. The CIA, using Pakistan's ISI played a key role in training the Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with the teachings of Islam (basically teaching that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, and that holy Islam was being violated by the threat of Communism and the Soviets, and that the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.)

The ISI was used as a go between, so these guerillas and mujahideen were indirectly suppored by the CIA through the ISI.

See, I agree with what I crossed out, and would like evidence for what I bolded.
As for the last part of your post, "Mujahideen" is used as a blanket label. I'm distinguishing between Bin Laden and the hardcore foreigners who would later make up al-Qaeda (Afghan Arabs) and the indigenous Afghans.  No one is denying that the CIA used Pakistan as a proxy to arm/train Afghani Mujahideen. My issue is with the claim that the US knowingly funded/armed the Afghan Arabs or "founded" al-Qaeda. Is it possible that the ISI recruited foreigners/gave them arms ? Sure, the connection between the ISI and al-Qaeda is known (but they didn't "found" al-Qaeda either). 

 

[jd214]

Originally Posted by ThorrocksJs

Originally Posted by cguy610

Originally Posted by JD214







What Blaze just said = Mindblown

. I always thought of this

And people having a parade for someone's death

, No matter who it was I still couldn't celebrate it, I'm sure they celebrated when they hit us so we're just looking as bad as them doing it.

You're an idiot. People over there celebrated the killing of innocent civilians. When has our country ever celebrated killing innocent civilians.

Columbus Day and Thanksgiving.

Thanks fam, didn't read the post til now. But we came to the US running Native Americans out of their county we tortured and killed tons of them and you still say "When has our country ever celebrated killing innocent civilians" US celebrates human deaths every year.

I don't celebrate Thanksgiving BTW

 

[jd214]

Originally Posted by ThorrocksJs

Originally Posted by cguy610

Originally Posted by JD214







What Blaze just said = Mindblown

. I always thought of this

And people having a parade for someone's death

, No matter who it was I still couldn't celebrate it, I'm sure they celebrated when they hit us so we're just looking as bad as them doing it.

You're an idiot. People over there celebrated the killing of innocent civilians. When has our country ever celebrated killing innocent civilians.

Columbus Day and Thanksgiving.

Thanks fam, didn't read the post til now. But we came to the US running Native Americans out of their county we tortured and killed tons of them and you still say "When has our country ever celebrated killing innocent civilians" US celebrates human deaths every year.

I don't celebrate Thanksgiving BTW

 

[mjrm2384]

I stumbled on a solid Tee that Grumpybearclothing.com is making a limited run of. Got my preorder in! 

 

[mjrm2384]

I stumbled on a solid Tee that Grumpybearclothing.com is making a limited run of. Got my preorder in! 

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Wow.  Serious accusations.  Very interesting.  I mean, aren't there obvious risks with that kind of strategy?  What do you say to the alternate explanation: that foreign mujahideen went willingly OR were motivated by local radical clerics to go?  Many of the countries had a lot of high unemployment rates among men.  Especially so in the cases of Algeria and Egypt.  I've been told that in a lot of cases, at the time men had nothing better to do.

This is not serious accusations. This is all laid out in official U.S. documents. It is no secret. From 1979 through 1989 under U.S. Presidents Carter and Reagan, the U.S. provided overt and covert financial aid, arms and training to Osama's Islamic Jihad mujahideen  through Operaration Cyclone, and the Reagan Doctrine. President Reagan often praised the Mujahideen as Afghanistan's "Freedom Fighters."

This was U.S. policy throughout many parts of the world. In Central and South America, they were recruiting men from those countries and placing in their heads messed up right leaning ideologies in schools in Chicago and the School of the Americas in Georgia and then sending them back to their countries as militias and death squads to help bring down Marxist and left leaning governments during the late 60s, 70s and 80s.  What they did for the Soviet-Afghan war was no different.

  

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Wow.  Serious accusations.  Very interesting.  I mean, aren't there obvious risks with that kind of strategy?  What do you say to the alternate explanation: that foreign mujahideen went willingly OR were motivated by local radical clerics to go?  Many of the countries had a lot of high unemployment rates among men.  Especially so in the cases of Algeria and Egypt.  I've been told that in a lot of cases, at the time men had nothing better to do.

This is not serious accusations. This is all laid out in official U.S. documents. It is no secret. From 1979 through 1989 under U.S. Presidents Carter and Reagan, the U.S. provided overt and covert financial aid, arms and training to Osama's Islamic Jihad mujahideen  through Operaration Cyclone, and the Reagan Doctrine. President Reagan often praised the Mujahideen as Afghanistan's "Freedom Fighters."

This was U.S. policy throughout many parts of the world. In Central and South America, they were recruiting men from those countries and placing in their heads messed up right leaning ideologies in schools in Chicago and the School of the Americas in Georgia and then sending them back to their countries as militias and death squads to help bring down Marxist and left leaning governments during the late 60s, 70s and 80s.  What they did for the Soviet-Afghan war was no different.

  

 

[kix4kix]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by kix4kix

Originally Posted by wawaweewa


He wasn't the founder of Al-Qaeda though. All evidence points to him being a financier during the Soviet-Afghan war but not a significant figure in the Mujahideen
effort against the Soviets. Sometime after the Persian Gulf war he became incensed and started organizing against the US. To call him the founder of Al-Qaeda is a misnomer though. The original founders of Al-Qaeda were the Saudis/Pakistan/ and US. 
Al-Qaeda and Hamas are different. I didn't meant to equate them specifically. Israel has been going after various heads for decades now. One pops up right after another. 

Take your strawman elsewhere.

No, he's absolutely right.  Killing Osama does little against the opposition.  Even all that data recovered does little against the opposition.

Que? 

 

[kix4kix]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by kix4kix

Originally Posted by wawaweewa


He wasn't the founder of Al-Qaeda though. All evidence points to him being a financier during the Soviet-Afghan war but not a significant figure in the Mujahideen
effort against the Soviets. Sometime after the Persian Gulf war he became incensed and started organizing against the US. To call him the founder of Al-Qaeda is a misnomer though. The original founders of Al-Qaeda were the Saudis/Pakistan/ and US. 
Al-Qaeda and Hamas are different. I didn't meant to equate them specifically. Israel has been going after various heads for decades now. One pops up right after another. 

Take your strawman elsewhere.

No, he's absolutely right.  Killing Osama does little against the opposition.  Even all that data recovered does little against the opposition.

Que? 

 

[onhollowedground821]

Originally Posted by MJRM2384

I stumbled on a solid Tee that Grumpybearclothing.com is making a limited run of. Got my preorder in! 

Can I get a Link?

 

[onhollowedground821]

Originally Posted by MJRM2384

I stumbled on a solid Tee that Grumpybearclothing.com is making a limited run of. Got my preorder in! 

Can I get a Link?

 

[mo matik]

The traditional explanation of the extent of US involvement is the armament of Afghans (and whatever foreigners at the time) against the Soviets. An effort to establish a globalized Islamic front has a bit more shock value.

 

[mo matik]

The traditional explanation of the extent of US involvement is the armament of Afghans (and whatever foreigners at the time) against the Soviets. An effort to establish a globalized Islamic front has a bit more shock value.

 

[breezylocks]

real life...


NO PICS, NO PROOF....

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

See, I agree with what I crossed out, and would like evidence for what I bolded.

I laid out evidence for you of how the CIA indirectly through the ISI providing cover and overt funding to fund the mujahideens.

Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166 in 1985. Read the 1992 article written by Steve Coll in the Washington Post, "Anatomy of a Victory: CIA's Covert Afghan War". I found a link to where you can read the article: http://www.globalissues.org/article/258/anatomy-of-a-victory-cias-covert-afghan-war 

Here is another article, "How The CIA Created Bin Laden": http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24198

A few excerpts from the article linked above:

...

Osama's military and business adventures in Afghanistan had the blessing of the bin Laden dynasty and the reactionary Saudi Arabian regime. His close working relationship with MAK also meant that the CIA was fully aware of his activities.

Milt Bearden, the CIA's station chief in Pakistan from 1986 to 1989, admitted to the January 24, 2000, New Yorker that while he never personally met bin Laden, "Did I know that he was out there? Yes, I did ... [Guys like] bin Laden were bringing $20-$25 million a month from other Saudis and Gulf Arabs to underwrite the war. And that is a lot of money. It's an extra $200-$300 million a year. And this is what bin Laden did."

In 1986, bin Laden brought heavy construction equipment from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan. Using his extensive knowledge of construction techniques (he has a degree in civil engineering), he built "training camps", some dug deep into the sides of mountains, and built roads to reach them.
...Al Qaeda (the Base), bin Laden's organisation, was established in 1987-88 to run the camps and other business enterprises. It is a tightly-run capitalist holding company — albeit one that integrates the operations of a mercenary force and related logistical services with "legitimate" business operations.

Bin Laden has simply continued to do the job he was asked to do in Afghanistan during the 1980s — fund, feed and train mercenaries. All that has changed is his primary customer. Then it was the ISI and, behind the scenes, the CIA. Today, his services are utilised primarily by the reactionary Taliban regime.

Bin Laden only became a "terrorist" in US eyes when he fell out with the Saudi royal family over its decision to allow more than 540,000 US troops to be stationed on Saudi soil following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.
...



You can read up on Operation Cyclone. "Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm, train, and finance the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, 1979 to 1989." That is the brief definition from Wikipedia, but you can read an article on it here: http://dangeroustravel.blogspot.com/2008/01/defeated-by-his-success.html or you can just google Operation Cyclone.     

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

See, I agree with what I crossed out, and would like evidence for what I bolded.

I laid out evidence for you of how the CIA indirectly through the ISI providing cover and overt funding to fund the mujahideens.

Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 166 in 1985. Read the 1992 article written by Steve Coll in the Washington Post, "Anatomy of a Victory: CIA's Covert Afghan War". I found a link to where you can read the article: http://www.globalissues.org/article/258/anatomy-of-a-victory-cias-covert-afghan-war 

Here is another article, "How The CIA Created Bin Laden": http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24198

A few excerpts from the article linked above:

...

Osama's military and business adventures in Afghanistan had the blessing of the bin Laden dynasty and the reactionary Saudi Arabian regime. His close working relationship with MAK also meant that the CIA was fully aware of his activities.

Milt Bearden, the CIA's station chief in Pakistan from 1986 to 1989, admitted to the January 24, 2000, New Yorker that while he never personally met bin Laden, "Did I know that he was out there? Yes, I did ... [Guys like] bin Laden were bringing $20-$25 million a month from other Saudis and Gulf Arabs to underwrite the war. And that is a lot of money. It's an extra $200-$300 million a year. And this is what bin Laden did."

In 1986, bin Laden brought heavy construction equipment from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan. Using his extensive knowledge of construction techniques (he has a degree in civil engineering), he built "training camps", some dug deep into the sides of mountains, and built roads to reach them.
...Al Qaeda (the Base), bin Laden's organisation, was established in 1987-88 to run the camps and other business enterprises. It is a tightly-run capitalist holding company — albeit one that integrates the operations of a mercenary force and related logistical services with "legitimate" business operations.

Bin Laden has simply continued to do the job he was asked to do in Afghanistan during the 1980s — fund, feed and train mercenaries. All that has changed is his primary customer. Then it was the ISI and, behind the scenes, the CIA. Today, his services are utilised primarily by the reactionary Taliban regime.

Bin Laden only became a "terrorist" in US eyes when he fell out with the Saudi royal family over its decision to allow more than 540,000 US troops to be stationed on Saudi soil following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.
...



You can read up on Operation Cyclone. "Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm, train, and finance the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, 1979 to 1989." That is the brief definition from Wikipedia, but you can read an article on it here: http://dangeroustravel.blogspot.com/2008/01/defeated-by-his-success.html or you can just google Operation Cyclone.     

 

[breezylocks]

real life...


NO PICS, NO PROOF....

 

[jd214]

Watching a bunch of the Tim Osman videos and him working for the CIA and the US giving them money has opened my eyes.

 

[jd214]

Watching a bunch of the Tim Osman videos and him working for the CIA and the US giving them money has opened my eyes.

 

[dimeslikehefner]