PALESTINIAN GENOCIDE - ISRAELI-TERRORISM AWARENESS THREAD

[useref15]

Since you love to oversimplify things, let me break it down for you. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, the Jews declared Gaza as their land which Palestinians were already living on. Israeli's moved in and took over more and more land. Israel, with the help of U.S. taxpayer money, basically blockades and controls borders of Palestinians. In every major conflict between the two, Palestinians were killed in disproportionate numbers.


Also, 1 out of 5 people killed since the beginning of the conflict has been a Palestinian child. When you see these numbers, it's hard to ignore. Hate to use antagonistic language when having a civilized discussion, but it seems you are being a bit naïve. How "IDF killing a bunch of innocent people" gets spun into "Hamas rockets forces Israel to protect itself" is beyond me sometimes, but that's the tired *** narrative that some people eat up all day everyday (i.e. Fox News demographic).

Have you not read the past 44 pages of this thread? I've condemned civilian deaths a bunch of times. However, the numbers are skewed a bit. We already know one sides protects its civilians while the other side thrives on the pictures of dead innocent civilians. Tell me why Hamas hasn't invested in the Palestinian population in Gaza by giving them shelters and etc? Because they'd rather invest that money to the destruction of Israel. You know what they could have done with that 600,000 tons of concrete? Thats why their boarders need to be controlled. Give them the freedom of open boarders, and it backfires on Israel.

 

[duba169]

It's not a ******* kick ball game. Ain't no fair way to have more people on your side die. It's not a basketball game where one side gets too many fremails throws. It's war. War is terrible, horrible, painful, scary. It's not fair

How do they determine who is a fighter and civilian? They don't wear uniforms. Never mind the other factors that have been discussed over and over

 

[patt]

It's not a ******* kick ball game. Ain't no fair way to have more people on your side die. It's not a basketball game where one side gets too many fremails throws. It's war. War is terrible, horrible, painful, scary. It's not fair

How do they determine who is a fighter and civilian? They don't wear uniforms. Never mind the other factors that have been discussed over and over

When you're locked down and barricaded, must be hard to get some coordinating uniforms... Your argument is ridiculous to begin with. You are saying because Hamas don't wear military dress that gives Israel carte blanche to indiscriminately fire rockets into Palestinian civilian zones. That would be like saying because of 9/11 we should go ahead and nuke Afghanistan.

 

[useref15]

When you're locked down and barricaded, must be hard to get some coordinating uniforms... Your argument is ridiculous to begin with. You are saying because Hamas don't wear military dress that gives Israel carte blanche to indiscriminately fire rockets into Palestinian civilian zones. That would be like saying because of 9/11 we should go ahead and nuke Afghanistan.

The thing is, they wear uniforms for pictures and videos, just not in battle.

Actually, they will throw on some IDF uniforms in combat.

 

[patt]

Have you not read the past 44 pages of this thread? I've condemned civilian deaths a bunch of times. However, the numbers are skewed a bit. We already know one sides protects its civilians while the other side thrives on the pictures of dead innocent civilians. Tell me why Hamas hasn't invested in the Palestinian population in Gaza by giving them shelters and etc? Because they'd rather invest that money to the destruction of Israel. You know what they could have done with that 600,000 tons of concrete? Thats why their boarders need to be controlled. Give them the freedom of open boarders, and it backfires on Israel.

When you are being oppressed, it's sort of hard to let go of the anger and decide to become ****** Robin Hood. But that's just my guess. Never experienced that level of human rights infringements.

 

[duba169]

Yeah build million dollar tunnels and can't coordinate clothing? Nope. Sorry. Try again.

I was saying how do you know who is who when they are putting out the numbers of the dead. Not that they can go in and shoot anyone. A 16 year old with no uniform who was setting up a rocket is a combatant. But who knows how that will be counted

Listen if they Wana keep fighting the good fight then I don't know what to tell you. Israel isn't opening their borders when a group determined to kill every jew. And that's who hamas is

Try to get egypt to lift the blockade first. Not that many of u seem to care about that part

 

[patt]

Have

Yeah build million dollar tunnels and can't coordinate clothing? Nope. Sorry. Try again.

I was saying how do you know who is who when they are putting out the numbers of the dead. Not that they can go in and shoot anyone. A 16 year old with no uniform who was setting up a rocket is a combatant. But who knows how that will be counted

Listen if they Wana keep fighting the good fight then I don't know what to tell you. Israel isn't opening their borders when a group determined to kill every jew. And that's who hamas is

Try to get egypt to lift the blockade first. Not that many of u seem to care about that part

Have you not considered that Palestinians were basically robbed of their land and oppressed and killed? Have you not considered that (right or wrong) this may be why Hamas is intent on killing Jews. It's easy to write them off as a barbaric, ruthless people but they were **** on first.

 

[duba169]

It wasn't their land to keep or give. They were offered part of land by forces that actually had power over it. They declined. Jews had it stolen as well didn't they? Many years ago. As if you care

I couldn't give a **** about rationalizing why hamas wants to kill every jew. You have fun with that. Because it damn sure isn't the same thing as "we want our own country"

 

[patt]

It wasn't their land to keep or give. They were offered part of land by forces that actually had power over it. They declined. Jews had it stolen as well didn't they? Many years ago. As if you care

I couldn't give a **** about rationalizing why hamas wants to kill every jew. You have fun with that. Because it damn sure isn't the same thing as "we want our own country"

I'm not going to justify Hamas killing innocents. It should go without saying that that is never right and should be condemned. But my general opinion on the conflict still stands.

 

[Animal Thug]

It wasn't their land to keep or give. They were offered part of land by forces that actually had power over it. They declined.

Offered? Like legitimately offered, with peaceful intentions?

Have you forgotten that the Stern and Irgun groups terrorized the Arab population in and around Al-Quds since 1920's?

Then, the Stern and Irgun groups were migrated into what is now known as the IDF today.

Shall I post all the terrorist attacks placed by the Stern and Irgun groups? That unlawfully kicked and forced hundreds of THOUSANDS of Palestinians out of Palestine, after the people of Palestine OPENLY WELCOMED the Jewish people to seek Asylum without an issue, until they felt the need to take over violenty?

 

[Animal Thug]

And I have to follow up and laugh at the fact that you said it wasn't their land to keep or give....how ignorant. As if the Palestinian people didn't live and mantain a presence there for over 3,000 years.

 

[patt]

And I have to follow up and laugh at the fact that you said it wasn't their land to keep or give....how ignorant. As if the Palestinian people didn't live and mantain a presence there for over 3,000 years.

Agreed. Israel supporters forget that 80% of the Palestinian population that lived in modern day Israel were basically kicked out of their homes.

 

[duba169]

On ottoman land? Or British land?

Or Israeli land? Since they were there before them.

Or Roman land?

I was referring to what was offered by the Brits and UN.

And plenty of land was legally sold to the jews not everything was a big attack

 

[peteymcflight]

Lol troll

 

[leavemeglazzies]

Since you love to oversimplify things, let me break it down for you. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, Israel declared Gaza as their land which Palestinians were already living on. Israel moved in and took over more and more land. Israel, with the help of U.S. taxpayer money, basically blockades and controls borders of Palestinians. In every major conflict between the two, Palestinians were killed in disproportionate numbers (an understatement).

2008 Casualties:


2012 Casualties:


2014 Casualties (thus far):


Also, 1 out of 5 people killed since the beginning of the conflict has been a Palestinian child. When you see these numbers, it's hard to ignore. Hate to use antagonistic language when having a civilized discussion, but it seems you are being a bit naïve. How "IDF killing a bunch of innocent people" gets spun into "Hamas rockets force Israel to protect itself" is beyond me sometimes, but that's the tired *** narrative that some people eat up all day everyday (i.e. Fox News demographic).

Since so few Israelis are actually dying from these terrifying rockets that Hamas is firing, you'd think that they would work a little harder to keep the ratio of Palestinian civilians/children killed lower, but the fact of the matter is that they are either militarily incompetent or just plain don't give a **** about killing off Palestinians. It's almost certainly the latter of the two.

 

[whywesteppin]

The question is, has Hamas gained anything at all by firing their rockets?

What's that saying about insanity and doing the same thing over and over.

 

[duba169]

Maybe if they threw uniforms on to distinguish themelves from the innocents and didn't shoot off rockets out of hospitals the civilian casualties would be lower. But then how would they gain sympathy? Stop refusing to believe that this is what hamas wants

If the rockets don't do any damage why fire them? Seems like a waste of money and a terrible way to convince someone to stop a blockade. How can they allow cement in when it turns to tunnels? And weaponry that will be used against them ?

 

[copped]

you guys still arguing with these zionist supporters?


this thread is a joke...

 

[gry60]

It wasn't their land to keep or give. They were offered part of land by forces that actually had power over it. They declined. Jews had it stolen as well didn't they? Many years ago. As if you care

I couldn't give a **** about rationalizing why hamas wants to kill every jew. You have fun with that. Because it damn sure isn't the same thing as "we want our own country"

Look man, you make a very important misconception in the beginning of your comment:

The British did NOT own the land, they ADMINISTERED it after the defeat of the Ottomans. On the international stage, they represented those lands, but they were supposed to meddle as little as possible in the internal affairs of the people living in those areas. Like the great imperialists they were, they and the French decided to arbitrarily carve out borders without consulting the people who lived in those territories in order to secure access to the resources (oil) that were present there. Both powers did the exact same thing in many African countries and everywhere else they were given supervising powers by the League of Nations in 1918 and the UN in 1945. Some, like the Saudis, were satisfied with what they got, and others were not. Some populations got over it and others didn't, hence the current conflict. Again, THE BRITISH DIDN'T OWN SQUAT IN THE MIDDLE EAST, NOR IN AFRICA OR ASIA, they were only administrators.

 

[duba169]

I see the word "supposed" to. Has no meaning. Brits controlled the land and did what they did along with the UN and here we are. I agree some people didn't get over it and here we are

 

[me love nutella]

 whywesteppin,

Why is Chomsky not to be taken as serious for his commentary on this conflict? He is a political commentator and activist as well. he is well versed in many topics and fields besides linguistics. There is a reason why he is voted as the world's top public intellectual. He has been publicly commenting on foreign policy since 1967 when he gained public attention for his vocal opposition to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War, and came to be associated with the New Left movement while being arrested on multiple occasions for his anti-war activism. In fact, he continues to be VERY well known as a political activist, and a leading critic of U.S. foriegn policy, state capitalism, and the mainstream news media. 

He has even written a few books on the Middle Eastern conflicts. Have you ever read his very well received and critiqued book The Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians? 

 

[duba169]

You don't think a political activist with clearly strong beliefs might be biased here and there? Mentioning his opinions is fine but there are people here posting his thoughts as if it ends the debate. "See! Noam said it! The end!"

 

[me love nutella]

I see the word "supposed" to. Has no meaning. Brits controlled the land and did what they did along with the UN and here we are. I agree some people didn't get over it and here we are

And? Your point? 

Does not mean Palestinians did not have the rights or claims to that land as you repeatedly like to say. It was their land.

They RIGHTFULLY had the right to refuse the U.N. partition plan. 

This is completely understandable from a historical point of view to why the Arabs rejected the proposal. Why would Arabs have accepted this? When they were still the majority at the time until the creation of Israel in 1948? What kind of a plan is this, giving more fertile land to the Jews, and even coming on to their land to create a Jewish state out of NOWHERE? Without consulting the Arab natives there either? The Arabs knew the plan for Zionism was to fight and expand beyond what was given to them and that became true. It was strategically planned this way. 

Do you really think the Zionists just wanted the 1948 borders given to them by the U.N.? You know the Western Wall was not given to them for the Israeli state right? It was Jordan who took it over in 1948. Zionists also believe they have to destroy the Dome of the Rock because they believe that Temples are supposedly there. They always wanted all that land and their plan was to have all this set up to take it over all.

Palestinian Arab claims to the land are based on their continuous residence in the country for THOUSANDS of years and the fact that they represented the demographic majority until 1948. They reject the notion that a biblical-era kingdom constitutes the basis for a valid modern claim. If Arabs engage the biblical argument at all, they maintain that since Abraham’s son Ishmael is the forefather of the Arabs, then God’s promise of the land to the children of Abraham includes Arabs as well. They do not believe that they should forfeit their land to compensate Jews for Europe’s crimes against Jews.

Those thousands of years, Arabs and Jews lived peacefully amongst each other in that region. The Jewish presence at that the time DID NOT have any national sentiment or ambition for a Jewish state. There are reasons for this. A lot of the religious and dedicated Jews opposed Zionism  (to this day as well, in some groups call for a peaceful dismantling of the State of Israel) in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Jewish Messiah. It was the Jews in Europe who had no ties to the land at the time who spearheaded Zionism.

The way Palestine was stolen from the indigenous Arabs, was just like any other colonization which uprooted its people to create a homeland for outsiders. Of course the native Arabs would never have accepted this.

BUT, what is done is done and majority of Arabs in Palestine want an end to their occupation and self-determination which they have the right to claim under international law and human rights. As an oppressed and subjugated population, they will fight until they retain their freedom. 

 

[peteymcflight]

You don't think a political activist with clearly strong beliefs might be biased here and there? Mentioning his opinions is fine but there are people here posting his thoughts as if it ends the debate. "See! Noam said it! The end!"

So this is where the debate ends. You think Noam is wrong/biased in his assessment of the conflict. Most of us think Noam is right/fair in his assessment of the conflict.

 

[me love nutella]

You don't think a political activist with clearly strong beliefs might be biased here and there? Mentioning his opinions is fine but there are people here posting his thoughts as if it ends the debate. "See! Noam said it! The end!"

No, it is not like that.

It is to post his insight into this discussion which a lot of us here agree with. Just like with the other end posting from authors whose views they think represent the debate clearly and in a valid way to them.