Pippen Says LeBron is "Best Player Ever"

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by MrONegative

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Uh, no. My original point was that you can't take what former players say about basketball talent as gospel just because they were former players. Malta then asked who I thought made the best talent evaluators if not former players, and I said what I said.
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And your evidence against whatever he thinks about LeBron is that he couldn't scout college players. Brilliant.
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Reading is fundamental. I basically said just because Pippen was a great player doesn't mean he is right in making this comparison, reason being is that former players aren't necessarily great talent evaluators. Not sure what the problem is with that assertion, or why you're obsessing over semantics.
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Yeah...but it's not '06 or '07 anymore. We're not talking about what he will or could be, just what he's putting out right in front of us. Pippen is who he is, been through what's he been through. It's much if your argument is, well he was great, but what would he know. He might be caught up in the moment, but forget that evaluating talent mess. It's not the off-season when everyone forgets what players are good at.
 
I wont make comparisons till LeBron is close to retirement.

They ALWAYSSSSSSSS do this when either kobe or lebron do something spectacular in a playoff game.
 
I wont make comparisons till LeBron is close to retirement.

They ALWAYSSSSSSSS do this when either kobe or lebron do something spectacular in a playoff game.
 
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that pasds after 2:07
 
Originally Posted by OnionSlice

Originally Posted by illfrozn

Originally Posted by OnionSlice

Changing teams means NOTHING!!! What if Wade and Bosh would have went to Cleveland? It would have been the same thing, but LeBron would have stuck with his team and "built a dynasty". You're really just complaining about the jersey on his back and the logo on the floor. I can guarantee you nobody thinks Shaq is any less of an all time great because he had to go to LA win win. Nobody cares that Kareem went to LA to grab 5 of his 6 chips.

AT THE END OF LEBRON'S CAREER, NOBODY WILL CARE THAT HE CHANGED TEAMS.

You can pretend that MJ stayed on the "same team", but in reality, the only players on the 2nd 3peat that were on the first one are MJ and Pippen. Entirely different team. Look at the Laker roster for Kobe's first 3 rings and the roster for his last 2. They wear the same uniform, but it's not the same team. You're really just complaining about a logo.
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1. If Wade and Bosh went to Cleveland, they would be receiving the heat (no pun) and yes, few would be upset with LeBron. Also, Wade already brought a championship to Miami. And I think we saw Bosh carry a team that tried to rebuild two or three times and was never really good. That didn't happen to LeBron.

2. Those guys (Shaq, Kareem, etc) were NOT hailed as the GOAT. Plus, they did not promise to bring a championship to their team. On top of it all, neither player joined a team with guys in their prime and the top 5 at the position. Also, Kareem was traded, dude. He didn't make the choice.

3. When people say "same team", you know they mean they didn't leave via choice, right? So, yes, MJ stayed with the same team, regardless of the moves of the FO. Can't believe you actually said that like some defense.
laugh.gif


4. Also, the reason that the Bulls were so different when MJ returned is that the team had tried to build itself in a different way (around Pippen) and without the greatest player in basketball. So, when he came back, they tried to assemble a team that fit their franchise player. A team very similar to the first three rings.
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1. LeBron is the same situation as Bosh. He played for a franchise that was NEVER serious about building a championship caliber team. Do you honestly think Mo Williams, 33 year old Antawn Jamison and a 37 year old Shaq were the best they could acquire? You say Bosh had to carry a bad team, but it's the same with LeBron. You could even make the argument that the Raptors without Bosh are a better team than the Cavs without LeBron.

2. Kareem wasn't considered as the possible GOAT??? Of corse he was. He still is. Kareem DID bring a chip to the Bucks. He didn't get traded to a great Laker team, but shortly after, they drafted Magic Johnson. He won 5 titles on one of the most stacked teams in history. AND, he actually did choose to be traded. He asked for it because after he became a muslim and changed his name, he wanted to go to a larger city where he would be able to practice his religion with other muslims. The Bucks franchise were nice enough to agree and traded him to LA.

3. It's not a defense. Tons of players get traded every year. Tons of free agents choose their team of choice every year. There's nothing to defend about. Kobe desperately wanted to get traded from the Lakers. He even asked publicly to get traded. The only reason he didn't go to another team is that the Lakers didn't agree to it. Would it have made him lesser of a player? Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with it. There's no honor in losing and there's even less honor in sticking with a bad team for the $$$.
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1. They were not in the same boat. Bosh's team regularly underachieved. The only "underachievement" you could give to the Cavs was not winning a title or being eliminated earlier than planned, but that's how sports are -- no promises are made. And the reason that his team couldn't become "championship" caliber has a lot to do with LeBron. Those teams were made to KEEP LeBron, not to grow with him. The only commitment he made to the Cavs was to bring them a championship (
laugh.gif
) and to give his all (which he did almost 100% of the time), but there was no way that team was going to win when the FO was forced to build around LeBron with a small window of time in mind. They went out and got some of the best players available at that time (and usually veterans). Looking back, yes, there were a lot of fails, but that's what happens when you build a team the wrong way. I feel that their hand was forced by LBJ and his actions ...

2. Ok, then, let's say Kareem was touted as the GOAT. Did he call himself that? Does he have a tattoo stating that?? Also, requesting or forcing a trade for personal reasons is MUCH different than what LBJ did. Also, the Lakers weren't very good at that time and there was no free agent coup with other players that were at top 5 at their positions. What does him being on  a stacked team have to do with anything??

3. But you said it as if the Bulls were assembled like the current Heat roster.
 
Originally Posted by OnionSlice

Originally Posted by illfrozn

Originally Posted by OnionSlice

Changing teams means NOTHING!!! What if Wade and Bosh would have went to Cleveland? It would have been the same thing, but LeBron would have stuck with his team and "built a dynasty". You're really just complaining about the jersey on his back and the logo on the floor. I can guarantee you nobody thinks Shaq is any less of an all time great because he had to go to LA win win. Nobody cares that Kareem went to LA to grab 5 of his 6 chips.

AT THE END OF LEBRON'S CAREER, NOBODY WILL CARE THAT HE CHANGED TEAMS.

You can pretend that MJ stayed on the "same team", but in reality, the only players on the 2nd 3peat that were on the first one are MJ and Pippen. Entirely different team. Look at the Laker roster for Kobe's first 3 rings and the roster for his last 2. They wear the same uniform, but it's not the same team. You're really just complaining about a logo.
Click to expand...
1. If Wade and Bosh went to Cleveland, they would be receiving the heat (no pun) and yes, few would be upset with LeBron. Also, Wade already brought a championship to Miami. And I think we saw Bosh carry a team that tried to rebuild two or three times and was never really good. That didn't happen to LeBron.

2. Those guys (Shaq, Kareem, etc) were NOT hailed as the GOAT. Plus, they did not promise to bring a championship to their team. On top of it all, neither player joined a team with guys in their prime and the top 5 at the position. Also, Kareem was traded, dude. He didn't make the choice.

3. When people say "same team", you know they mean they didn't leave via choice, right? So, yes, MJ stayed with the same team, regardless of the moves of the FO. Can't believe you actually said that like some defense.
laugh.gif


4. Also, the reason that the Bulls were so different when MJ returned is that the team had tried to build itself in a different way (around Pippen) and without the greatest player in basketball. So, when he came back, they tried to assemble a team that fit their franchise player. A team very similar to the first three rings.
Click to expand...
1. LeBron is the same situation as Bosh. He played for a franchise that was NEVER serious about building a championship caliber team. Do you honestly think Mo Williams, 33 year old Antawn Jamison and a 37 year old Shaq were the best they could acquire? You say Bosh had to carry a bad team, but it's the same with LeBron. You could even make the argument that the Raptors without Bosh are a better team than the Cavs without LeBron.

2. Kareem wasn't considered as the possible GOAT??? Of corse he was. He still is. Kareem DID bring a chip to the Bucks. He didn't get traded to a great Laker team, but shortly after, they drafted Magic Johnson. He won 5 titles on one of the most stacked teams in history. AND, he actually did choose to be traded. He asked for it because after he became a muslim and changed his name, he wanted to go to a larger city where he would be able to practice his religion with other muslims. The Bucks franchise were nice enough to agree and traded him to LA.

3. It's not a defense. Tons of players get traded every year. Tons of free agents choose their team of choice every year. There's nothing to defend about. Kobe desperately wanted to get traded from the Lakers. He even asked publicly to get traded. The only reason he didn't go to another team is that the Lakers didn't agree to it. Would it have made him lesser of a player? Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with it. There's no honor in losing and there's even less honor in sticking with a bad team for the $$$.
Click to expand...
1. They were not in the same boat. Bosh's team regularly underachieved. The only "underachievement" you could give to the Cavs was not winning a title or being eliminated earlier than planned, but that's how sports are -- no promises are made. And the reason that his team couldn't become "championship" caliber has a lot to do with LeBron. Those teams were made to KEEP LeBron, not to grow with him. The only commitment he made to the Cavs was to bring them a championship (
laugh.gif
) and to give his all (which he did almost 100% of the time), but there was no way that team was going to win when the FO was forced to build around LeBron with a small window of time in mind. They went out and got some of the best players available at that time (and usually veterans). Looking back, yes, there were a lot of fails, but that's what happens when you build a team the wrong way. I feel that their hand was forced by LBJ and his actions ...

2. Ok, then, let's say Kareem was touted as the GOAT. Did he call himself that? Does he have a tattoo stating that?? Also, requesting or forcing a trade for personal reasons is MUCH different than what LBJ did. Also, the Lakers weren't very good at that time and there was no free agent coup with other players that were at top 5 at their positions. What does him being on  a stacked team have to do with anything??

3. But you said it as if the Bulls were assembled like the current Heat roster.
 
Originally Posted by illfrozn

Originally Posted by OnionSlice

Originally Posted by illfrozn

1. If Wade and Bosh went to Cleveland, they would be receiving the heat (no pun) and yes, few would be upset with LeBron. Also, Wade already brought a championship to Miami. And I think we saw Bosh carry a team that tried to rebuild two or three times and was never really good. That didn't happen to LeBron.

2. Those guys (Shaq, Kareem, etc) were NOT hailed as the GOAT. Plus, they did not promise to bring a championship to their team. On top of it all, neither player joined a team with guys in their prime and the top 5 at the position. Also, Kareem was traded, dude. He didn't make the choice.

3. When people say "same team", you know they mean they didn't leave via choice, right? So, yes, MJ stayed with the same team, regardless of the moves of the FO. Can't believe you actually said that like some defense.
laugh.gif


4. Also, the reason that the Bulls were so different when MJ returned is that the team had tried to build itself in a different way (around Pippen) and without the greatest player in basketball. So, when he came back, they tried to assemble a team that fit their franchise player. A team very similar to the first three rings.
Click to expand...
1. LeBron is the same situation as Bosh. He played for a franchise that was NEVER serious about building a championship caliber team. Do you honestly think Mo Williams, 33 year old Antawn Jamison and a 37 year old Shaq were the best they could acquire? You say Bosh had to carry a bad team, but it's the same with LeBron. You could even make the argument that the Raptors without Bosh are a better team than the Cavs without LeBron.

2. Kareem wasn't considered as the possible GOAT??? Of corse he was. He still is. Kareem DID bring a chip to the Bucks. He didn't get traded to a great Laker team, but shortly after, they drafted Magic Johnson. He won 5 titles on one of the most stacked teams in history. AND, he actually did choose to be traded. He asked for it because after he became a muslim and changed his name, he wanted to go to a larger city where he would be able to practice his religion with other muslims. The Bucks franchise were nice enough to agree and traded him to LA.

3. It's not a defense. Tons of players get traded every year. Tons of free agents choose their team of choice every year. There's nothing to defend about. Kobe desperately wanted to get traded from the Lakers. He even asked publicly to get traded. The only reason he didn't go to another team is that the Lakers didn't agree to it. Would it have made him lesser of a player? Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with it. There's no honor in losing and there's even less honor in sticking with a bad team for the $$$.
Click to expand...
1. They were not in the same boat. Bosh's team regularly underachieved. The only "underachievement" you could give to the Cavs was not winning a title or being eliminated earlier than planned, but that's how sports are -- no promises are made. And the reason that his team couldn't become "championship" caliber has a lot to do with LeBron. Those teams were made to KEEP LeBron, not to grow with him. The only commitment he made to the Cavs was to bring them a championship (
laugh.gif
) and to give his all (which he did almost 100% of the time), but there was no way that team was going to win when the FO was forced to build around LeBron with a small window of time in mind. They went out and got some of the best players available at that time (and usually veterans). Looking back, yes, there were a lot of fails, but that's what happens when you build a team the wrong way. I feel that their hand was forced by LBJ and his actions ...

2. Ok, then, let's say Kareem was touted as the GOAT. Did he call himself that? Does he have a tattoo stating that?? Also, requesting or forcing a trade for personal reasons is MUCH different than what LBJ did. Also, the Lakers weren't very good at that time and there was no free agent coup with other players that were at top 5 at their positions. What does him being on  a stacked team have to do with anything??

3. But you said it as if the Bulls were assembled like the current Heat roster.
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1. Not gonna argue with that. It's a perfectly legit argument. I still hold my position, but yours is reasonable.
2. Did he call himself the best? Did he have a "chosen one" tattoo? It doesn't matter. 

2b. Of corse it's different. One was traded, one was a free agent. Obviously. LeBron perfectly within his rights as a free agent to do whatever the hell he wanted to do.

3. No, they weren't assembled the same way. The point is, is that it doesn't matter. 

People can complain all they want about 3 free agents colluding to get together, but I don't see any threads about Wade or Bosh being punks because they needed to get 3 superstars together to win rings. Apparently LeBron is the only one who's a chump for doing what all 3 of them did. It's fake outrage. It's just an excuse to hate on LeBron for people who already hated him to begin with.
 
Originally Posted by illfrozn

Originally Posted by OnionSlice

Originally Posted by illfrozn

1. If Wade and Bosh went to Cleveland, they would be receiving the heat (no pun) and yes, few would be upset with LeBron. Also, Wade already brought a championship to Miami. And I think we saw Bosh carry a team that tried to rebuild two or three times and was never really good. That didn't happen to LeBron.

2. Those guys (Shaq, Kareem, etc) were NOT hailed as the GOAT. Plus, they did not promise to bring a championship to their team. On top of it all, neither player joined a team with guys in their prime and the top 5 at the position. Also, Kareem was traded, dude. He didn't make the choice.

3. When people say "same team", you know they mean they didn't leave via choice, right? So, yes, MJ stayed with the same team, regardless of the moves of the FO. Can't believe you actually said that like some defense.
laugh.gif


4. Also, the reason that the Bulls were so different when MJ returned is that the team had tried to build itself in a different way (around Pippen) and without the greatest player in basketball. So, when he came back, they tried to assemble a team that fit their franchise player. A team very similar to the first three rings.
Click to expand...
1. LeBron is the same situation as Bosh. He played for a franchise that was NEVER serious about building a championship caliber team. Do you honestly think Mo Williams, 33 year old Antawn Jamison and a 37 year old Shaq were the best they could acquire? You say Bosh had to carry a bad team, but it's the same with LeBron. You could even make the argument that the Raptors without Bosh are a better team than the Cavs without LeBron.

2. Kareem wasn't considered as the possible GOAT??? Of corse he was. He still is. Kareem DID bring a chip to the Bucks. He didn't get traded to a great Laker team, but shortly after, they drafted Magic Johnson. He won 5 titles on one of the most stacked teams in history. AND, he actually did choose to be traded. He asked for it because after he became a muslim and changed his name, he wanted to go to a larger city where he would be able to practice his religion with other muslims. The Bucks franchise were nice enough to agree and traded him to LA.

3. It's not a defense. Tons of players get traded every year. Tons of free agents choose their team of choice every year. There's nothing to defend about. Kobe desperately wanted to get traded from the Lakers. He even asked publicly to get traded. The only reason he didn't go to another team is that the Lakers didn't agree to it. Would it have made him lesser of a player? Absolutely not. There's nothing wrong with it. There's no honor in losing and there's even less honor in sticking with a bad team for the $$$.
Click to expand...
1. They were not in the same boat. Bosh's team regularly underachieved. The only "underachievement" you could give to the Cavs was not winning a title or being eliminated earlier than planned, but that's how sports are -- no promises are made. And the reason that his team couldn't become "championship" caliber has a lot to do with LeBron. Those teams were made to KEEP LeBron, not to grow with him. The only commitment he made to the Cavs was to bring them a championship (
laugh.gif
) and to give his all (which he did almost 100% of the time), but there was no way that team was going to win when the FO was forced to build around LeBron with a small window of time in mind. They went out and got some of the best players available at that time (and usually veterans). Looking back, yes, there were a lot of fails, but that's what happens when you build a team the wrong way. I feel that their hand was forced by LBJ and his actions ...

2. Ok, then, let's say Kareem was touted as the GOAT. Did he call himself that? Does he have a tattoo stating that?? Also, requesting or forcing a trade for personal reasons is MUCH different than what LBJ did. Also, the Lakers weren't very good at that time and there was no free agent coup with other players that were at top 5 at their positions. What does him being on  a stacked team have to do with anything??

3. But you said it as if the Bulls were assembled like the current Heat roster.
Click to expand...
1. Not gonna argue with that. It's a perfectly legit argument. I still hold my position, but yours is reasonable.
2. Did he call himself the best? Did he have a "chosen one" tattoo? It doesn't matter. 

2b. Of corse it's different. One was traded, one was a free agent. Obviously. LeBron perfectly within his rights as a free agent to do whatever the hell he wanted to do.

3. No, they weren't assembled the same way. The point is, is that it doesn't matter. 

People can complain all they want about 3 free agents colluding to get together, but I don't see any threads about Wade or Bosh being punks because they needed to get 3 superstars together to win rings. Apparently LeBron is the only one who's a chump for doing what all 3 of them did. It's fake outrage. It's just an excuse to hate on LeBron for people who already hated him to begin with.
 
The whole rings argument is tired but it has merit to it. If you are one of the best of all time essentially you should have championship success behind it. Yes no one can do it alone, but it's not like Barkley, Malone, Ewing, or Payton (during his Sonics days) didn't have good teammates. The only problem they faced was of course running into Jordan.
I'm just going to name a list of players off the top of my head who are considered top 10:

Shaq

Duncan

Olajuwon

Jordan 

Magic

Bird

Russell

Wilt 

Kareem

Kobe (debatable but I think he's there)

All of them have rings. I'm not saying LeBron is not capable of winning a ring, but in order to be at least considered GOAT he would have to win a ring as the best player on his team. That seems to be the consensus between many. He can probably win it this year (and he probably will). But we'll see. His overall skillset and athleticism are nothing the NBA has seen before. He does have a case but that's only if he wins a ring. The whole comparing bad players vs. good players like Derek Fisher and CP3 is stupid because Fisher is nothing but a marginal role player. Comparisons like those are so ludicrous because no one in their right mind would take Fisher over CP3. We know there's an immense talent gap. The logic that player A is better than player B because he has more rings is flawed but it should only be used in the case of comparing greats.
 
The whole rings argument is tired but it has merit to it. If you are one of the best of all time essentially you should have championship success behind it. Yes no one can do it alone, but it's not like Barkley, Malone, Ewing, or Payton (during his Sonics days) didn't have good teammates. The only problem they faced was of course running into Jordan.
I'm just going to name a list of players off the top of my head who are considered top 10:

Shaq

Duncan

Olajuwon

Jordan 

Magic

Bird

Russell

Wilt 

Kareem

Kobe (debatable but I think he's there)

All of them have rings. I'm not saying LeBron is not capable of winning a ring, but in order to be at least considered GOAT he would have to win a ring as the best player on his team. That seems to be the consensus between many. He can probably win it this year (and he probably will). But we'll see. His overall skillset and athleticism are nothing the NBA has seen before. He does have a case but that's only if he wins a ring. The whole comparing bad players vs. good players like Derek Fisher and CP3 is stupid because Fisher is nothing but a marginal role player. Comparisons like those are so ludicrous because no one in their right mind would take Fisher over CP3. We know there's an immense talent gap. The logic that player A is better than player B because he has more rings is flawed but it should only be used in the case of comparing greats.
 
Originally Posted by OnionSlice

LEBRON JAMES HAS NO CASE AGAINST MICHAEL JORDAN.

Not only does he have no case against MJ, he has NO CASE against Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq. HE IS NOT EVEN A TOP 10 OF ALL TIME.

*IF* He can grab 5 or 6 rings & finals MVP's and maintain the level of play he has had for the past 3 seasons, you have to put him in the conversation with MJ. At this point though, you can't do it. I don't think ever will. I think at the end of his NBA career he'll be there with Magic & Larry, but not MJ. It's possible, but it's gonna be really hard to maintain his current level of play for 6-8 more seasons.
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pimp.gif
 
Originally Posted by OnionSlice

LEBRON JAMES HAS NO CASE AGAINST MICHAEL JORDAN.

Not only does he have no case against MJ, he has NO CASE against Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq. HE IS NOT EVEN A TOP 10 OF ALL TIME.

*IF* He can grab 5 or 6 rings & finals MVP's and maintain the level of play he has had for the past 3 seasons, you have to put him in the conversation with MJ. At this point though, you can't do it. I don't think ever will. I think at the end of his NBA career he'll be there with Magic & Larry, but not MJ. It's possible, but it's gonna be really hard to maintain his current level of play for 6-8 more seasons.
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pimp.gif
 
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