The word God is nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness.

[nat turner]

Gentlemen.

The difference between Humans and animals, is in our ability to use REASON.  Animals kill due to instinct. Humans kill for survival. Human beings are not inherently evil, but the first right of every human being is self preservation. We do what is necessary to survive, within reason. None of this has anything to do with any higher deity, and this is why the actuality of some "god", especially the "god of abraham", is highly improbable. 

 

[nat turner]

Gentlemen.

The difference between Humans and animals, is in our ability to use REASON.  Animals kill due to instinct. Humans kill for survival. Human beings are not inherently evil, but the first right of every human being is self preservation. We do what is necessary to survive, within reason. None of this has anything to do with any higher deity, and this is why the actuality of some "god", especially the "god of abraham", is highly improbable. 

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by Master Zik

Originally Posted by red mpls

The irony of the constant barrage of threads like this is that those making them seem just as, if not more, obsessed with religion and God than the so-called religious fanatics... and are convinced that your point of view is the correct one just as much as the staunchest of believers... and attempt to force your beliefs on others just as much as those you mock and insult.

The religious had a couple hundred years head start and then like a 8 century movement. Those that subscribe to the opposite have only recently increased.

And your response is relevant... how?  Your response is not even accurate and really has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of the actions of some non-believers (which I described in my post).

Originally Posted by ShaunHillFTW49

And
it also  happens  the other  way around, too. Many atheists have
suppressed peoples freedom to be religious  outside the US. Priests
were  executed by the government in Mexico.  For a long time   china
didn't allow people to be openly religious. Religious people in  the
USSR  had it much worse  than non-believers in America.

And OP's response is.....?  Or do you only care about such matters when it is the religious who are culpable and not the non-believers?

1. When religion calls for bigotry, are we not supposed to fight it? Posts like this make it more acceptable for closet atheists to come out. 5 years ago on NT, you wouldn't have ever seen this much religion topics on here.

2. Those atheists made atheism a state religion. Atheism doesn't call for the execution of people. Religion does.

When did I state that we should not fight bigotry from religious people?  Where are you getting this from?  And

at you justifying the number of religion-bashing threads with concern for "closet atheists" and letting them know it's OK to be an anonymous, faceless atheist on Niketalk.

As for your other "point," you are clearly refusing to deal with reality.  I thought that's what you and so many other atheists, agnostics, etc. prided yourselves so much on.  You don't have a real argument so you just say, "Well, those people turned atheism into a religion and that's why it was so bad... so it's really religion's fault again."

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by Master Zik

Originally Posted by red mpls

The irony of the constant barrage of threads like this is that those making them seem just as, if not more, obsessed with religion and God than the so-called religious fanatics... and are convinced that your point of view is the correct one just as much as the staunchest of believers... and attempt to force your beliefs on others just as much as those you mock and insult.

The religious had a couple hundred years head start and then like a 8 century movement. Those that subscribe to the opposite have only recently increased.

And your response is relevant... how?  Your response is not even accurate and really has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of the actions of some non-believers (which I described in my post).

Originally Posted by ShaunHillFTW49

And
it also  happens  the other  way around, too. Many atheists have
suppressed peoples freedom to be religious  outside the US. Priests
were  executed by the government in Mexico.  For a long time   china
didn't allow people to be openly religious. Religious people in  the
USSR  had it much worse  than non-believers in America.

And OP's response is.....?  Or do you only care about such matters when it is the religious who are culpable and not the non-believers?

1. When religion calls for bigotry, are we not supposed to fight it? Posts like this make it more acceptable for closet atheists to come out. 5 years ago on NT, you wouldn't have ever seen this much religion topics on here.

2. Those atheists made atheism a state religion. Atheism doesn't call for the execution of people. Religion does.

When did I state that we should not fight bigotry from religious people?  Where are you getting this from?  And

at you justifying the number of religion-bashing threads with concern for "closet atheists" and letting them know it's OK to be an anonymous, faceless atheist on Niketalk.

As for your other "point," you are clearly refusing to deal with reality.  I thought that's what you and so many other atheists, agnostics, etc. prided yourselves so much on.  You don't have a real argument so you just say, "Well, those people turned atheism into a religion and that's why it was so bad... so it's really religion's fault again."

 

[bijald0331]

Humans kill for a lot more than survival. You are right that we can reason. But is our first instinct to reason towards good or evil? Why do so many people in the world need to live in fear of something i.e. God, judgement, afterlife, etc.? Is it fearing what could happen if they pursued their true reasoning?

 

[bijald0331]

Humans kill for a lot more than survival. You are right that we can reason. But is our first instinct to reason towards good or evil? Why do so many people in the world need to live in fear of something i.e. God, judgement, afterlife, etc.? Is it fearing what could happen if they pursued their true reasoning?

 

[-Red-]

Yuku

 

[-Red-]

Yuku

 

[-Red-]

Again

 

[-Red-]

Again

 

[-Red-]

Third time

 

[-Red-]

Third time

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

 

-Many many many animals form strong family/ friendship bonds, so we aint special in that regard.


-What we define as evil is just our innate propensity of selfish and positively reinforcing behavior at the expense of others. There are many factors that determine whether we choose to engage in "evil" behaviors or not (you mentioned on of them...stress). People show less alltruism and more disregard for the wellbeing of other during times of stress. This is usually the opposite during times of economic growth etc. Some people commit evil for reasons unknown (boredom, psychological issues etc). On a macroscopic level, war is "evil", but such behavior is perpetuated and encouraged in many religious scriptures.

  
-Cliff notes: Our propensity for evil is based on individual cost-benefit analyses. People who steal know it is morally wrong, but the benefits for doing so outweigh the consequences (divine and mortal).

-I somewhat agree that religion is "natural", technically everything we do as human-beings is "natural"...no matter how little sense it makes.

Our propensity for higher thought is what truly separates us from animals, but we share more in common with them than we think.

I generally agree with you in discussions such as these but I don't agree here.

I know plenty of people who are innately good. They will put themselves at a disadvantage in order to help another person out. Even if that person is a complete stranger.

On the other hand, there are also plenty of people who are not innately bad but choose to be because it's easier to live that way. Then they use the excuse, "we're all selfish... we all operate on self interest....it's a cold world.." in order to absolve themselves.

There are some who are what you would call innately evil but they're just mentally %%%%#% up. Either born that way or an event led them there.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

 

-Many many many animals form strong family/ friendship bonds, so we aint special in that regard.


-What we define as evil is just our innate propensity of selfish and positively reinforcing behavior at the expense of others. There are many factors that determine whether we choose to engage in "evil" behaviors or not (you mentioned on of them...stress). People show less alltruism and more disregard for the wellbeing of other during times of stress. This is usually the opposite during times of economic growth etc. Some people commit evil for reasons unknown (boredom, psychological issues etc). On a macroscopic level, war is "evil", but such behavior is perpetuated and encouraged in many religious scriptures.

  
-Cliff notes: Our propensity for evil is based on individual cost-benefit analyses. People who steal know it is morally wrong, but the benefits for doing so outweigh the consequences (divine and mortal).

-I somewhat agree that religion is "natural", technically everything we do as human-beings is "natural"...no matter how little sense it makes.

Our propensity for higher thought is what truly separates us from animals, but we share more in common with them than we think.

I generally agree with you in discussions such as these but I don't agree here.

I know plenty of people who are innately good. They will put themselves at a disadvantage in order to help another person out. Even if that person is a complete stranger.

On the other hand, there are also plenty of people who are not innately bad but choose to be because it's easier to live that way. Then they use the excuse, "we're all selfish... we all operate on self interest....it's a cold world.." in order to absolve themselves.

There are some who are what you would call innately evil but they're just mentally %%%%#% up. Either born that way or an event led them there.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

For those saying religion is needed to keep those in order I disagree.  When people have daily necessities and comfort, there is no need for religion or any of that stuff.  The Scandinavian countries generally have the most wealth distribution of any developed nation.  Also, these countries have the highest percent of atheist/agnostics out of any countries.  When people don't have to worry about paying rent, putting food on their table, and so much more of the other things that we constantly stress about, these innately "evil" human behaviors dissipate.  That isn't to say life becomes perfect, but there is less misery surrounding you meaning you don't need to find an outlet, durgs/religion to put your faith into.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

For those saying religion is needed to keep those in order I disagree.  When people have daily necessities and comfort, there is no need for religion or any of that stuff.  The Scandinavian countries generally have the most wealth distribution of any developed nation.  Also, these countries have the highest percent of atheist/agnostics out of any countries.  When people don't have to worry about paying rent, putting food on their table, and so much more of the other things that we constantly stress about, these innately "evil" human behaviors dissipate.  That isn't to say life becomes perfect, but there is less misery surrounding you meaning you don't need to find an outlet, durgs/religion to put your faith into.

 

[nat turner]

bijald0331 wrote:

---

Humans kill for a lot more than survival. You are right that we can reason. But is our first instinct to reason towards good or evil? Why do so many people in the world need to live in fear of something i.e. God, judgement, afterlife, etc.? Is it fearing what could happen if they pursued their true reasoning?
 Killing for power is a fight for survival, whether it is intellectual survival, or simply to preserve ones way of life. In the end it is all survival. For animals, if they are hungry, they kill. Unless domesticated, they know that there is nobody to feed them but themselves. For humans,  good and evil is dictated by societal structure. To challenge the "King" could be said to be an act against "God", with those actions being deemed "evil". Fear is an emotion created to control people as well. If you have ever read some of what has been left out of the Bible, it is said that Solomon was also a sorcerer. His reputation as a sorcerer is what made him feared by those who might wish to challenge him. People do not NEED to fear, but people need to be feared in order for them to remain in power, when the ability to reason is present.

The usage of fear can render the human to animal like behaviours. A scared human no longer uses reason. A fearful being then turns to superstition for answers, which is deductive reasoning.

Fear can paralyze the human condition, making one look outside themselves for answers, those that should come from within.   

  

 

[nat turner]

bijald0331 wrote:

---

Humans kill for a lot more than survival. You are right that we can reason. But is our first instinct to reason towards good or evil? Why do so many people in the world need to live in fear of something i.e. God, judgement, afterlife, etc.? Is it fearing what could happen if they pursued their true reasoning?
 Killing for power is a fight for survival, whether it is intellectual survival, or simply to preserve ones way of life. In the end it is all survival. For animals, if they are hungry, they kill. Unless domesticated, they know that there is nobody to feed them but themselves. For humans,  good and evil is dictated by societal structure. To challenge the "King" could be said to be an act against "God", with those actions being deemed "evil". Fear is an emotion created to control people as well. If you have ever read some of what has been left out of the Bible, it is said that Solomon was also a sorcerer. His reputation as a sorcerer is what made him feared by those who might wish to challenge him. People do not NEED to fear, but people need to be feared in order for them to remain in power, when the ability to reason is present.

The usage of fear can render the human to animal like behaviours. A scared human no longer uses reason. A fearful being then turns to superstition for answers, which is deductive reasoning.

Fear can paralyze the human condition, making one look outside themselves for answers, those that should come from within.   

  

 

[wawaweewa]

The real reason that people flock towards religion is simple. It provides answers for questions that have none.

The reality is it is hard for many to fathom that there is no existence past death. No matter what we do or who we are we all have the same fate. You can be the most generous man in this world and you have the same fate as the biggest thief. You can live your entire life without killing a single organism and in the end your fate is the same as that of the a mass murderer. The variables of each life may be different but the result is always the same. Not one person has ever broken that rule.

The obvious question then becomes; does anything matter? Why not destroy, kill, and plunder? Is there a difference between being good and being bad?
Nature seems to not care either way.

That's what scares most people. Most people need affirmation for their actions. They need to justify their actions. Religion provides them that affirmation and justification.

Why do good people die young? Why do bad people haver everything? Why are some children born with horrible diseases? Why are some born into disadvantaged classes? Why are some born into wealthy nations? People want answers but the truth is the answer is variance. That's all it is; variance.
Most cannot except that a large component of life includes variance because variance is something that cannot be controlled.

 

[wawaweewa]

The real reason that people flock towards religion is simple. It provides answers for questions that have none.

The reality is it is hard for many to fathom that there is no existence past death. No matter what we do or who we are we all have the same fate. You can be the most generous man in this world and you have the same fate as the biggest thief. You can live your entire life without killing a single organism and in the end your fate is the same as that of the a mass murderer. The variables of each life may be different but the result is always the same. Not one person has ever broken that rule.

The obvious question then becomes; does anything matter? Why not destroy, kill, and plunder? Is there a difference between being good and being bad?
Nature seems to not care either way.

That's what scares most people. Most people need affirmation for their actions. They need to justify their actions. Religion provides them that affirmation and justification.

Why do good people die young? Why do bad people haver everything? Why are some children born with horrible diseases? Why are some born into disadvantaged classes? Why are some born into wealthy nations? People want answers but the truth is the answer is variance. That's all it is; variance.
Most cannot except that a large component of life includes variance because variance is something that cannot be controlled.

 

[bijald0331]

^If I am reading correctly, you are saying that fear is keeping humans from reasoning towards good things? If we didn't have fear, we would be better off? Not pointed questions; just trying to understand the argument.

 

[bijald0331]

^If I am reading correctly, you are saying that fear is keeping humans from reasoning towards good things? If we didn't have fear, we would be better off? Not pointed questions; just trying to understand the argument.

 

[retro23j]

 

[retro23j]

 

[nat turner]

Originally Posted by bijald0331

^If I am reading correctly, you are saying that fear is keeping humans from reasoning towards good things? If we didn't have fear, we would be better off? Not pointed questions; just trying to understand the argument.

If humans didn't have fear of the unknown, we'd be better off. Yes, fear keeps humans from learning and understanding. Good and evil are subjective terms.