The word God is nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness.

[nat turner]

Originally Posted by bijald0331

^If I am reading correctly, you are saying that fear is keeping humans from reasoning towards good things? If we didn't have fear, we would be better off? Not pointed questions; just trying to understand the argument.

If humans didn't have fear of the unknown, we'd be better off. Yes, fear keeps humans from learning and understanding. Good and evil are subjective terms.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

 

-Many many many animals form strong family/ friendship bonds, so we aint special in that regard.


-What we define as evil is just our innate propensity of selfish and positively reinforcing behavior at the expense of others. There are many factors that determine whether we choose to engage in "evil" behaviors or not (you mentioned on of them...stress). People show less alltruism and more disregard for the wellbeing of other during times of stress. This is usually the opposite during times of economic growth etc. Some people commit evil for reasons unknown (boredom, psychological issues etc). On a macroscopic level, war is "evil", but such behavior is perpetuated and encouraged in many religious scriptures.

  
-Cliff notes: Our propensity for evil is based on individual cost-benefit analyses. People who steal know it is morally wrong, but the benefits for doing so outweigh the consequences (divine and mortal).

-I somewhat agree that religion is "natural", technically everything we do as human-beings is "natural"...no matter how little sense it makes.

Our propensity for higher thought is what truly separates us from animals, but we share more in common with them than we think.

I generally agree with you in discussions such as these but I don't agree here.

I know plenty of people who are innately good. They will put themselves at a disadvantage in order to help another person out. Even if that person is a complete stranger.

On the other hand, there are also plenty of people who are not innately bad but choose to be because it's easier to live that way. Then they use the excuse, "we're all selfish... we all operate on self interest....it's a cold world.." in order to absolve themselves.

There are some who are what you would call innately evil but they're just mentally %%%%#% up. Either born that way or an event led them there.

Lemme revise what I said cause you do bring up some good points. When I say "innate", I'm not even focusing on the individual. My views on human evil are pretty "subjective" and based on how I view the world we live in and what I know about history. By my definition evil is based on simple moralistic principles of not inflicting great harm and suffering on others. By this definition many societies and civilizations that have flourished (including our own) are inherently built on evil (conquest, slavery etc).

-I also mentioned a lot of evil is situational...which if you think about it negates my assertion that a person can be innately evil. A lot of "Evils" are committed out of necessity. We honestly can't discuss the "innateness" of an individual's evilness until we remove environmental factors that lead to evil deeds (learned, societal stressors, etc.) People are products of their environments, classic nature vs. nurture debate. With that being said, some people are inequivocably evil by any measure (serial killers, genocidal dictators etc)

In summary, when I say innate I'm looking at humanity as a whole and even this is subjective and based on my outlook on life. When it comes to the individual, innateness is a difficult attribute to measure.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

 

-Many many many animals form strong family/ friendship bonds, so we aint special in that regard.


-What we define as evil is just our innate propensity of selfish and positively reinforcing behavior at the expense of others. There are many factors that determine whether we choose to engage in "evil" behaviors or not (you mentioned on of them...stress). People show less alltruism and more disregard for the wellbeing of other during times of stress. This is usually the opposite during times of economic growth etc. Some people commit evil for reasons unknown (boredom, psychological issues etc). On a macroscopic level, war is "evil", but such behavior is perpetuated and encouraged in many religious scriptures.

  
-Cliff notes: Our propensity for evil is based on individual cost-benefit analyses. People who steal know it is morally wrong, but the benefits for doing so outweigh the consequences (divine and mortal).

-I somewhat agree that religion is "natural", technically everything we do as human-beings is "natural"...no matter how little sense it makes.

Our propensity for higher thought is what truly separates us from animals, but we share more in common with them than we think.

I generally agree with you in discussions such as these but I don't agree here.

I know plenty of people who are innately good. They will put themselves at a disadvantage in order to help another person out. Even if that person is a complete stranger.

On the other hand, there are also plenty of people who are not innately bad but choose to be because it's easier to live that way. Then they use the excuse, "we're all selfish... we all operate on self interest....it's a cold world.." in order to absolve themselves.

There are some who are what you would call innately evil but they're just mentally %%%%#% up. Either born that way or an event led them there.

Lemme revise what I said cause you do bring up some good points. When I say "innate", I'm not even focusing on the individual. My views on human evil are pretty "subjective" and based on how I view the world we live in and what I know about history. By my definition evil is based on simple moralistic principles of not inflicting great harm and suffering on others. By this definition many societies and civilizations that have flourished (including our own) are inherently built on evil (conquest, slavery etc).

-I also mentioned a lot of evil is situational...which if you think about it negates my assertion that a person can be innately evil. A lot of "Evils" are committed out of necessity. We honestly can't discuss the "innateness" of an individual's evilness until we remove environmental factors that lead to evil deeds (learned, societal stressors, etc.) People are products of their environments, classic nature vs. nurture debate. With that being said, some people are inequivocably evil by any measure (serial killers, genocidal dictators etc)

In summary, when I say innate I'm looking at humanity as a whole and even this is subjective and based on my outlook on life. When it comes to the individual, innateness is a difficult attribute to measure.

 

[bijald0331]

Yea, innate is a terrible word for me to use since I always believe that first and foremost that existence precedes essence. Still, I think humans would be much more destructive without societal constructions such as religion. Like Nat said, people fear the unknown. That isn't going away anytime soon and I think that's a good thing for the majority of people.

 

[bijald0331]

Yea, innate is a terrible word for me to use since I always believe that first and foremost that existence precedes essence. Still, I think humans would be much more destructive without societal constructions such as religion. Like Nat said, people fear the unknown. That isn't going away anytime soon and I think that's a good thing for the majority of people.

 

[sevit86]

i like this thread, einstein

 

[sevit86]

i like this thread, einstein

 

[nat turner]

Originally Posted by bijald0331

Yea, innate is a terrible word for me to use since I always believe that first and foremost that existence precedes essence. Still, I think humans would be much more destructive without societal constructions such as religion. Like Nat said, people fear the unknown. That isn't going away anytime soon and I think that's a good thing for the majority of people.

Why is that? Fear is the main emotion behind racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and every other social ill known to man. Inductive reasoning promotes positive thought, enlightenment. Deductive reasoning allows myths and superstition to exist, promoting fear of the unknown.

 Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

One way to enslave any person, have him fear what he does not know.



 
  

 

[nat turner]

Originally Posted by bijald0331

Yea, innate is a terrible word for me to use since I always believe that first and foremost that existence precedes essence. Still, I think humans would be much more destructive without societal constructions such as religion. Like Nat said, people fear the unknown. That isn't going away anytime soon and I think that's a good thing for the majority of people.

Why is that? Fear is the main emotion behind racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and every other social ill known to man. Inductive reasoning promotes positive thought, enlightenment. Deductive reasoning allows myths and superstition to exist, promoting fear of the unknown.

 Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

One way to enslave any person, have him fear what he does not know.



 
  

 

[maurice mcl]

Originally Posted by dreamhigh

i ve seen prayers come true and lived miracles .. divine intervention ... ive witnessed it .. #%!$ einstein

I cant be the only one who though about Insane Clown Posse after reading this post

 

[maurice mcl]

Originally Posted by dreamhigh

i ve seen prayers come true and lived miracles .. divine intervention ... ive witnessed it .. #%!$ einstein

I cant be the only one who though about Insane Clown Posse after reading this post

 

[south sole]

When my Uncle was young he moved to Guatemala.  Guatemala is notorious for witchcraft, natives living there claim they see "spirits" of all sorts hovering around at night. Some of this paranormal entities include leprechauns (

)  and weeping widows ( here is the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona they appear  wearing a white gown as described by numerous witnesses who were petrified for being in close proximity; face to face. Anyway, my Uncle used to run off and go fraternize with this warlocks late at night whom were stationed in the highlands.  In doing so, that night he return back home completely psychologically hexed.  He said they dared him to drink water that has been tampered with. Doctors claimed is just another schizophrenic disorder. But I refuse to believe that, how does that happen overnight?  
He ain't been the same since... 

Now, is this works of EVIL for those who don't believe in it?   

 

[south sole]

When my Uncle was young he moved to Guatemala.  Guatemala is notorious for witchcraft, natives living there claim they see "spirits" of all sorts hovering around at night. Some of this paranormal entities include leprechauns (

)  and weeping widows ( here is the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona they appear  wearing a white gown as described by numerous witnesses who were petrified for being in close proximity; face to face. Anyway, my Uncle used to run off and go fraternize with this warlocks late at night whom were stationed in the highlands.  In doing so, that night he return back home completely psychologically hexed.  He said they dared him to drink water that has been tampered with. Doctors claimed is just another schizophrenic disorder. But I refuse to believe that, how does that happen overnight?  
He ain't been the same since... 

Now, is this works of EVIL for those who don't believe in it?   

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

torgriffith wrote:

---

proper english wrote:

---

i am an Atheist..  i have my reasons..




but i cant help to think that alot of you non-god believers do it to feel "holier-than-thou" (

).. constantly coming up with the same "I live a better/enlightened life because of what I DONT believe in..etc etc,, yada yada yada" shtick every time a religion thread pops-up. calm down already.. you guys are just as bad as the religious heads trying force feed us w/ their beliefs on here. 

Yep
What's funny is that scientist are using scientific method to study both athiest vs. religion debates such as these. 

 Ya'll both arms on the same body of ( I don't know). Just one side admits it, while the other side proclaims a truth. Both polar opposites of the same ideology. 

   I'm tryna separate this whole science vs. religion "debate". I use science first and foremost for practical reasons and admit that science does NOT have all the answers but they're are perpetually looking. Religious people are in here tryna front like their entire lives aren't affected in one way or another by "science". 


When it comes to the unknown, there are somethings science cannot prove. The difference between myself (strict agnostic) and a religious person is I don't make absolute statements about the unknown. I don't claim to know where I go when I die. I don't make attempts to describe a holy, higher-being I have never witnessed.

I don't know what happens when we die. I don't know/can't know if there is a God. I treat the scriptures in organized religion like I treat all other things fiction, but I still contemplate existence.


Even religious people use science to call ducktales on the unbelievable....just as long their own religion is left alone. If I told a religious person that I'm supersaiyan and can shoot bolts of energy out of my hands, they are gonna want proof.

What I find interesting is that both arguments are not complete theories. They are both ever evolving and growing into something else or towards a single point. We all know that science continues to re write itself and branch off into new segmented fields of study, and religious institutions schism and are created just alike. kcmochris: said something very important and that was about instead of religion, we should focus our mystical connection to something bigger than ourselves. IMO this is essentially all religion should amount to if it is around and that's to bring people into focus on theirselves instead of preaching about an external God and Christ that you have to get to come to you.

No. God and creationism is not a theory. A theory has to have the ability to be tested.
Can creation not be tested?




No. I don't see how one can scientifically test if and how God created this universe.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Originally Posted by torgriffith

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

torgriffith wrote:

---

proper english wrote:

---

i am an Atheist..  i have my reasons..




but i cant help to think that alot of you non-god believers do it to feel "holier-than-thou" (

).. constantly coming up with the same "I live a better/enlightened life because of what I DONT believe in..etc etc,, yada yada yada" shtick every time a religion thread pops-up. calm down already.. you guys are just as bad as the religious heads trying force feed us w/ their beliefs on here. 

Yep
What's funny is that scientist are using scientific method to study both athiest vs. religion debates such as these. 

 Ya'll both arms on the same body of ( I don't know). Just one side admits it, while the other side proclaims a truth. Both polar opposites of the same ideology. 

   I'm tryna separate this whole science vs. religion "debate". I use science first and foremost for practical reasons and admit that science does NOT have all the answers but they're are perpetually looking. Religious people are in here tryna front like their entire lives aren't affected in one way or another by "science". 


When it comes to the unknown, there are somethings science cannot prove. The difference between myself (strict agnostic) and a religious person is I don't make absolute statements about the unknown. I don't claim to know where I go when I die. I don't make attempts to describe a holy, higher-being I have never witnessed.

I don't know what happens when we die. I don't know/can't know if there is a God. I treat the scriptures in organized religion like I treat all other things fiction, but I still contemplate existence.


Even religious people use science to call ducktales on the unbelievable....just as long their own religion is left alone. If I told a religious person that I'm supersaiyan and can shoot bolts of energy out of my hands, they are gonna want proof.

What I find interesting is that both arguments are not complete theories. They are both ever evolving and growing into something else or towards a single point. We all know that science continues to re write itself and branch off into new segmented fields of study, and religious institutions schism and are created just alike. kcmochris: said something very important and that was about instead of religion, we should focus our mystical connection to something bigger than ourselves. IMO this is essentially all religion should amount to if it is around and that's to bring people into focus on theirselves instead of preaching about an external God and Christ that you have to get to come to you.

No. God and creationism is not a theory. A theory has to have the ability to be tested.
Can creation not be tested?




No. I don't see how one can scientifically test if and how God created this universe.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by Master Zik

Originally Posted by red mpls

The irony of the constant barrage of threads like this is that those making them seem just as, if not more, obsessed with religion and God than the so-called religious fanatics... and are convinced that your point of view is the correct one just as much as the staunchest of believers... and attempt to force your beliefs on others just as much as those you mock and insult.

The religious had a couple hundred years head start and then like a 8 century movement. Those that subscribe to the opposite have only recently increased.

And your response is relevant... how?  Your response is not even accurate and really has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of the actions of some non-believers (which I described in my post).

Originally Posted by ShaunHillFTW49

And

it also  happens  the other  way around, too. Many atheists have

suppressed peoples freedom to be religious  outside the US. Priests

were  executed by the government in Mexico.  For a long time   china

didn't allow people to be openly religious. Religious people in  the

USSR  had it much worse  than non-believers in America.

And OP's response is.....?  Or do you only care about such matters when it is the religious who are culpable and not the non-believers?

1. When religion calls for bigotry, are we not supposed to fight it? Posts like this make it more acceptable for closet atheists to come out. 5 years ago on NT, you wouldn't have ever seen this much religion topics on here.



2. Those atheists made atheism a state religion. Atheism doesn't call for the execution of people. Religion does.

When did I state that we should not fight bigotry from religious people?  Where are you getting this from?  And

at you justifying the number of religion-bashing threads with concern for "closet atheists" and letting them know it's OK to be an anonymous, faceless atheist on Niketalk.

As for your other "point," you are clearly refusing to deal with reality.  I thought that's what you and so many other atheists, agnostics, etc. prided yourselves so much on.  You don't have a real argument so you just say, "Well, those people turned atheism into a religion and that's why it was so bad... so it's really religion's fault again."

1. Not just bigotry from religious people, but the Bible and religion calls for bigotry itself. What I'm trying to say is that constantly bashing religion is perfectly fine with me since religion promotes things like bigotry. Constantly propagating religions that teach bigotry is wrong. Again, as more people continue to turn to atheism or agnosticism, others become more open with their attitudes against religion. This is something I want to see.

2. Am I supposed to defend atheists that murder people? You're right. I don't have an argument for that. They turned their government into a dictatorship. Am I supposed to defend that somehow? If people didn't follow their laws or spoke against the leader, they were persecuted. That sounds like a religion to me. If I'm mistaken, please clarify what reality you're talking about.

Atheism doesn't call for the execution of people. Religion does.

 

[its that dude]

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by Its That Dude

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by Master Zik

Originally Posted by red mpls

The irony of the constant barrage of threads like this is that those making them seem just as, if not more, obsessed with religion and God than the so-called religious fanatics... and are convinced that your point of view is the correct one just as much as the staunchest of believers... and attempt to force your beliefs on others just as much as those you mock and insult.

The religious had a couple hundred years head start and then like a 8 century movement. Those that subscribe to the opposite have only recently increased.

And your response is relevant... how?  Your response is not even accurate and really has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of the actions of some non-believers (which I described in my post).

Originally Posted by ShaunHillFTW49

And

it also  happens  the other  way around, too. Many atheists have

suppressed peoples freedom to be religious  outside the US. Priests

were  executed by the government in Mexico.  For a long time   china

didn't allow people to be openly religious. Religious people in  the

USSR  had it much worse  than non-believers in America.

And OP's response is.....?  Or do you only care about such matters when it is the religious who are culpable and not the non-believers?

1. When religion calls for bigotry, are we not supposed to fight it? Posts like this make it more acceptable for closet atheists to come out. 5 years ago on NT, you wouldn't have ever seen this much religion topics on here.



2. Those atheists made atheism a state religion. Atheism doesn't call for the execution of people. Religion does.

When did I state that we should not fight bigotry from religious people?  Where are you getting this from?  And

at you justifying the number of religion-bashing threads with concern for "closet atheists" and letting them know it's OK to be an anonymous, faceless atheist on Niketalk.

As for your other "point," you are clearly refusing to deal with reality.  I thought that's what you and so many other atheists, agnostics, etc. prided yourselves so much on.  You don't have a real argument so you just say, "Well, those people turned atheism into a religion and that's why it was so bad... so it's really religion's fault again."

1. Not just bigotry from religious people, but the Bible and religion calls for bigotry itself. What I'm trying to say is that constantly bashing religion is perfectly fine with me since religion promotes things like bigotry. Constantly propagating religions that teach bigotry is wrong. Again, as more people continue to turn to atheism or agnosticism, others become more open with their attitudes against religion. This is something I want to see.

2. Am I supposed to defend atheists that murder people? You're right. I don't have an argument for that. They turned their government into a dictatorship. Am I supposed to defend that somehow? If people didn't follow their laws or spoke against the leader, they were persecuted. That sounds like a religion to me. If I'm mistaken, please clarify what reality you're talking about.

Atheism doesn't call for the execution of people. Religion does.

 

[equality]

Originally Posted by Nat Turner

Originally Posted by judeezy36

Originally Posted by Nat Turner

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by ai3mac1

I gotta question for the religious folk...

Say one day religion and a higher being were PROVEN to be false. As in its a FACT that its not real, its accepted that its not true.
What would you do then??

Would never happen, though.

Why?

Until someone comes up with answers for the beginning and the end..... 

So until then, you'd be happy thinking that the world is flat as well? This is why I take issue with the religious position. It is based upon superstition, then not fact.

Fact: Until you prove that "god" exists, there'll be no need to disprove his socalled existence. The burden of proof is actually on those of you who believe, not those of us who do not.
  

That's why I posed it as a "What if" question. 
I'm just curious to see people's responses.

IF it did happen, would you guys still continue your religious lifestyle? 

 

[equality]

Originally Posted by Nat Turner

Originally Posted by judeezy36

Originally Posted by Nat Turner

Originally Posted by PH3N0M3N0N

Originally Posted by ai3mac1

I gotta question for the religious folk...

Say one day religion and a higher being were PROVEN to be false. As in its a FACT that its not real, its accepted that its not true.
What would you do then??

Would never happen, though.

Why?

Until someone comes up with answers for the beginning and the end..... 

So until then, you'd be happy thinking that the world is flat as well? This is why I take issue with the religious position. It is based upon superstition, then not fact.

Fact: Until you prove that "god" exists, there'll be no need to disprove his socalled existence. The burden of proof is actually on those of you who believe, not those of us who do not.
  

That's why I posed it as a "What if" question. 
I'm just curious to see people's responses.

IF it did happen, would you guys still continue your religious lifestyle? 

 

[nat turner]

Originally Posted by south sole

When my Uncle was young he moved to Guatemala.  Guatemala is notorious for witchcraft, natives living there claim they see "spirits" of all sorts hovering around at night. Some of this paranormal entities include leprechauns (

)  and weeping widows ( here is the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona they appear  wearing a white gown as described by numerous witnesses who were petrified for being in close proximity; face to face. Anyway, my Uncle used to run off and go fraternize with this warlocks late at night whom were stationed in the highlands.  In doing so, that night he return back home completely psychologically hexed.  He said they dared him to drink water that has been tampered with. Doctors claimed is just another schizophrenic disorder. But I refuse to believe that, how does that happen overnight?  
He ain't been the same since... 

Now, is this works of EVIL for those who don't believe in it?   

Ask him if he's ever seen Big Foot.
  

 

[nat turner]

Originally Posted by south sole

When my Uncle was young he moved to Guatemala.  Guatemala is notorious for witchcraft, natives living there claim they see "spirits" of all sorts hovering around at night. Some of this paranormal entities include leprechauns (

)  and weeping widows ( here is the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona they appear  wearing a white gown as described by numerous witnesses who were petrified for being in close proximity; face to face. Anyway, my Uncle used to run off and go fraternize with this warlocks late at night whom were stationed in the highlands.  In doing so, that night he return back home completely psychologically hexed.  He said they dared him to drink water that has been tampered with. Doctors claimed is just another schizophrenic disorder. But I refuse to believe that, how does that happen overnight?  
He ain't been the same since... 

Now, is this works of EVIL for those who don't believe in it?   

Ask him if he's ever seen Big Foot.
  

 

[airjzz]

Yunno, I don't mind people downplaying religion or questioning its origins or even denying man-made organized religions as fact. After all, religion is all theology..it's all theoretical and you choose to believe based on whatever faith you are. I myself question all religions just as I think most competent 21st century human beings should.

However, to not believe in a higher power at ALL completely behooves me as to what makes you think you are so arrogant as to believe that this planet, and our existence was completely a shot in the dark.

Some of the non-believers like to look at only FACTS which is understandable. So I say to you look at the facts of how our planet works, how the placement of the other planets and the moon around Earth works, hell almost anything science related period. Some of you don't understand how perfect our surroundings are for sustaining life, and being off by just a bit, would make earth uninhabitable for humans.

If you can't simply take a walk outside, feel the cool breeze, warm sun, see birds and bugs of all shapes,sizes, and colors. Hell turn to National Geographic and watch Lions in Africa, or 100 ft Blue Whales (all of which play a very important part to our ecosystem) and not understand this is apart of some grand creation/scheme with an owner whom has a very creative personality....then I have to question your ability to draw conclusions from facts that surround you.

 

[airjzz]

Yunno, I don't mind people downplaying religion or questioning its origins or even denying man-made organized religions as fact. After all, religion is all theology..it's all theoretical and you choose to believe based on whatever faith you are. I myself question all religions just as I think most competent 21st century human beings should.

However, to not believe in a higher power at ALL completely behooves me as to what makes you think you are so arrogant as to believe that this planet, and our existence was completely a shot in the dark.

Some of the non-believers like to look at only FACTS which is understandable. So I say to you look at the facts of how our planet works, how the placement of the other planets and the moon around Earth works, hell almost anything science related period. Some of you don't understand how perfect our surroundings are for sustaining life, and being off by just a bit, would make earth uninhabitable for humans.

If you can't simply take a walk outside, feel the cool breeze, warm sun, see birds and bugs of all shapes,sizes, and colors. Hell turn to National Geographic and watch Lions in Africa, or 100 ft Blue Whales (all of which play a very important part to our ecosystem) and not understand this is apart of some grand creation/scheme with an owner whom has a very creative personality....then I have to question your ability to draw conclusions from facts that surround you.

 

[airjzz]

yuku'd.

 

[airjzz]

yuku'd.