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It's not like CW is the only movie where someone infiltrated an organization by pretending to be someone else before. Former hydra agent. That's like the least someone should complain about.

Its really as easy as hacking the system and putting in a different face.
 
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amel223 said:
It's not like CW is the only movie where someone infiltrated an organization by pretending to be someone else before. Former hydra agent. That's like the least someone should complain about.

Its really as easy as hacking the system and putting in a different face.
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1. But it may have been the only movie to have done it so stupidly

2. Zemo was never Hydra

3. "Hacking the system and putting in a different face" is a flimsy excuse for an avoidable plothole

4. You can't "hack" the human eyes who were all watching him interview Bucky. Again, NOBODY knew what the real guy looked like? It's all good. Bucky only blew up the UN and killed a sovereign monarch. Let's not make sure the cat who interviews him is properly credentialed and identified. Nobody looked at Zemo walk in and pulled up a pic of the actual doctor? Like wait, son don't look like this? Cmon son

5. The villain is shown to be in posession of the face-changing masks so the entire scene and this exchange of posts is even more silly
 
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'Nobody looked at Zemo and pulled up a pic of the actual doctor'

Like I said, it's as easy as hacking the system and putting the picture in. If someone were to 'pull up his pic' it'd be via the computer system.

Yea, you're right. He was a never hydra but he was still ex sokovian intelligence (or military). He was skilled enough to track down a hydra agent on the run so of course he'd be skilled enough to hack a computer.
 
amel223 said:
'Nobody looked at Zemo and pulled up a pic of the actual doctor'

Like I said, it's as easy as hacking the system and putting the picture in. If someone were to 'pull up his pic' it'd be via the computer system.

Yea, you're right. He was a never hydra but he was still ex sokovian intelligence (or military). He was skilled enough to track down a hydra agent on the run so of course he'd be skilled enough to hack a computer.
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Your entire argument hinges on the idea that nobody knew what this important psychologist looked like right up until Zemo got to Bucky. :lol:
 
It's highly plausible.

He's a psychologist. I mean, unless the security guard checking ids on the computer has a degree in psychology... :lol:

It's not that NOBODY knows what he looks like. It's just that the people checking the computer on that day or whoever ran into him on that day didn't. And he slipped through the cracks.
 
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Kind of an important thing to slip through the cracks :lol:

But yeah I got my own idea of how I could have incorporated a non-physical, death-of-family-motivated Zemo into the plot of CW, the eternal Tony/Cap conflict, and the political climate of the MCU at the time

Will type it up when I get to the crib
 
Stuff like that happens

Just a year ago a racist cop arrested his own local congressman thinking he was a random black guy

Jeremy Lin sometimes can't get into his own building without an ID because the security guard working that day didn't know who he was

:lol:

So on so on

Point is, sometimes all it takes for something to slip the cracks is a weak link. And then after ish hits the fan ppl point fingers at that weak link
 
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Aight I'm putting this in spoiler tags because it is LONG AS HELL...
I'm gonna make the same assumption that the Russos probably did when they decided to use Zemo in CW: That nobody really cares about the "classic", purple mask Zemo. It's a fair assumption. I certainly don't care about him or any of Cap's supporting cast really. But it's a law of nature that good writing = characters you care about, regardless of source material. TWS is the shining example of this very fact.

Now let's break down this 2016 Zemo into the key components of his character and relate them to the current political and narrative climate of the MCU, and also relate them to one of the central characters of the movie:

Sokovian: Speaks for itself. Hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands of people should have died in Sokovia (I don't believe whatever number they actually put in CW). He's already established as having some connection to the events of the previous big team-up movie wherein which a city is completely destroyed. Having the villain be Sokovian in the Marvel movie where the Avengers fight each other is a no-brainer. Nobody cares about Zemo not being a German nobleman or whatever.

His family died during the events of AoU: Another no-brainer and the logical course of thought following the revelation that he's Sokovian. Externally, this also creates kind of a meta-reimagining of the events of AoU (which many criticized for being too light-hearted). So in grief, Zemo blames not the killer robot for plunging Sokovia into ruin, but the organization that spawned the killer robot.

He's not strong enough to fight or challenge the Avengers toe-to-toe, but is driven, intelligent, connected, and ruthless: another beautiful character snapshot. I feel like the idea villain who simply trades blows with or is an evil version of the hero (Zod, Doomsday, Reverse-Flash, Venom Ultron, probably Thanos in IW) has become blasé. The best villains are those who have none of the gifts of the protagonists but still manage to menace our heroes with frightening levels of ease and competency (The Joker, Lex Luthor, hell even Green Goblin does this and it's glorious).

Now, interestingly, and this gets into the debate that has dominated this thread for months, this puts our friend Zemo not at odds with Cap, his traditional archnemesis, but IRON MAN. ZEMO IN CW IS IRON MAN'S VILLAIN (or should be considered as such). And it is brilliant writing to have this adversarial relationship dominate the plot.

Let's explore that.

Tony Stark blames himself for Sokovia. But has it been made public that HE created Ultron? Do people know this? I think logically, this should eventually become public knowledge--one of Stark's experiments went awry and an evil robot murdered half a country.

Zemo's motivation as a villain, to me, hinges on that very fact being known to the public. It creates a rational foundation that allows him to justify his irrational desire for revenge.

So the first thing that I would change? Have Tony depicted in the beginning of CW as dealing with the fallout of this information leaking to the world in previous months. STARK  (and by proxy the Avengers) SHOULD BE SEEN BY SOME (many) AS BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SOKOVIA TRAGEDY. Zemo plans to capitalize on this very fact.

Back to Zemo. It's clear that he is aware of or assumes that Bucky Barnes murdered the Starks before he gets his mission report. Let's establish Zemo as having had this knowledge for months.

All of these things make IM the focal point of Zemo's machinations.

We'll come back to IM but I want to touch on the political climate of the MCU

IIRC, the Sokovia Accords didn't really come into play until after SW accidentally killed the Wakandans in Lagos? Let's have this still happen, sure, but let's establish that these Accords are already in talks and various governments have agreed to ratify the legislation, but dates and locations are uncertain. Tony himself is already in contact with Thunderbolt Ross and makes it known he is down for whatever. The Lagos incident only serves to hasten the drafting and signing of the Accords, which allows Zemo, sorely in need of a big happening, to kickstart his plan.

Back to IM: Tony Stark is a worldwide celebrity--the kind of celebrity that does not exist in our real world. In IM 3 and AoU he is proven to struggle with PTSD, depression, and anxiety attacks. I believe that Tony at one point freaks out in public in IM3, which undoubtedly made it onto YouTube.

Since Zemo is apparently really good at imitating psychologists, let's assume that he has formulated a scarily precise psychological profile of Tony Stark and is aware of his neuroses, his fears, and his defining motivations. Zemo should know that Tony is a walking guilt trip. Zemo knows that Tony had daddy issues that were unresolved before his parents were murdered. Zemo knows that Tony had a harrowing brush with death in Afghanistan that created the Iron Man and resulted in a complete overhaul of Stark Industries' main selling point.

Zemo knows that Iron Man (and by proxy the Avengers as we know them) are the result of succession of unfortunate happenings that a guilty, paranoid, and traumatized billionaire cannot process internally (and this is what makes MCU IM a fantastic character btw).

Conversely, Black Widow has leaked all SHIELD/HYDRA files onto the Web, right? Let us assume that he has created an equally comprehensive understanding of Cap's character traits.

And he comes to this conclusion:

Tony Stark is, like I said, paranoid, guilty, and neurotic. He is a man of irrational fear wrapped up in an iron suit of cold logic and pragmatism.

Steve Rogers is emotionally stubborn (like the Honest Trailers said), uncompromising, loyal to a fault, does not jive with established authority or oversight, and is a hopeless optimist.

Both are established leaders of the Avengers. Naturally, they have come to odds in the past and can be prompted to do so again, this time irreparably.

So he picks up his tools (the knowledge that Bucky killed the Starks, IM's public support of the Accords, the premise that Cap will undoubtedly oppose them, the yet unknown whereabouts of Bucky Barnes), and gets to work.

Now I'm gonna backtrack for a second. Remember the lady who confronted Tony at MIT about her dead son who was in Sokovia? There should be more of her; more people who lost loved ones while the Avengers were kicking ***. And not just Sokovia. Washington, DC. New York. Harlem (IH was in Harlem right?). ETC. Again, this hinges on the idea that the numbers of dead shown by Ross is BS, and we're throwing them away. Logically I would assume that many more people died in the final battles of these movies.

Let's take it a step further. So there are more of these grievers or people who have been otherwise directly affected by the Avengers' battles. Why not support groups?

Why not the biggest such "support group" headed by Helmut Zemo, alleged master manipulator and alleged psychologist impersonator, and actual victim of the Battle of Sokovia?

It's a simple thing, but I feel like it does a lot: let's change that one lady who confronted Stark in MIT to a gaggle of folks confronting him at MIT. This happens after Lagos, and the Accords are definitely going to be signed in the near future.  And instead of angrily blaming him, they say "please, Tony. Sign these Accords. For my son. For my husband. For my daughter. For my wife. For my man-slave. For my dog. For my fish. For my ugly side chick who threw me the mouf whenever I wanted. Make sure these Accords go through. Make sure the Avengers are reeled in. No matter what."

They all give him a picture of their loved ones. Zemo tells them they've done a brave thing by confronting the catalyst of their families' deaths. Then he just bounces. Mission accomplished. Tony is Team Accords 4 Lyfe.

This creates a hands-on aspect that allows the villain's machinations to directly influence the hero's motivations, and it isn't done through violence or conflict. It's an emotional through line that allows Tony to take the next logical leap in his characterization.

So the UN and the Accords. Pretty smart to have him blow it up and frame Bucky. My thing is that if this bombing killed the wrong people, his plan is effectively ruined. He doesn't want to kill the Avengers through violence, he wants to introduce the metastatic element of irreconcilable conflict so no Avengers can ever rise again. So dude is special forces or whatever, right? Son snipes out T'Chaka and maybe sets off a smaller bomb, but a bomb nonetheless. Still allows himself to be seen as "Bucky", planting the bomb.

Bucky is the most wanted man in the world still. But I would change something in order to solidify Cap's desire to go behind the backs of Ross and Stark to independently apprehend Bucky, and simultaneously create that rift.

"Zemo" takes responsibility as Bucky's handler. Not MCU Zemo. Just a dude in a stupid purple mask who releases a video to the public about how he represent the rebirth of Hydra and has reprogrammed the WS to do his bidding. Doesn't have to be a purple mask, but it is certainly anonymous and it'd be a nice little nod to the people who actually cared or wanted to see that. He claims that he is poised to resurrect HYDRA within the U.S Government, which is an obvious lie. Ross and Tony do not believe this to be possible but are trying to bring Bucky in at all costs.

As an aside, and going off of that fact, I would make the change in the script that Bucky is desired to be taken alive as opposed to shoot on sight--since someone has already taken credit for his brainwashing, I would assume that the counter-terrorist initiative would want him alive in order to prep him for psycho evaluation and potential debriefing.

Steve doesn't trust the Accords because he doesn't believe in that level of oversight, right? Now it's tenfold because this masked terrorist has claimed to have resurrected HYDRA within the US. Tony, adamant in his conviction due to the what happened at MIT, says "HYDRA's dead, b", and Ross tries to assure Rogers that all US internal organizations have been severely audited since the events of TWS and this masked dude is simply crazy and using Bucky to commit murder. Steve doesn't buy it, being emotionally stubborn and distrusting of big government. Plus, a "brainwashed" Bucky saved his life. Bucky must have been framed, in his mind.

So he goes out to grab Bucky. He's not brainwashed or otherwise crazy--yep, he was framed! But the 5-0 still show up. The big chase still happens, yadda yadda. Steve and Falcon and BP are arrested.

Zemo sees that the Winter Soldier has been apprehended and awaits psychological evaluation in order to assess the threat of the alleged Hydra resurrection. Keikaku Doori.

Zemo comes in to interview Bucky again, BUT FOR THE LOVE OF **** HE USES THE FAKE FACE THING TO PROPERLY DISGUISE HIMSELF. THAT WAS SO DUMB. He unleashes TWS, orders him to fight and escape to the facility in Siberia where the other soldiers are being held, where he will await further orders. He maybe installs a "sleeper" order that programs Bucky to allow himself to be captured by Cap under certain circumstances, because if he' s captured by Tony or Team IM, the plan fails. He's defeated and taken into hiding by Cap.

Because Bucky has flipped out for what appears to be the second time, Cap knows that Tony and Ross will not listen to anything he has to say. They resolve to take matters into their own hands, defeat the other Winter Soldiers, and deal with the consequences later. Just like in the actual movie.

This is what causes the airport scene, right? Well, the way I see this going it potentially omits such a scene from occurring because there are too many variables that would allow Zemo's plan to fail--because he wants ONLY Cap, Bucky and IM to show up in Siberia. But we gotta have the airport scene, right? That's why big movies are written by teams of people
tongue.gif
. This is my way of ensuring that only these three make it to the facility. And I guess BP follows them because he's smart and sneaky.

So in the movie, Zemo kills the real psychologist, and FRIDAY tells Tony this and then goes "Oh **** Bucky was framed!" I wouldn't go that route.

To continue, I'm gonna make another change to the overall plot--that little mini arc of Zemo trying to find the mission report and mission footage is either condensed or scrapped. Let's say he successfully coaxes the report out of the HYDRA guy he met and even gets the footage.

Zemo, alleged technology expert, sends a very brief but very telling snippet of this footage to a Stark Industries inbox or something, prefaced by a cryptic message from the purple masked feller. It either goes public or FRIDAY discovers it and shows it to Tony.

Tony's like "wait, that's bucky....this video is from 1991, but why--WTF YO THAT'S MY PARENT'S CAR!" the video cuts off before anything else can be discerned. Purple masked feller says some more cryptic **** about how Tony is never able to confront the truth, how he can never be forgiven for his foolishness, playing on his neuroses. Tony has an anxiety attack. There's something that he doesn't know, and it's something he SHOULD.

Zemo has completed the emotional circle he has manufactured for Iron Man. He goes crazy, obsessively needs to see more. Alongside the video is some crazy code that can only be broken by FRIDAY and/or Tony. Tony breaks the code and voila--the coordinates for the Siberian facility. Now he HAS to go there, to see what else is happening.

Again, how would Tony, Bucky and Cap be the only ones at the facility--and there at the same time? That's the main problem with Zemo's plan in my opinion. If the airport scene had gone ANY differently, there might have been Clint or SW or Ant-Man or Sam or all of Team Cap there together.

**** it. We still get an airport scene. Team Cap still loses to the more powerful Team IM. Maybe like Sam or Clint or somebody get to escape with Cap. The others are arrested. No prison in the middle of the ocean, tho. I'll get into why in a second. Another prison on land.

Another change: Zemo does NOT kill the Winter Soldiers. Another another change: Zemo IS able to control the Winter Soldiers. They are obedient just like Bucky is. Just more powerful and dangerous.

So here we go: Cap and Bucky (and for the sake of realism maybe one or two other members of Team Cap) make it to Siberia. They are immediately attacked by the Winter Soldiers. Since they are so badass, they seem to maintain the upper hand for a bit. But out heroes manage to overcome. Zemo orders his Winter Soldiers to use nerve gas or toxin to incapacitate the Cap and Bucky (and whoever else). They are restrained (this facility is meant to be able to hold Bucky, no?) and Zemo awaits the inevitable arrival of Iron Man.

Tony does not tell the Avengers about Siberia. HE comes alone, or endeavors to come alone--because he's being followed by BP. He is an emotional wreck. Bucky, his parents car, the year 1991, and Zemo's destructive words have done a number on his psyche. He is not in a rational state.

Zemo notes that Stark will arrive shortly. He releases Cap and Bucky. Orders his Winter Soldiers to place their weapons in their mouths and shoot themselves. Remember that Zemo wants to prevent any Avengers from showing up ever again and then commit suicide.

Iron Man shows up. Meets with Cap and Bucky. Cap explains what has happened. He is unsure why the supersoldiers would kill themselves. Tony is upset but glad to see that Cap is okay after what appears to be a harrowing battle.

"You think I wanted more of you?" the same Zemo speech. "I know why you've come, Stark."

Teases the video. Tony flips out again. Cap begins to understand what has happened and begs that Tony calm down. Tony is raving. He demands to see the video.

Sees it.

"Did you know?"

Cap says yes. Tony and Stark and Bucky shoot the fade. If there was one or more members of Team Cap there, IM (who is not playing around this time) knocks them out with the quickness. Zemo escapes. BP, lurkin in the shadows, notes that the apprehension of the villain is important--as opposed to stopping the fight, he silently gives chase.

They have their little convo and BP prevents Zemo from killing himself.

Now, no matter what happens, Tony and Cap are irretrievably lost to this rift. At least in my eyes. The events of the movie, MIT, the Sokovia Accords, Tony's fathomless guilt over the death he believes to have caused. The man has suffered a complete emotional collapse.

And above all, he has been betrayed by his best friend--who he has spent the entire movie trying to protect (in his own way, through the Accords).

The fight is over. But now, this goes back to why I'd omit the Raft prison.

Cap doesn't win this fight. He loses. Bucky still loses his arm. Tony is about to kill him but Cap takes the hit and simultaneously disables the ARC Reactor with the shield. Cap is tougher than Bucky, so it's not fatal, but it conclusively ends the fight. He tells Bucky to leave, to run away somehow. Tony cannot pursue. He still gives Cap the same speech about the shield, verbally lays into him about other things, spilling his guts about his fears, his anxiety, the betrayal. He brings to the forefront the severe philosophical difference between the two that the MCU has foreshadowed for years.

And somehow, it helps. It's therapeutic. He's still pissed. He's no longer Steves' bro. But he's no longer ranting and raving. He cries, or looks about to cry. Steve looks heartbroken. The letter that Cap sent to Tony in the movie? He says it to his face. Which is a braver thing to do in the first place, and more of a Captain America thing to do.

Stark does not respond, but you can tell that something in him gives a little bit. He calls Ross and his forces. Says that Bucky cannot escape with his mangled arm. He will be apprehended.

Or nah. Because BP takes Bucky away to Wakanda, having shed his hatred. Zemo is left unconscious to be discovered by authorities.

Cap and whoever else is around with him are arrested. Tony takes back the shield his father created.

Brief timeskip.  A clearly emotionally numb Tony is at the Avengers facility, maybe playing video games or doing some kind of other nonsense activity, and receives a call about a break in at the prison where Team Cap is being held. It's Bucky and BP breaking everyone out. Let's say that BP is so fly with it that he escapes any culpability. Bucky is still a beast with the hands with one arm. Or maybe they gave him a new one in Wakanda. I think that would be cool.

Tony thinks long and hard--he doesn't just immediately place him on hold like in the movie, which to me indicated that Zemo's plan wasn't nearly as effective as it should have been. He's conflicted about doing this. He's thinking back to what Cap told him. Maybe this is where the audience hears Cap's speech in Siberia via flashback. Eventually tells Ross he will scramble the remaining Avengers and move to intercept ASAP. They hang up.

He gets up to call the team--and then looks at the object hanging from the wall. It's the shield his father created. It's Cap's shield. 

He considers it for a moment.

He goes back to the couch and resumes his video game.

Team Cap escapes.

Bucky has saved Steves' *** once again. Status quo as usual.

Same post-credit scenes where Bucky goes back in the ice, where Spidey gets the Spider-Signal working.

I made the ending like that because I wanted it to seem like the rift was deeper than it was in the actual movie. It felt like Cap and Tony would kiss and make up as soon as they saw each other again, which is another bad mark on Zemo's villainy.

It's on IM to forgive Cap in the MCU. So I wanted it to be more of a struggle for him to reach that inevitable forgiveness.

Oh, almost forgot Zemo. IDK I feel like he was pretty much satisfied with what happened in CW and he would also be here. So there's no further purpose to his character. Unless there's a third stinger wherein which he's broken out by the precursors of the Masters of Evil or something like that.
I mean this is just what I came up with on the fly, but my point is that there was probably a better way for Zemo to effectively play the role that he did in CW and in the MCU moving forward. I'm glad they didn't kill him tho.

Keep in mind I only wrote this because son called my bluff
laugh.gif

Mr Cashfl0w said:
So let's hear said streamlined plan that would offer better viewer satisfaction
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^From what I read I'm not digging BP helping Steve break them out and then just not facing consequences. That's bull ****.

Also for story pacing reasons, teasing some of the video of what happened to Tony's family to him completely ruins the reveal. When the viewer gets clips of it we just know they're in the car, we see a crash, we see a motorcycle. We don't know it's the WS killing the Starks until that 3rd act.

amel223 said:
We went over this literally the day after cw released. His plan was perfectly fine.
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Dudes have very short memories.
 
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Master Zik said:
^From what I read I'm not digging BP helping Steve break them out and then just not facing consequences. That's bull ****.

Also for story pacing reasons, teasing some of the video of what happened to Tony's family to him completely ruins the reveal. When the viewer gets clips of it we just know they're in the car, we see a crash, we see a motorcycle. We don't know it's the WS killing the Starks until that 3rd act.
 
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Then fine; the Wakandans outfit Bucky with a new arm and he breaks them out dolo. BP in canon is already harboring several fugitives. So as a UN-recognized sovereign leader, he cannot publicly cosign or participate in the breakout but he secretly provides Bucky with the tools needed to liberate them and eventually return to Wakanda where they will be harbored. Barnes should be more than capable of this based on his showings in TWS; too bad CW kind of nerfed the hell out of him. And once heavy-hitters like Steve and Wanda are freed it's a cakewalk.

It allows for the same post-credits scene with the "let them try" speech and the world still unaware that Cap and company are in Wakanda.

And the video tease can incorporate exactly what the viewer sees in those teasing images then, no picture of the WS needed.The idea of there being footage of his family's death and more to the story than he realizes would do enough to motivate Tony to take action, regardless of if he thought that it had anything to do with Bucky. Remember, this is my fan-fiction villain Zemo who claims to the public that he is responsible for the UN attacks in the first place--in Tony's mind, why exactly would he have footage of the Stark accident? What does this have to do with this alleged HYDRA resurrection or the recent mayhem caused by Bucky? He would have to see this through, and see it through alone. Then the audience still gets its reveal and the explanation of why Zemo would want Tony there in the first place.

It was already established that Hydra killed the Starks in TWS, so that conclusion would be drawn by the viewer anyway. If you want to save the "it was actually Bucky" reveal to the end, it still works.
 
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What exactly is wrong with Steve breaking them out by himself? Why does that have to change?

Making it Bucky is worse given its on record he still has the programming in him.

It being canon that BP is harboring Bucky is irrelevant. Nobody knows that but Steve and Wakandans.

As for drawing conclusions, that's speculation before being shown not confirmation. Plus you just ignored what I said about pacing and the reveal being ruined. If you just straight up show him there and the Starks about to die it leaves no mystery and takes away emotional impact for Tony and the conflict with Steve. Tony needs to have no clue about what he's going to see while Steve stands there in silence knowing what happened.

I don't see how these things make the movie better. They just seem to be changes for changes sake.
 
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I do like the change made with Tony hesitating and thinking a bit longer in terms of whether to go after Cap or not when he hears about the breakout at the Raft.
 
Master Zik said:
What exactly is wrong with Steve breaking them out by himself? Why does that have change?

Making it Bucky is worse given its on record he still has the programming in him.

It being canon that BP is harboring Bucky is irrelevant. Nobody knows that but Steve and Wakandans.

As for drawing conclusions, that's speculation before being shown not confirmation. Plus you just ignored what I said about pacing and the reveal being ruined. If you just straight up show him there and the Starks about to die it leaves no mystery and takes away emotional impact for Tony and the conflict with Steve. Tony needs to have no clue about what he's going to see while Steve stands there in silence knowing what happened.

I don't see how these things make the movie better. They just seem to be changes for changes sake.
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I wasn't ignoring anything. I was agreeing with you :lol: both about BP not actively participating in the breakout and saving WS' reveal in the Stark video till the end. I was just making the point that viewers are probably aware of Bucky's culpability and that it's not a stretch to assume that Wakandans could lend a discreet hand in a potential Cap breakout.

The idea is that Tony is drawn to Siberia where Cap and WS are being detained not because he knows what's going on, because he DOESN'T. He's confused and emotionally distraught because this random terrorist has footage of the Stark car accident and has struck a nerve emotionally with his words. Stark is proven to be vulnerable to that. Again, no images of Bucky needed.

The reason I write Bucky breaking them out is to allow Cap and IM to have that final, emotional conversation in Siberia alone as Bucky escapes and then is extracted by BP. And it's also a callback to Bucky constantly saving Steve's ***. Nothing wrong with how Steve broke them out; it's just how I'd write it


Jays25 said:
I do like the change made with Tony hesitating and thinking a bit longer in terms of whether to go after Cap or not when he hears about the breakout at the Raft.
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Yeah there should have been a moment of uncertainty for the audience here instead of "yeah ok he's gonna put Ross on hold"


amel223 said:
I stopped reading halfway through when I realized he was just making it an IM movie. :lol:
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So you gonna pretend that the plot of CW doesn't depend on Tony's character development for the past 10 years being deconstructed and reconstructed as opposed to that of a hollow anti-character like Captain America?

Remember that TWS and CW are great in SPITE of Rogers, not BECAUSE of him.

#teamIM
 
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amel223 said:
Hollow anti character?

If I was by a computer, I'd gif you to bolivia
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He is right there.

Its why I give the Russo bros props. If you can make Cap or Superman stories engaging you're pretty great.

The next challenge is making them interesting but it's pretty much too late to do that to them now without receiving backlash about how you're ruining the character or don't understand them.
 
Yeah, lets put all our cards on the table here. Neither Superman or Captain America are the most interesting superheroes. Like really be honest with yourself about this (For example, Richard Grayson/Nightwing is one of my favorite DC comics characters, but i'm not going to argue that he isn't redundant whenever Batman's around). Even if you like those two heroes, they're not the most interesting heroes. No crowds are waiting in comic shops talking about "Oh, I can't wait for the new Captain America collection to come out". Superman in turn is so powerful, so ******* perfect most of the time that many writers can't even come up with credible threats for him. They just had to go through a massive event where he was running around at less than half his strength to make things even for everyone else.That's why series like have to rely on that "Hail Hydra" nonsense to really get people paying attention to it. That's also why whenever you get a story with one of them that is truly beyond your expectations, off the wall good

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it stands out so much. Because stories like that for them are rare. Whereas someone like Batman has too many good stories to even get started on.
 
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I feel like all you have to do to make Clark interesting is play up the journalist angle.

But real journalism tho. His pitches get shot down with the quickness during the weekly story scrums. He's in the office in his jeans until 8pm, trying desperately to crunch out a feature and file in time. His computer's acting up and he can't get anything done and it's pissing him off. Interns constantly bugging him (not that Clark is the type to be upset about that). Little things like that would make a huge difference.


Throw in some Kansas and you've got a complete character. And for heaven's sake, depict theman doing some got damn writing. You'd think these writers would understand that having their most powerful, popular, and enduring superhero be a writer himself offers a goldmine of potential introspection and dimensions to explore

But yeah that's why Spider-Man was so important when Stan Lee created him, because he had Superman's perfection in mind.

Cap is a little harder because he has no day job and comes from a Brooklyn that no longer exists. So the angle the Russos took with him is perfect. IDK if this is true to his comics characterization because I'm not familiar with Cap books
 
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I want a throwaway series of Superman to go the One-Man-Punch route.
(i know this is the MCU thread)
 
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