What would a player have to do to be considered greater than Jordan?

[bittersweet]

Originally Posted by 703FlipFiend

Originally Posted by bittersweet

I believe that aside from Jordan's basketball skill, your shoes also have to set markers and change footwear the way Jordans have.

And I ABSOLUTELY doubt that would EVER happen.

Shoes have ZERO to do with it.  How old are you?

You don't think that adds to his legacy? You don't think his shoes just ADDED to marketing him as a PLAYER?

Everyone feeling like they could fly? Ok.

 

[noblekane]

this thread is absolutely ******ed. Nobodys opinion is correct. Who said jordan is the standard to match? What about Wilt Chamberlain? DR J? Magic and Bird???

what about the young kid who never seen jordan play and all he knows is kobe or lebron???

Jordan may be the greatest player you and I have ever seen BUT he may not be to another generation.


If someone wants to say lebron or kobe are the goat thats their opinion.

Yet Jordan scrotum preservers get absolutely irrate and angry and roll their eyes and insult people on this board if they dont agree with their opinion.

So to your question of what would a player have to do to be considered greater than jordan? The answer is simple. Who said jordan is the bar to surpass?

 

[darthska]

Every time you post about Jordan slurpers getting mad or LeBron fans getting mad, I just love how you say it like you've never gotten mad over athletes before, whether it be people (like me) refusing to join you in bashing a certain player or refusing to side with your praise of a certain player.

And just the fact that you're resorting to calling Jordan supporters names like 'scrotum preservers' and whatever you said before, that just shows that you're bothered by someone else's opinion. Insults are one of the first signs of negative emotions.

So yeah, keep dogging people for being upset over other people refusing to side with their opinion... while you're also upset over people refusing to side with your opinion.

 

[703flipfiend]

Originally Posted by bittersweet

Originally Posted by 703FlipFiend

Originally Posted by bittersweet

I believe that aside from Jordan's basketball skill, your shoes also have to set markers and change footwear the way Jordans have.

And I ABSOLUTELY doubt that would EVER happen.

Shoes have ZERO to do with it.  How old are you?

You don't think that adds to his legacy? You don't think his shoes just ADDED to marketing him as a PLAYER?

Everyone feeling like they could fly? Ok.

Of course it adds to his legacy.  After reading the whole thread, the consensus is that we're talking about greatness relative to a player's accomplishments, stats, and skill.  Like I said, the shoes have ZERO to do with it.  We're not talking about how marketable a player can be or how great a player's legacy is.  Legacy is not quantifiable.  Do you understand that, Ms. Genius?

    

 

[downtown43]

Originally Posted by outacontrol music

LeBron is at least as good as Jordan. His stretch from opening day last year though right now, counting last year's playoffs, is as good as or better than Jordan ever played and there's no reason to expect it to end anytime soon. People want to use Jordan's MVPs and rings to exclude a comparison with LeBron, this is flawed.

It's reasonable to use accomplishments (stats, individual dominance, mvps, all nba teams, championships, finals mvps, etc.) to compare retired players. But it is extremely flawed to use those same criteria to evaluate active players. The accomplishments didn't make the players great, their greatness generated the accomplishments.

Jordan wasn't suddenly a better player on June 12th, 1991 than he was Feb 27, 1991. And he didn't become the best player ever sometime in the mid 1990s. The championships didn't make him the GOATBL (i.e. GOAT Before LeBron), his being the GOATBL helped bring the championships.

From 87-90, the debate for deciding MVP wasn't who was better, Michael, Bird or Magic, the debate was - is the MVP the best player in the league or is it the best player on the best team. Many people said then if the MVP simply went to the best player, Jordan would win it every year.

But using the way people want to evaluate greatness now, Jordan on Feb 27th, 1991 wouldn't even be allowed in the discussion. Jordan in 1994 was a retired player with 4 MVPs and 3 championships, 3 finals MVPs. He had then less career accomplishments than many of the immortal 6, yet nobody though it ludicrous that the statue at the united center was inscribed "The best there ever was. The best there ever will be." This was before the 72 win season, the second 3 peat and 2 more league MVPs, yet "the best there ever was" was widely accepted as truth.

Accomplishing those things didn't make Jordan great, his greatness allowed him to accomplish those things and others, such as best career PER ever, best career playoff PER ever, best single season PER ever (since all relevant stats were tracked). He also has the best scoring average ever by a slim margin, but the margin becomes more pronounced when you adjust for career pace (which is a large reason why the gap in PER is so pronounced).

If Jordan's all time greatness was so recognizable while it was happening, why is the view now that players can't be named in the same breath as Jordan until after they rack up 5 MVPs and 6 championships? Shouldn't' it be possible to recognize that a player is basically on the same career path with the same type of dominance?

did you write this? if not, who did?

MJ had a 7 YEAR stretch up until his first retirement that destroys what Lebron has done over the past 2 years only.

Lebron is not and never was on the trajectory to match MJ. Jordan averaged 28-6-6 his rookie year.

 

[Girl Thats Jules]

somebody said that kareem has the stats to match up to jordan



no.

he doesnt.


i have more than this.  heres just a sample.




this will show you how great jordan was.






most playoff games scoring 30 or more points

michael jordan - 109



most career playoff points -

michael jordan - 5,987

kareem abdul jabbar - 5,700



And keep in mind that :


total career playoff games

kareem abdul-jabbar - 237
michael jordan - 179



now on to some other stats





Most 50 point games in NBA history

Wilt Chamberlain-105
Michael Jordan-39
Kobe Bryant-24
Elgin Baylor-14
Rick Barry-13
Allen Iverson-11
Bernard King-8
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar-8
LeBron James-8
Dominique Wilkins-7



look at these next 4 stats.
you've got to go back to players who played in the 1960's to match MJ. He did all of this in the modern era. and alot of it in the 1990's,the greatest defensive era in nba history.





Highest Scoring Average in a Season

Wilt Chamberlain, Phi 50.4 1961-62
Wilt Chamberlain, SF 44.8 1962-63
Wilt Chamberlain, Phi 38.4 1960-61
Elgin Baylor, LA Lakers 38.3 1961-62
Wilt Chamberlain, Phi 37.6 1959-60
Michael Jordan, Chi 37.1 1986-87
Wilt Chamberlain, SF 36.9 1963-64
Rick Barry, SF 35.6 1966-67
Michael Jordan, Chi 35.0 1987-88
Elgin Baylor, LA Lakers 34.8 1960-61
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mil 34.8 1971-72



Most Points Season

Wilt Chamberlain, Phi 4029 1961-62
Wilt Chamberlain, SF 3586 1962-63
Michael Jordan, Chi 3041 1986-87
Wilt Chamberlain, Phi 3033 1960-61
Wilt Chamberlain, SF 2948 1963-64




Most Games, 40 or More Points (Season)

Wilt Chamberlain, Phila 63 1961-62
Wilt Chamberlain, SF 52 1962-63
Michael Jordan, Chicago 37 1986-87



Most Games, 40 or More Points (Career)

Player Games
Wilt Chamberlin 271
Michael Jordan 170
Elgin Baylor 87




Most Consecutive Games, 40 or More Points

Wilt Chamberlin 14 Dec 8-Dec 30, 1961, Jan 11-Feb 1, 1962
Wilt Chamberlin 10 Nov 9-Nov 25, 1962
Michael Jordan 9 Nov 28-Dec 12, 1986




Most Seasons Leading League in Scoring

Michael Jordan 10 1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98
Wilt Chamberlin 7 1959-60 to 1965-66
George Gervin 4 1977-78 to 1979-80, 1981-82





Most seasons leading league in total points

michael jordan - 11





Most seasons leading league in field goals made

michael jordan - 10






Most consecutive seasons leading league in field goals made

7 by Wilt Chamberlain (1959–60 to 1965–66)
7 by Michael Jordan (1986–87 to 1992–93)




Most Seasons 2,000 or More Points

Karl Malone 12 1987-88 to 1997-98, 1999-00
Michael Jordan 11 1984-85, 1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 9 1969-70 to 1973-74, 1975-76 to 1976-77, 199-80 to 1980-81





Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Scoring


Michael Jordan 7 1986-87 to 1992-93
Wilt Chamberlin 7 1959-60 to 1965-66
George Mikan 3 1948-49 to 1950-51
Neil Johnston 3 1952-53 to 1954-55
Bob McAdoo 3 1973-74 to 1975-76
George Gervin 3 1977-78 to 1979-80
Michael Jordan 3 1995-96 to 1997-98





most consecutive games 20 or more points

michael jordan - 35 (June 2, 1991-June 14, 199.







Most career 30+ point games
michael jordan - 563






most consecutive games in double figures

michael jordan - 804

kareem abdul-jabbar - 788









i posted all scoring stats but heres two defensive ones for you.



most steals career

1. John Stockton* 3265
2. Michael Jordan* 2514
3. Gary Payton 2445
4. Jason Kidd 2343
5. Maurice Cheeks 2310
6. Scottie Pippen* 2307
7. Julius Erving* 2272
8. Clyde Drexler* 2207
9. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2162
10. Alvin Robertson 2112





Most seasons leading league in steals
Michael Ray Richardson - 3
Alvin Robertson - 3
Michael Jordan - 3
Allen Iverson - 3










and just for good measure



Highest P.E.R.

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63




www.basketballreference.com

 

[baller23217]

Originally Posted by Carlos Tevez

LeBron is the only player capable of surpassing MJ but that'll probably never happen because MJ set the bar extremely high.

Kobe may end up with 5-6 rings but he was the 2nd option when he won his first 3-rings and had a tremendous amount of help in winning his 4th ring. Unfortunately for Kobe, a couple of his prime years were wasted as the Lakers were rebuilding after trading Shaq...those are 2 seasons no one will really remember because the Lakers were unable to succeed in the playoffs despite Kobe being a monster in those 2 years.

LeBron is still very young, puts up insane numbers, and is an absolutely dominant player. Get him the right supporting cast and he will a title contender for years to come. Just look at the NBA now...Cavs are 1st in the league thanks to LeBron (even though he's surrounded by a bunch of bums and has a terrible head coach, LeBron is able to elevate the team to 60+ wins). The Celtics and Spurs are on the decline and the Magic are pretenders. The only team that looks like they'll be in the title race for atleast another 2 seasons are the L.A. Lakers. So if LeBron plays his cards right in July, he can put himself in a very good situation to win multiple titles and perhaps come close to matching MJ's accomplishments.

LeBron can no longer match MJ's accomplishments for the same reason you said Kobe can't surpass MJ as GOAT.  For the next 6 years, any rings LeBron wins will come with the help of D Wade.

I don't want to hear Pippen's name come up either.  At the time the Bulls were winning the championship, you wouldn't have called Pippen one of the top 5 players in the NBA.  Generally, both LeBron and Wade are considered top 5 individual talents in the NBA today (and I don't see much of an argument against that statement).

 

[essential1]

short answer: a lot

 

[PatRiley]

why does it take multiple scoring titles (10? are you serious?) to be better than jordan?

 

[alexanderfasto]

Bump!!

 I got to say something!

For an individual to overcome his "Airness" accomplishments it will take a whole team, a whole coaching staff, a whole organization, and a whole city to help him surpass MJ.

A Whole Team
 -Jordan as a player is an exception, his name should be synonymous with greatness, competitiveness, and leadership. Nobody should be compared to MJ that's it since he might be the epitomy of success as a basketball player though he may not have won as much championships as he wanted to but still the mere fact that he did win with a team that has the "BEST" role players not All-Stars (aside for Scottie) seems speaks for it self.

A Whole Coaching Staff
-Phil Jackson, Johnny Bach, Jim Cleamons, Tex Winter, Frank Hamblen, and Jim Rodgers great minds really goes hand in hand with great player(s)

A Whole Organization
-Chicago Bulls may not be considered as the best franchise in the NBA or the winningest team but were a great organization. Jerry Krause may not be popular amongst his coaches
  and players but he is the "architect" behind all these, the one who gave Phil Jackson his chance to be a head coach, the GM that built around MJ talent.

A Whole City
-Jordan had Chicago at the palm of his hands, and later the whole world.

In the end, All of us has our own opinions, but surpassing MJ isn't just about championships, endorsement deals, and stats, It's about the way he gained our oohs and aahs while he was playing. The number of kids (like me) imitating his moves in mid-air, the ever famous tongue waggling dunks, fighting for time in front of TV just to watch him play,  I think when all of this debate ends it is just "NOT" fair for players now and in the future to be compared to his "Airness". Just like what they did when they stopped comparing MJ to the legends before him.

 

[dipsetgeneral]

Nobody is ever going to top 10 scoring titles ever again, let's be logical here...

 

[you go boy]

not going to go too much into this so ill keep it simple for now... theres definitely a lot more but ill just put 1 comment for now....they have to win more than 6 championships without losing once

 

[iwearjordan4life]

To be better than MJ....you have to turn your weakness into your strength. Did anybody in the NBA today done that? As a rookie, people doubt MJ can survive in the NBA because of his size. Then he became one of the strongest guards in the NBA. People said he's a terrible shooter and he master that fadeaway shot and destroy everybody that's guarding him. People said he's a 1-D player but can only play offense and have no D at all. He take that as a encouragement and became one of the top defender in the NBA. People think of his wizards comeback is a joke but I think he had proved to everybody at age 39 & 40 he's still better than most YOUNG NBA STARS in the NBA. Name 1 player in the NBA that turn his weakness into his strength?

 

[iwearjordan4life]

To be better than MJ....you have to turn your weakness into your strength. Did anybody in the NBA today done that? As a rookie, people doubt MJ can survive in the NBA because of his size. Then he became one of the strongest guards in the NBA. People said he's a terrible shooter and he master that fadeaway shot and destroy everybody that's guarding him. People said he's a 1-D player but can only play offense and have no D at all. He take that as a encouragement and became one of the top defender in the NBA. People think of his wizards comeback is a joke but I think he had proved to everybody at age 39 & 40 he's still better than most YOUNG NBA STARS in the NBA. Name 1 player in the NBA that turn his weakness into his strength?

 

[iwearjordan4life]

To be better than MJ....you have to turn your weakness into your strength. Did anybody in the NBA today done that? As a rookie, people doubt MJ can survive in the NBA because of his size. Then he became one of the strongest guards in the NBA. People said he's a terrible shooter and he master that fadeaway shot and destroy everybody that's guarding him. People said he's a 1-D player but can only play offense and have no D at all. He take that as a encouragement and became one of the top defender in the NBA. People think of his wizards comeback is a joke but I think he had proved to everybody at age 39 & 40 he's still better than most YOUNG NBA STARS in the NBA. Name 1 player in the NBA that turn his weakness into his strength?

 

[iwearjordan4life]

To be better than MJ....you have to turn your weakness into your strength. Did anybody in the NBA today done that? As a rookie, people doubt MJ can survive in the NBA because of his size. Then he became one of the strongest guards in the NBA. People said he's a terrible shooter and he master that fadeaway shot and destroy everybody that's guarding him. People said he's a 1-D player but can only play offense and have no D at all. He take that as a encouragement and became one of the top defender in the NBA. People think of his wizards comeback is a joke but I think he had proved to everybody at age 39 & 40 he's still better than most YOUNG NBA STARS in the NBA. Name 1 player in the NBA that turn his weakness into his strength?

 

[eentegra]

to surpass mj, you have to change the game; the nba. that's what dr j did. thats what magic and larry did. and that's what jordan did. and finally be a winner. that is what jordan was all about. winning. if you told money he cant win, he'll prove you wrong. no giving up or stop trying either. and i think one thing about MJ was he came to play every game. bill russell said it the best that jordan never took the day off.

 

[CJMcfly26]

Most Complete
[table][tr][td][/td][td]Oscar Robertson[/td][td]Michael Jordan[/td][/tr][tr][td]Years played[/td][td]14[/td][td]15[/td][/tr][tr][td]Number of times finished in the top 5 in scoring average[/td][td]9[/td][td]11[/td][/tr][tr][td]Number of times finished in the top 10 in rebounds[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][/tr][tr][td]Number of times finished in the top 10 in assists[/td][td]12[/td][td]1[/td][/tr][tr][td]Number of times finished in the top 10 in free throw %[/td][td]8[/td][td]0[/td][/tr][tr][td]Number of times led the league in ppg[/td][td]1[/td][td]10[/td][/tr][tr][td]Number of times led the league in apg[/td][td]7[/td][td]0[/td][/tr][tr][td]Number of times led the league in ft%[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][/tr][tr][td]Career Triple Doubles[/td][td]181[/td][td]30[/td][/tr][tr][td]Best season[/td][td]30.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg
 (1962)[/td][td]32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg 
(1989)[/td][/tr][/table]


Oscar Robertson – Oscar Robertson was simply the most complete player in basketball history.  In his first season as a pro, he averaged 30.5 ppg, 9.7 rpg, and 9.7 apg.  (Jordan averaged 28.2, 6.5, and 5.9).  Over the course of his first five seasons Robertson AVERAGED a triple-double. Triple-double games were not recorded when Robertson played. It was another day at the office for him. This perfectly illustrates the difference between Robertson and Jordan. The media made a big deal out of Jordan having the first (recorded) triple-double in All-Star history, just like they make a big deal out of Jason Kidd’s 7-or so triple-doubles he has each year. For Robertson, he didn’t need to have an extra assists to reach 10, to have that "triple-double," because it wasn’t a big deal. Back then, fans recognized greatness by one's play, and not because a guy has 10 assists, 10 rebounds, and 10 points. Furthermore, Robertson didn’t simply have triple-doubles of the Jason Kidd 10-10-10 variety.  No, he had man-sized triple-doubles. His triple-doubles were on the order of 30-11-10. In 1962, he finished in the top 10 in rebounds, something Jordan never did, nor came close to doing.  Robertson led the league in assists 5 out of his first 6 years, and finished in the top 10 11 out of his 13 years.  The only times he missed was because injuries kept him from getting the minimum needed to qualify.   Jordan never led the league in assists and only finished in the top 10 one time.  In 1968, Oscar became the only player in history to lead the league in ppg, apg, and ft%.in the same season.  

Defensively, when Robertson played, there was no defensive player of the year award, and the all-defensive team was introduced after he was out of his prime, but he had a reputation as a first-rate defender.  There simply was no weakness to his game.  He is far, far, more complete than Michael Jordan.  The facts speak for themselves.

 

[kvsm23vs24]

Originally Posted by IwearJORDAN4LIFE

To be better than MJ....you have to turn your weakness into your strength. Did anybody in the NBA today done that? As a rookie, people doubt MJ can survive in the NBA because of his size. Then he became one of the strongest guards in the NBA. People said he's a terrible shooter and he master that fadeaway shot and destroy everybody that's guarding him. People said he's a 1-D player but can only play offense and have no D at all. He take that as a encouragement and became one of the top defender in the NBA. People think of his wizards comeback is a joke but I think he had proved to everybody at age 39 & 40 he's still better than most YOUNG NBA STARS in the NBA. Name 1 player in the NBA that turn his weakness into his strength?

Considering youve only been a fan since '96, i dont take your opinion so high.

He was a good defender when he came in, even in NC he was a really good defender. i dont know what the hell you are talking about. i mean he won the defensive player award like in his third or fourth year.

he was not a terrible shootier either. only at the 3. he always had the 10-15 midrange shot. 

What are you talking about, about his size??? he was the perfect 6'6 guard. Aint no one was wondering this shiit about Mike when he came in the league. Fool Averaged 28points his rookie season.


  

 

[bijald0331]

Look at pace numbers when Oscar played. His stats are inflated, just like Wilt's. The average ppg for an NBA team during 1961-1962 was 118.8! Stats from that time are slightly inflated.

Oscar doesn't touch MJ. He's maybe top-5, definitely top 10. 1 title? And with a peak Kareem? You can't put Wilt and Oscar in the greatest debate for the same reason: if they were so great, they would have figured out how to win more often. That's why Russell will always be ahead of them.

"the Royals were eliminated in the first round three times in a row from 1965 to 1967, and then even missed the playoffs three consecutive seasons from 1968 to 1970."

Really? The peak of the "greatest" NBA player's career, 27-30, and his team gets sent home in the 1st round? Really?

 

[anthony stark]

The same thing a player would have to do to be considered greater than Gretzky.

 

[manilaboyxix]

Sell a lot of shoes.

 

[bdeazy]

Originally Posted by PoeticJays

What would a player have to do to be considered greater than Jordan?

Why ponder such question?

/thread

 

[live boy d]

Oscar Robertson > Jordan

 

[crobers 78]

Originally Posted by you go boy

not going to go too much into this so ill keep it simple for now... theres definitely a lot more but ill just put 1 comment for now....they have to win more than 6 championships without losing once

LOL! Precisely...