What would a player have to do to be considered greater than Jordan?

[big sippin spendin cheese]

^^^^^ he was only 34 at the end  of the 6th title


so he would have been 34 when he got his 8th title had they not missed the two in between.




and i knew mostly lakers fans were gonna be the ones saying jordan wasnt the greatest.


face it he's head and shoulders better than any player thats ever worn a laker jersey.

even magic always says that michael is the greatest of all time.

magic knows.

 

[CP1708]

Where did I say Mike wasn't the greatest? 

I said no way Mike wins 8 straight. 

I said those others could make cases, I didn't say one of them was a correct answer. 

 

[fro b giant]

Here is a bit of information I dug up on my own that I thought was interesting. Like for instance did you know Kobe has made the Finals more years than he has missed the Finals? He has missed the Finals 7 times out of 13 complete seasons, if they make the Finals again this year it will be 7 out of 14 seasons he has done this. he has also missed the playoffs ONLY ONCE ever in his career. That's hard to do IMO. This doesn't take into account points or personal numbers like that and is not meant to say Kobe is better or anything. Just thought it would contribute to the post. I do feel that Jordan has proven he is the GOAT but maybe he's not as far off as we are told.

I plan on expanding this to Kareem, Magic, Bird, LeBron and will update if requested.

 

[deuce king]

Like for instance did you know Kobe has made the Finals more years than he has missed the Finals? He has missed the Finals 7 times out of 13 complete seasons,
 
Kobe can thank Shaq for that.  I'm not knocking Kobe per say but just make sure you tell the entire equation and not just a certain part of it.  For those that don't know or seem to have forgotten Kobe played the role of Robin for at least half of his career, Mike played the role of Batman his entire career.  Nothing wrong with that of course, everybody cant be Batman, somebody's got to be Robin, which is where Kobe came into play during a good portion of his career.       

 

[onetrust]

Originally Posted by Fro B Giant

Here is a bit of information I dug up on my own that I thought was interesting. Like for instance did you know Kobe has made the Finals more years than he has missed the Finals? He has missed the Finals 7 times out of 13 complete seasons, if they make the Finals again this year it will be 7 out of 14 seasons he has done this. he has also missed the playoffs ONLY ONCE ever in his career. That's hard to do IMO. This doesn't take into account points or personal numbers like that and is not meant to say Kobe is better or anything. Just thought it would contribute to the post. I do feel that Jordan has proven he is the GOAT but maybe he's not as far off as we are told.

I plan on expanding this to Kareem, Magic, Bird, LeBron and will update if requested.

   When you start your career off with a PRIME Shaq, you BETTER make the playoffs every year.  What's the numbers on Duncan?  Hasn't his team made the playoffs every year?

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by OneTrust

Originally Posted by Fro B Giant

Here is a bit of information I dug up on my own that I thought was interesting. Like for instance did you know Kobe has made the Finals more years than he has missed the Finals? He has missed the Finals 7 times out of 13 complete seasons, if they make the Finals again this year it will be 7 out of 14 seasons he has done this. he has also missed the playoffs ONLY ONCE ever in his career. That's hard to do IMO. This doesn't take into account points or personal numbers like that and is not meant to say Kobe is better or anything. Just thought it would contribute to the post. I do feel that Jordan has proven he is the GOAT but maybe he's not as far off as we are told.

I plan on expanding this to Kareem, Magic, Bird, LeBron and will update if requested.

   When you start your career off with a PRIME Shaq, you BETTER make the playoffs every year.  What's the numbers on Duncan?  Hasn't his team made the playoffs every year?

Agreed, but the two years before the Lakers got a better team Kobe was playing with bums, he got them to the playoffs two years and literally carried them on his back. That's a bit off topic. I will add Duncan to the list, and yes he has made the playoffs every season of his career, an amazing accomplishment. He has never had a team as bad as the Lakers have the three years after Shaq though, so it's not as impressive to me.

 

[luxurious24]

thing is Michael changed the game, forget the stats, rings, whatever, when J was playin it was all about basketball world wide, if jordan was on the television u had to watch, thats y there will neva be anyone better, its jus like how there will neva be better rappers than tupac and biggie, cause those dudes changed the game, they made rap what it is, just like Mike made basketball. There is just some things that a person accomplish that put them to the top forever.

 

[kb8sandiego]

Originally Posted by BIG SIPPIN SPENDIN CHEESE

^^^^^ he was only 34 at the end  of the 6th title


so he would have been 34 when he got his 8th title had they not missed the two in between.




and i knew mostly lakers fans were gonna be the ones saying jordan wasnt the greatest.


face it he's head and shoulders better than any player thats ever worn a laker jersey.

even magic always says that michael is the greatest of all time.

magic knows.

I'm a Laker fan and I recognize and agree that Jordan is the greatest of all time, but to say head and shoulders over anyone that's ever worn a Laker jersey?

I think this man has a decent argument. Not saying he's better than Mike, but dude's resume is just as nice.

• 
  

  [*]6× NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)[*]1× NBA Champion (2009) as an Assistant Coach.[*]6× NBA MVP (1971-1972, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980)[*]19× NBA All-Star (1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989)[*]2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)[*]10× All-NBA First Team Selection (1971-1973, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980-1981, 1984, 1986)[*]5× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970, 1978-1979, 1983, 1985)[*]5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1974-1975, 1979-1981)[*]6× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1970-1971, 1976-1978, 1984)[*]1970 NBA Rookie of the Year[*]1970 NBA All-Rookie Team[*]NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team[*]3× NCAA Men's Basketball Champion (1967), (1968), (1969)[*]3× NCAA Basketball Tournament MOP (1967), (1968), (1969)[*]1× Naismith College Player of the Year (1969)[*]2× USBWA College Player of the Year (1967-196

 

[ben roethlisberger]

Trying so hard to stay out of this thread, but its damn hard.

98% of you are just posting accomplishments. If were talking Championships then I guess we should mention Robert Horry and John Salley in the same breathe as his airness right?

Now if were talking basketball talent, skills and what you are able to do on the court that no other player has done...WITH CONSISTENCY. Michael Jordan is in the driver seat and Kobe Bryant is either on his lap (nh) or riding shotgun.

I've never seen ANY player do the things they have been able to do. And honestly, some nights, (might seem biased as a laker fan) I tend to think Kobe might have a step on MJ in the skills department.

 

[japanair21]

CP agreeing with me and repping that Laker Gold & Purple.

It's a good day, even though it's raining out here in California.

 

[big sippin spendin cheese]

players like magic,kobe,and duncan came into teams that were really good and not that far from a championship


mike came into a team that was crap and has been crap since he left (except for 1994)



he basically made the whole franchise

imagine if the bulls would have drafted bowie instead of jordan,they'd probably be the worst nba team ever

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by Ben Roethlisberger

Trying so hard to stay out of this thread, but its damn hard.

98% of you are just posting accomplishments. If were talking Championships then I guess we should mention Robert Horry and John Salley in the same breathe as his airness right?

Now if were talking basketball talent, skills and what you are able to do on the court that no other player has done...WITH CONSISTENCY. Michael Jordan is in the driver seat and Kobe Bryant is either on his lap (nh) or riding shotgun.

I've never seen ANY player do the things they have been able to do. And honestly, some nights, (might seem biased as a laker fan) I tend to think Kobe might have a step on MJ in the skills department.

I think people talking championships are recognizing the player would have had to be top 2 on the team, not just a role player. But I understand where you're coming from. I personally think championships are what any player wants and they would trade any personal accolade for one. I would say the weight on rings is higher by a bunch than anything else. The other things are voted on by media, not peers, and something that is based on opinion (MVP/Awards) cannot be given as much weight as something based on fact (championships). Now the MVP's are nice and all but they are not why guys play the game.Below is some more research adding Kareem and LeBron. Now LeBron has a long way to go still in his career.

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

Like for instance did you know Kobe has made the Finals more years than he has missed the Finals? He has missed the Finals 7 times out of 13 complete seasons,

 
Kobe can thank Shaq for that.  I'm not knocking Kobe per say but just make sure you tell the entire equation and not just a certain part of it.  For those that don't know or seem to have forgotten Kobe played the role of Robin for at least half of his career, Mike played the role of Batman his entire career.  Nothing wrong with that of course, everybody cant be Batman, somebody's got to be Robin, which is where Kobe came into play during a good portion of his career.       

To me they can thank each other. You can't win the rings without each other. Shaq can also thank D Wade and if he happens to win another he can thank Lebron. I think the point is this is not an individual game and you can't do it alone. Jordan couldn't do it alone early in his career, it wasn't till 7 years in that they won a Finals.Before that the team was outted first round 3 times, 2nd two times, and conf finals twice before making it happen. He didn't win till they had a good team around him, same goes for anyone else weather or not they are Batman or Robin. Just to highlight, without Jordan in 1994, the Bulls still almost made it to the Finals, losing in game 7 of the Conference Finals. Take Kobe off of those Laker teams that barely made it by Sacramento, Portland, and San Antonio and you are looking at three years with no Finals appearances let alone championships. The same can be said about Shaq.

I addded Kareem and Lebron, the thing that stand out to me is Kareem made the playoffs almost his whole career of 20 years! He only missed two, as was mentioned before he also made the Finals 10 seasons! Lebron has a long way to go as far as playoffs and championships but he has his whole career ahead of him. The thing that stands out to me is he made it to the Finals his 4th year in the league though he doesn't have a Finals win. They got swept in the Finals.

 

[copped]

Originally Posted by BIG SIPPIN SPENDIN CHEESE


players like magic,kobe,and duncan came into teams that were really good and not that far from a championship


mike came into a team that was crap and has been crap since he left (except for 1994)



he basically made the whole franchise

imagine if the bulls would have drafted bowie instead of jordan,they'd probably be the worst nba team ever

huh?

duncan came into a team that was a championship contender? he made that team into a championship team right out of his rookie season

can we get a comparison of jordan and duncan? in terms of playoffs/champinonships, playoff records...season game records...etc.

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by copped

Originally Posted by BIG SIPPIN SPENDIN CHEESE


players like magic,kobe,and duncan came into teams that were really good and not that far from a championship


mike came into a team that was crap and has been crap since he left (except for 1994)



he basically made the whole franchise

imagine if the bulls would have drafted bowie instead of jordan,they'd probably be the worst nba team ever

huh?

duncan came into a team that was a championship contender? he made that team into a championship team right out of his rookie season

can we get a comparison of jordan and duncan? in terms of playoffs/champinonships, playoff records...season game records...etc.

I did Russell just now and I will add Duncan. Btw Russell's numbers look ridiculous on paper but I noticed he met the same two teams in the Finals every year which says something about the league at the time.

 

[CP1708]

Fro, can you add Horry and Billups? 

 

One, I wanna see all those wins for Horry, and 2, I wanna see all the consecutive conference finals for Billups. 

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Fro, can you add Horry and Billups? 

 

One, I wanna see all those wins for Horry, and 2, I wanna see all the consecutive conference finals for Billups. 

I won't waste my or your time with that. I would seriously have a hard time jumping from team to team with Horry.

Russell and Duncan:

 

[darthska]

Xtapolapacetl:

---

23ska909red02:

---

Xtapolapacetl:

---

Why are people just taking facts like "never losing in the finals" and making that as some magical criteria as to why a player is the GOAT?



Kareem, Magic, Bird & Shaq have all lost in the finals multiple times. Hakeem also lost in the finals. Tim Duncan on the other hand has been in 4 finals and hasn't lost a single time. But if you think that Duncan's greatness surpasses any of these 5 players, you're just flat out wrong.



Be honest, you're just taking this "never lost in the finals" out of convenience, because it's just a random fact about Jordan and you feel that it's convincing because it supports your agenda. It's certainly a nice accomplishment, and Jordan might be the GOAT, but he will never be the undisputed GOAT.
First off, the reason he'll never be the undisputed GOAT has nothing to do with his stats not being bloated enough. As long as people have opinions, Jordan will never be the undisputed GOAT.

Second, it's not just that he was 6-0 in the Finals; he was 6-0 AND the MVP every time. Duncan can't say that, and even his undefeated Finals count is at 4, not 6. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq weren't the MVPs of every Finals they won. Saying Jordan was the MVP of all 6 of his Finals without ever losing one, putting up the highest playoff PPG of all time... I mean, all of that together paints a different picture than 'just' saying 'Oh, 6-0 in the Finals. Whoop-dee-do.'



Again, just a another argument based on convenience.. Just review your argument and what you're saying. It's amazing to think that hypothetically, had Jordan made the NBA finals in 1990 and 1995, but ended up losing both finals (and obviously not winning the Finals MVP), this would've somehow REDUCED his status as the G.O.A.T. based on this lame convenient "never lost in the finals, won finals MVP all 6 times" argument. I mean, how silly is that? So in essence it's good that Jordan didn't advance as much in the playoffs in 1990 and 1995 just to support this lame argument.

Like I said, it's just an argument based on convenience. People who think Jordan is the GOAT basically just found a combo of accomplishments that only Jordan has and they roll with that. I can do that too. Like if I wanted to make a case for Magic Johnson, I could say something like the fact that in his NBA career that spanned 13 seasons, he only missed the NBA finals 4 times.. While in Jordan's 15 season career, he missed the finals 9 times.

Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by winning.
Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T. if you want to go by stats. (Personally, I stay away from these two because when they played the game was way too different from modern basketball. And I never actually saw them play)

Kareem and Jordan have the the best argument for G.O.A.T. if you stack up their individual and team accomplishments, but Kareem's are the most impressive overall.
Why Kareem? Because of some conveniently packaged criteria like 'most career points'? Oh, that means nothing; it's just something that people can conveniently attach to his name knowing that it can't attached to anyone else's name.

The fact that Jordan went to the Finals 6 times and won 6 times and was the MVP six times is something that any other player has an ability to earn, but hasn't. I don't mean the specific number 6, but the being undefeated in the Finals and the MVP every time. Sure Duncan is 4-4, but wasn't the MVP every time. Magic was in 9 Finals, but didn't win 'em all, and also wasn't the MVP every time. Kareem? Same thing. Hakeem was undefeated in the Finals and the MVP every time... exactly one-third of the amount of times Jordan has done it.

Jordan is also one of only 4 guards to be the DPOY. Is that another conveniently packaged argument tailor-made to fit the argument for Jordan as GOAT? That's one [flawed] perspective, I guess. However, it's possible for every guard ever to have been the DPOY, but only 4 have done it. He's one of them.

Reducing individual accomplishments to 'conveniently packaged' items tailor-made for that individual is desperate refuting, at best.

 

[dmxfury]

98% of you are just posting accomplishments. If were talkingChampionships then I guess we should mention Robert Horry and JohnSalley in the same breathe as his airness right?
I hate when people say this kind of stuff, you know that a role player on a championship team is nowhere near the same as the main cog in the machine.  Regardless of the sport

 

[darthska]

Nah, you're more than welcome to mention Horry and Salley.

But just winning the championship isn't what most people are throwing out there; undefeated in championships while winning MVP every time.

Horry and Salley get entrance into that discussion?

"No they don't. My bad."

 

[vanexellent]

No player will be able to recreate the way Jordan captured the public's attention due to it already being done and due to the widespread use of media nowadays. Jordan came out when places like ESPN were barely blossoming and the business side of basketball was at an infancy. I think its impossible for a player to both put up super stats and capture the worlds attention the way Jordan did. Lebron and Kobe can have similar numbers but this era's players can never have that impact Jordan did on his generation.

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Nah, you're more than welcome to mention Horry and Salley.

But just winning the championship isn't what most people are throwing out there; undefeated in championships while winning MVP every time.

Horry and Salley get entrance into that discussion?

"No they don't. My bad."

My beef with the whole winning MVP every time argument is that is not something that is based on solid fact, peoples emotions are involved when deciding the MVP. Winning championships while being a main part of the team means more to me personally. As a kid I watched all the Finals Jodan won and taking nothing from him, he was the most polarizing character in the NBA, and I am a Lakers fan! Why I bring that up is you can't help but vote for jordan for Finals MVP because you like the guy, he also has the stats to justify it but you wouldn't think of giving that award to anyone else on those teams. I believe it's the same reason Kobe didn't win the league MVP in 2006, people didn't like him outside of Lakers fans.

Many people will use the 6 Finals MVP's as a huge piece in his argument for best ever but I tend to look at the other numbers as more important. The Finals wins and never losing a Finals series, the scoring in the playoffs, the numbers mean everything. What makes him untouchable is not necessarily the numbers but that he touched people emotionally. If we were around in Bill Russell's time and the games were televised like they have been when Jordan was playing who knows if it would be the same.

With all that said I still think Jordan will be untouched for a long time unless we see a streak from someone like Kobe or Lebron. Don't get me wrong he's not untouchable because of the numbers but because of the way the majority of people FEEL about him. I bet if he did something really stupid in his personal life like kill someone or have someone killed, soon they would anoint another GOAT. Think about that for a minute, you know it's true.

 

[CP1708]

Horry was 7-7 in finals though.......

Just no MVP's. 

 

[darthska]

*sigh*

'Just' no MVP?

I hope my sarcasm meter is broken.

 

[prime1984]

Originally Posted by BIG SIPPIN SPENDIN CHEESE

imagine if the bulls would have drafted bowie instead of jordan,they'd probably be the worst nba team ever





  

 This topic would be a mute point if the Blazers had Sabonis in his prime, in the 90s.