*'11-'12 LAKERS Thread; 41-25* 1st Rd: DEN (go to 1st Rd. Thread)

[essential1]

I love the shooting percentage debate...

You are literally talking about less than a shot a game for Kobe to make out of the shots he takes....

It is a tired argument honestly... Kobe is 45% career.. Not 39%..

Even if he takes 1 shot less than he took in the game.. Or makes 1 shot that doesn't fall he is at your range...


You are not talking 5 shots a game is the difference.. You are talking making less than 1 more game OR shooting 1 less of the one's he missed in a game....

So acting as if his shooting percentage is the worst thing in history is in reality a lot less important if you are talking about it in terms of shots as opposed to percentages... 

 

[tupac003]

Originally Posted by goldenarmz97


1. Kobe Finds Shot, But Not Blooming Bynum
By J.A. Adande
ESPN.com
Archive
LOS ANGELES -- The most fascinating matchup in the NBA has become who Kobe Bryant is versus who he was.


So there's the update from the front on the NBA's biggest battle. Kobe Bryant is liberated; Bynum is a prisoner of war.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime

IMO I think bynum is playing this hard so he can get out of here. I think he would welcome a trade to Orlando. He could be the center of that team and I think he wants that...

 

[kvsm23vs24]

I doubt Bynum would play as well
Bynum has the liberty to play one on one more often, because you cant double team him with Pay and Kobe in the game.
The homie Dwight is playing with bums and the main guy to defend is Dwight

 

[guttagetsbusy]

Shout outs to Bynum once again. Gonna vote for him to be an All-Star this year.

 

[ag 47]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

AG 47:

---

Ironically, he used to lock down A.I.

Numbers and/or stats to support this claim, please?

And I'm not talking about stats that show Iverson's numbers 'went down a few points' whenever he played the Lakers; I'm talking about stats that show that he was 'locked down', since that's the phrase you used.


Thought you'd never ask.

1999-2000 Season:

In a February victory over the 76ers, Kobe shut down Allen Iverson, holding him to 0-of-9 shooting in the fourth quarter. It was this kind of effort that earned him a spot on the NBA’s All-Defensive First Team.

Iverson, averaging 30.9 points, finished with 16 after going 0 for 11 in the final two quarters against the taller (seven inches), longer and sufficiently quick Bryant.

Bryant made sure to slap a few exclamation points on the statement - he blocked Iverson's shot four times, including three swats in the final 8:17 as the Lakers fought back from a five-point deficit in the fourth.


2006-2007 Season, Playoffs:

Allen Iverson scored 51 points but he had just two in the fourth quarter as Kobe Bryant took over at both ends of the court to lead the Lakers to a 111-107 win in Denver.

He very effectively guarded Carmelo Anthony for the first half of the period and then he shut down Iverson in the last six minutes of the period, chasing him all over the court and holding him to two points.


2009-2010 Season:

Iverson netted 15 and at one point he scored 11 points in a row for the 76ers .In the fourth, Iverson scored six points but only two over the last eight minutes. That's because that's when Bryant was guarding him. Iverson is a half a step slower than he used to and that combined with Bryant's height advantage shut down the Answer.


So while Iverson torched LA in most cases, when Kobe Bryant took up the task of defending A.I., he struggled mightily.

 

[CP1708]

This just gets better and better.  Kobe Bryant has a higher shooting percentage than Paul Pierce. 

And Kobe has taken like 6,000 more shots, meaning more chances for him to miss. 

 

Paul Pierce has never, ever finished top 5 in MVP shares.  Kobe has 9 times. 

Pierce while having his own franchise his entire career til almost the age of 30, had his highest scoring average of 26.8.  Kobe has hit the 26.8 mark 8 times.  Including getting 30 a game the same year that another player on the Lakers was getting almost 30 a night as well.  Look it up, it is not easy to have 2 guys score 30 a night, just look at Wade and Bron's numbers last year.  It's hard to do.  Since Pierce guy will want to try and shoot holes all thru my argument, Kobe averages 9 out of 19 shots per game for his career, Paul is at 7 of 16. 

If you used the whole advanced stat craze taking over, Kobe is 17th all time in PER.  Paul is 49th. 

Last year as Kobe was getting older and older, and more and more hurt, with over 5,000 more minutes and over 200 more games played than Pierce, Kobe played a shade under 34 minutes a game, and averaged 25 a night with a PER of 23.9.  Pierce, played more minutes per night, at just a shade under 35 minutes, scroing 19 a night with a PER of 19.7.  Again, the one with more wear and tear on his body, played less minutes, produced better results. 

So yeah, they are REAAAAALLY close to each other in terms of career.  In the prime of his youth, Paul played in 11 playoff games from the age of 26-29, missing the playoffs 2 of those 4 years.  Kobe played in 12 playoff games in the 2 years he dealt with Walton/Kwame/and Smush as his starting unit.  Oh, and for what it's worth, Kobe played those years in the loaded West, Pierce played in the East, back when the East was a JV squad and was ripe for the taking.

Pierce never once has been All NBA, and has 2 player of the month awards.  Kobe has been all NBA 9 times, and player of the month 15 times. 

Oh but once Paul got 2 other franchise players, as well as a stud young PG, then he became a playoff legend. 

So close.  Mirrors of each other.  Almost the exact same career path.  Identical. 

So, Cole World, can we close the book on Paul Pierce today?  Or do you require more? 

 

[CP1708]

1999-2000 Season:

In a February victory over the 76ers, Kobe shut down Allen Iverson, holding him to 0-of-9 shooting in the fourth quarter. It was this kind of effort that earned him a spot on the NBA’s All-Defensive First Team.

Iverson, averaging 30.9 points, finished with 16 after going 0 for 11 in the final two quarters against the taller (seven inches), longer and sufficiently quick Bryant.

Bryant made sure to slap a few exclamation points on the statement - he blocked Iverson's shot four times, including three swats in the final 8:17 as the Lakers fought back from a five-point deficit in the fourth.

Good find AG. 

Ska, this is the game right after the all star game that Kobe was getting lessons from Gary Payton during practice, they played a Sunday game vs Philly like a week or two later, and Kobe was ALL OVER AI.  It's how Kobe earned the rep and got all defensive first team that year, AI was an elite scorer back then, and Kobe shut him down. 

This will add to a point of mine coming up. 

 

[darthska]

AG 47:

---

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

AG 47:

---

Ironically, he used to lock down A.I.

Numbers and/or stats to support this claim, please?

And I'm not talking about stats that show Iverson's numbers 'went down a few points' whenever he played the Lakers; I'm talking about stats that show that he was 'locked down', since that's the phrase you used.


Thought you'd never ask.

1999-2000 Season:

In a February victory over the 76ers, Kobe shut down Allen Iverson, holding him to 0-of-9 shooting in the fourth quarter. It was this kind of effort that earned him a spot on the NBA’s All-Defensive First Team.

Iverson, averaging 30.9 points, finished with 16 after going 0 for 11 in the final two quarters against the taller (seven inches), longer and sufficiently quick Bryant.

Bryant made sure to slap a few exclamation points on the statement - he blocked Iverson's shot four times, including three swats in the final 8:17 as the Lakers fought back from a five-point deficit in the fourth.


2006-2007 Season, Playoffs:

Allen Iverson scored 51 points but he had just two in the fourth quarter as Kobe Bryant took over at both ends of the court to lead the Lakers to a 111-107 win in Denver.

He very effectively guarded Carmelo Anthony for the first half of the period and then he shut down Iverson in the last six minutes of the period, chasing him all over the court and holding him to two points.


2009-2010 Season:

Iverson netted 15 and at one point he scored 11 points in a row for the 76ers .In the fourth, Iverson scored six points but only two over the last eight minutes. That's because that's when Bryant was guarding him. Iverson is a half a step slower than he used to and that combined with Bryant's height advantage shut down the Answer.


So while Iverson torched LA in most cases, when Kobe Bryant took up the task of defending A.I., he struggled mightily.
Jesus Christ, good post.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

CP:

---

Ska, how do you regard Phil?  Is he the greatest coach of all time, or just a guy that got by with MJ, Scottie, Shaq, and Kobe?  There a coach you think is better than Phil?

I can't call a coach 'GOAT' that handled the Kobe/Shaq situation the way Phil did. Do I think Auerbach would have handled that better? Yes. Sloan? Yes. Pop? Yes.

Am I saying those coaches are better than Phil? No. Am I saying that we would've been successful, albeit a different kind is successful, with Pop or Sloan?

Now, let's think back now.  And I will try not to re-hash too much of it, but remember, Phil did manage to get Kobe/Shaq thru 5 years together.  4 of those, finals runs.  3, Titles, back, to back, to back.  Pop or Sloan ever go back to back? 

 

Now, Kobe and Shaq already had issues/qualms in 2000, Phil got them to 04 before they totally crumbled.  And if not for Colorado, maybe they don't crumble fully at all.  We'll put that on Kobe, he was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Phil however, worked them thru 5 pretty damn solid seasons. 

Phil also managed Mikes ego.  Then added Rodman later, ya know just for fun. 

  And got 3 years out of that somehow. 

Pop had the quietest star ever.  And the Frenchie.  And the soft flopper dude that can't play with a tiny broken bone in his hand.  S-Jax, the lone "bad" guy they had, Pop got rid of pretty quick.  I'm sorry, but Pop never even dealt with an issue/challenge like what Phil took on.  And it ain't like Phil's up 5-4 here, Phil is up 11-4, and with 2 other finals that we blew.  Malone stays healthy, no Colorado, and if Bynum/Ariza were healthy, maybe 11 gets added on too.  Meanwhile, Pop and his nice guys have 4, and only 4.  And Pop shall never be heard from again in San Antonio. 

Sloan, 2 studs that played for like 20 years, relevant forever, but never a major threat til the late 90's, after Magic retired, and after Hakeem was done.  Before the young Duncan and young Shaq/Kobe crew could take over the West, those was the two years that the Jazz made a run.  Phil's team of Mike/Scottie/Rodman, plus all their drama with upper management not wanting any of them back the next year, etc etc was going, still won both times.  Interesting. 

So Phil goes 2-2 vs Sloan, then faces Pop in the playoffs 5 times, 01, 02, 03, 04, and 08.  Four of those times, you and I came out smiling. 

  Call me crazy, but that's Phil 6, other dudes 1.  My math right? 

So when you say, "handled"  what you mean is they wouldn't have been able to stand it, and would have made a knee jerk trade to seperate the two super stars, and effectively worsen the team.  Made it a nicer, happier culture, but worsen the talent pool.  And let's not forget, after those big 2 in LA, we depended on guys like Fish, Fox, Horry, Shaw, old @#$ Ron Harper, old @#$ Horace Grant, Samalki Walker, Slava Medvedenko, I mean, we weren't exactly a muderers row here. 

  And yet, they always found a way to win.  Shaq and Kobe, always were brought together late in the season for the common goal, which Phil massaged all season long.

At the end of his career, he brought in your boy.  Ron Artest.  A career loser.  A guy I proved to you how many fails he had, he was a terrible teammate, terrible player, and Phil brought him in.  Just like Rodman.  And Ron had the best year of his entire career.  That count for anything? 

Pop and Sloan might have won a title in LA, maybe 2.  Win some regular season games, could rounds, etc etc.  Would they win 5 in 11 years?  Would they win back to back to back, and then a few years later with a complete new team minus 2 guys, win back to back?  Pop was never able to repeat even once with his teams.  Sloan had 2 of the top 25 all time players, for over 15 years, and couldn't win one title.  And who blocked him? 

Phil is MILES ahead of those guys.  MILES. 


Ray Ray next......

  

 

[licensed to ball]

Ska is defending these obvious trolls so hard you would think they are his cousins

if it's so obvious to 99% of us what they are trying to do in this thread I don't see how it can't be noticed. I have nO problem with peoPle who don't like us coming in and discussing the games or the team with us, they can even laugh if they want at us when we lose It's a free country... But it's so obvious they are going abOve and beyond to try to annoy peoPle with outlandish statements they dont even believe themselves, that it shocks me anyone wouldn't notice.

 

[CP1708]

Ska:

CP:

---

Remember though, his point was the chucking, not the skillset.  Ska knows TMac, and even Vince Carter would be similar switches on position/body types, what his point was was the AI shot selections and Kobe shot selections.  I'm the one that brought up the position issue between the two. 

TMac and Vince aren't necessarily considered chuckers.  Soft, weak minded, soaked wet spots maybe, but not chuckers. 

 

That's why he went with AI.
Three reasons I went with AI, actually.

– both volume shooter
– similar "You can't tell me nothing" attitudes
– year drafted

And there is someone else from that draft that I've mentioned before in hypothesizing that we would've been just as successful (if not more) if Kobe and that guy were switched. But you guys get too focused on looking at where a player is at today instead of what could have been. Too abstract of a conversation for you, I guess.

 
Of all the "switches" we could play with, Ray is my favorite.  TMac would have cost us a ton, maybe not even get out of the first round.  Vince, is garbage.  AI, big change with his size.  But Ray, man, that could be fun. 

First, Ray means no Glen Rice.  Rice was needed for his outside shot (which I will get back too momentarily)  Allen would handle that.  So maybe we keep Eddie Jones, but one of them wouldn't fit at SF, so a move still has to get done. 
Ray off Shaq might have been nice.  But title nice?  3 of em?  I don't think so.  Could Ray go down in the post?  Create his own shot?  (small lumped together portion I alluded too earlier) Board/pass/defend?  He was great long range at that time, what about from 17?  Could he finish in traffic?  And here is my biggest and best question.  Would he rip your heart out?  Would he kill you to win?  Or would he be the nice guy, deflect to Shaq, and just rain 3's?  One last thing, would he improve? 

Ray has worked on his shot forever.  Love it.  Love his shooting.  What else has he worked on, improved?  I don't see any of those things in his arsenal today, it's 10 years later.  He defends better now, I will give him credit for that.  What else? 

That shooting that we needed for Rice?  We later moved Rice (bad fit) and who got better at the 3 ball?  Kobe.  Kobe went to the 2000 All Star game, know what he was doin?  Workin on defense from the glove.  The best.  In 98 he went to the All Star game, he was askin Mike how he gets the feel of his opponent before he shoots his fadeaway.  In 99 they asked him to play SF for the first 6 games, he got double digit rebounds in all 6 playin down closer to the hoop.  He was 19.  He improved his midrange game, he's refined his post game.  He hurt his right hand and started working on a left handed shot.  Bank shot.  High post, low post, add muscle, lose muscle, he has done EVERYTHING he can think of to add to his game.  Breaks a finger, adjusts the way he shoots the ball.  Busts up thumb, another adjustment.  Hurt his shoulder, gonna be out weeks, misses one game.  Messes up ankle, his own personal staff is hired and works 24/7 to get him ready for the next game. The man, is not human. 

But you think that nice guy Ray Allen, and his pretty jumper could come in, and do all that stuff? 

Remember when Shaq missed tons of games, came back slow, fat and out of shape?  What Phil do?  He asked, no, ordered Kobe, run the show for a bit.  We need you.  13 straight 35's, 9 straight 40's was the response.  Ray Ray could do that?  After those games, Phil said ok, come back to Earth now, Shaq is ready, Kobe eased off, and they settled in. 

The other night, Kobe sucked.  Rode back on the plane with Mike Brown, and watched the entire game together, on the plane.  Brown says that Lebron never once, not one time, ever did that with him.  Bron, played in several hundred games for Mike, including some playoff games, and even Finals.  Never watched game footage on the plane.  Kobe did it, after working with Mike for a month.  6 games in.  Pretty sure that Kobe responded last night, no? 

 

He does WHATEVER it takes.  His body, his game, pain, no pain, surgery, offseason, lots of women on the side, whatever.  He plays every ounce of what he has, and has for now 16 years.  Ray couldn't do what Kobe has done man.  I'm sorry.  And I like Ray.  If I had my choice of guy to trade Kobe for in 96, and do this all over again, it would be Ray.  He's better than the other names we went off of.  But LA would have 1, maybe 2 titles out of all of it. 

He's not perfect.  No question.  You have every single right to the way you think of him.  I agree with most of it.  It would be nice if he didn't touch white girls in Colorado.  Be real nice if he said Shaq, I'm sorry brother, let's win some @#$%^&* games together.  But he doesn't.  He's wired the same way MJ was.  Good/Bad or whatever.  Bottom line, he's turned in a top 10 all time NBA Resume, kept LA relevant for over a decade and a half, and is still playing at a high level, while all his peers fall off one by one.  How we all fault him over one bad game, or a bad stretch of games, or bad shots, or whatever is beyond me.  Cuz I assure you, we could root for Ray and like him, but he would not have given us what we have been given by Kobe.  Ray could not have gotten to the first round in 06-07 with Smush, Luke and Kwame.  NO DAMN WAY.  Ray would not have demanded a trade, sure, nicer group of guys, sure.  Lot less wins too.  I know, if Ray is there, Shaq stays, he is on the team in 06-07, no Kwame, etc etc.  Shaq woulda been mid 30's, and done.  Lazy, no one to push him, 35 games off a year, etc etc.  I don't prefer that, at all. 

 

[Peep Game]

The &@^#'s going on in here

??? I'm gonna just stay with the regular NBA season thread and come
back here the next time the Lakers face the Rockets. Good lord

 

[kenji714]

Originally Posted by Cole World 22

^ Michael Jordan shot 50% for his career, went to 6 Finals, won 6 Finals, won 6 NBA Finals' MVPs.

He was the best player on the best stage, EVERY time.


Kobe Bryant went to 7 Finals, and won 2 MVPs... one of which belongs to Ron Artest.



Michael Jordan dominated the NBA Finals with career numbers of 33.5, 6 and 6 on 48% shooting.

Kobe Bryant scored 25/game in the Finals on 41% shooting. FOURTY-ONE PERCENT. LoL.


Please stop comparing those guys, you just make yourself look foolish.

MJ was lucky he didn't play any prime dynasty teams in the 90s . Bulls was the better team in all 6 finals appearances in the 90s

When 80s Celtics, LAkers, Piston was running show they always beat MJ . When those team were gone all of sudden MJ became some sort of hero ? lol

MJ had Pippen , a bunch of shooters, HOF defensive player Rodman.

MJ was lucky he played against unathletic and guards smaller than he is. John Stark, Mitch Richmond, Jeff Hornecek, Isiah Thomas, Dumar, Stockton, Gary Payton, Hershey Hawkin, etc the list go on

You're just a troll

 

[dvdjamm5150]

 

[xsalvioutlawx]

 

[kenji714]

Anyone who have DVR go back and watch 2001 Finals. When Kobe was locking down AI he frustrated the hell out of AI with all those blocks and trash talks . AI struggle to get his shot off when 6'6 fresh young legs Kobe was locking him down

Can't believe after 16 seasons people still give Kobe zero respect.

 

[darthska]

CP:

---

If I had my choice of guy to trade Kobe for in 96, and do this all over again, it would be Ray.  He's better than the other names we went off of.  But LA would have 1, maybe 2 titles out of all of it. 

He's not perfect.  No question.  You have every single right to the way you think of him.  I agree with most of it.  It would be nice if he didn't touch white girls in Colorado.  Be real nice if he said Shaq, I'm sorry brother, let's win some @#$%^&* games together.  But he doesn't.  He's wired the same way MJ was.  Good/Bad or whatever.  Bottom line, he's turned in a top 10 all time NBA Resume, kept LA relevant for over a decade and a half, and is still playing at a high level, while all his peers fall off one by one.  How we all fault him over one bad game, or a bad stretch of games, or bad shots, or whatever is beyond me.  Cuz I assure you, we could root for Ray and like him, but he would not have given us what we have been given by Kobe.  Ray could not have gotten to the first round in 06-07 with Smush, Luke and Kwame.  NO DAMN WAY.  Ray would not have demanded a trade, sure, nicer group of guys, sure.  Lot less wins too.  I know, if Ray is there, Shaq stays, he is on the team in 06-07, no Kwame, etc etc.  Shaq woulda been mid 30's, and done.  Lazy, no one to push him, 35 games off a year, etc etc.  I don't prefer that, at all. 
http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/23ska909red02/NikeTalk/?action=view&current=clapping.gif http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c...rrent=8a535f35e66dc7baa8f26af8bf867b0694c.gif

Well done, sir. I got… I got nothing.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

I wasn't aware it was still '06 with all this Kobe talk. 

 All we need now is ZoDogg and his infinite amount of sn's. 

 

[darthska]

L2B:

---

Ska is defending these obvious trolls so hard you would think they are his cousins

if it's so obvious to 99% of us what they are trying to do in this thread I don't see how it can't be noticed.
It's obvious to you 99% because 99% of you 99% deify Kobe, so if someone speaks neutral or negative about him, you lose your !+%%%$@ minds. The ONLY thing that you guys want to see from people is "OMG, Kobe is the greaterest of all time!" Anything less than that is trolling or hating.

"Ska, he's being a meanie face. He said my best friend has pooh-pooh breath. "

Oh.

L2B:

---

I have nO problem with peoPle who don't like us coming in and discussing the games or the team
"… but say something against Kobe? Shouldn't be allowed."

Oh.

 

[ag 47]

That shooting that we needed for Rice? We later moved Rice (bad fit) and who got better at the 3 ball? Kobe. Kobe went to the 2000 All Star game, know what he was doin? Workin on defense from the glove. The best. In 98 he went to the All Star game, he was askin Mike how he gets the feel of his opponent before he shoots his fadeaway. In 99 they asked him to play SF for the first 6 games, he got double digit rebounds in all 6 playin down closer to the hoop. He was 19. He improved his midrange game, he's refined his post game. He hurt his right hand and started working on a left handed shot. Bank shot. High post, low post, add muscle, lose muscle, he has done EVERYTHING he can think of to add to his game. Breaks a finger, adjusts the way he shoots the ball. Busts up thumb, another adjustment. Hurt his shoulder, gonna be out weeks, misses one game. Messes up ankle, his own personal staff is hired and works 24/7 to get him ready for the next game. The man, is not human.


Great post.

This is essentially why I stand behind Kobe. His sheer determination to improve every facet of his game. You can't help but respect it.
I give LeBron credit for developing a post-up game, but it took him what? 8 years to develop one. That's a shame looking at his physical stature.
The list goes on from there. I pick on LeBron because he's considered the best in the game by the masses right now.

 

[vanexellent]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

"… but say something against Kobe? Shouldn't be allowed."

Oh.

Only if that something against Kobe is deserving like he shoots too much.
But if a person is calling him an average shooting guard and lucky to have rings then common sense says that person is trolling.

  

 

[darthska]

It is deserving.

He has a terrible attitude, an arrogant personality, and he's a volume shooter.

'Average' is a subjective term; remember that.

If you think he's great because he scored 81, but someone else think he's average because of his persona and chucking tendencies, I'm supposed to step in and tell one of you "Nope, you're wrong. Since more people agree with the other guy, then your opinion is wrong. Say with the other guy said, and I won't ban you. But this time? *banned*"?

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaahhhhno.

 

[moneymike9]

CP1708, excellent post on Phil & Kobe/Ray comparisons. 

Saved me the time and effort to type out my thoughts 

Just one thing im gonna say about all of this...I've watched Kobe his entire career. I've learned that you need to take the good with the bad and look at the big picture. Sure he goes into stretches where you're sitting there watching "%!+ is this man doing?" as he makes decision no one will be able to comprehend (except maybe AI 

). At times this leads to frustrating Ls and horrible efficiency games. But look at the big picture...the guy has been either a #1 or #2 on 7 teams that made the Finals. If you do the math, the guy is in the Finals for almost half of his career. He's won 5. He's scored with the best of em. He's locked down people in his day and can still do sometimes. Hit (and missed) numerous big shots in big time pressure moments. Reinvented his game seemingly every year. 

True he doesn't always play "the right way"...but in my mind, he has a proven resume...there's plenty of "fails" and headscratching moments...but for better or for worse, a resume which is littered with success and something im sure a lot of NBA players past, present, and future would love to have

 

[ill steelo]

Originally Posted by KenJi714

Anyone who have DVR go back and watch 2001 Finals. When Kobe was locking down AI he frustrated the hell out of AI

Iverson was shooting 38% coming into the series.

Before the finals, he had 9 games during that playoff run where he didn't even shoot 35%.

Making Iverson miss shots was never an arduous task.

 

[MajinZuub]

I understand why people dislike Kobe but to compare him to Paul Pierce is