Arian Foster Let It Be Known That He Is A Non-Believer

[trasoul82]

 
Didn't know you could be taught to be something that you naturally are when you are born. Think about that question you just asked. Are people taught to NOT believe in something that they naturally don't believe in until they are indoctrinated. 

Let that sink on

you arent born rejecting the idea of God, you are born ignorant of it. Theism and atheism aren't natural states, they're chosen paths.

How can one possibly believe something they're ignorant of? How does their state change once asked a question and choosing to retain the same position as before?

And how is "not following a path"... a path? Paths are for those who want to safely walk in the footsteps of others. Some people aren't afraid to pull out the machete and chop through the brush. That's "making a way," not "following a path."

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

How can one possibly believe something they're ignorant of? How does their state change once asked a question and choosing to retain the same position as before?

And how is "not following a path"... a path? Paths are for those who want to safely walk in the footsteps of others. Some people aren't afraid to pull out the machete and chop through the brush. That's "making a way," not "following a path."

being ignorant of something isnt the same thing as being presented the idea and then rejecting it. one becomes an atheist when they choose to reject the idea of God just like one becomes a theist when they choose to accept God's existence.

not exactly sure what you're questioning

 

[finessence]

For devout religious people, where does nature stand to you? Once an animal, plant, or small organism dies off?

We are well aware that mammals like the great apes, felines, oceanic creatures, even trees and plants have mechanisms for consuming whater and sunlight.

Where do creatures from the animal kingdom end up, once they are deceased?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

If an elderly person who has suffered from Alzheimer's dies, do they go to heaven back to how they were before the disease took hold?

What about when an infant dies who doesn't even know of The bible, religion, God, etc, where does this infant go? They haven't had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their savior so what happens to this infant? It obviously will be going to hell since it can't accept Jesus as its savior and hasn't yet.

"God knows their heart"

 

[darthska]

^ I've heard both possibilities, that they would be hellbound because ultimately they didn't accept, and that heaven would receive them because the god concept is merciful and understands.

The fact that there isn't a definitive answer troubled me deeply.

If they're going to hell, that's just unfair, completely.

If the god concept is merciful and heaven is the result, then inconsistency abounds, because according to the myth, it drowned the entire earth, which would include toddlers, infants, and pregnant mothers.

But it set out a rainbow as a promise to never do that again?

Either it made a mistake, distorting the 'all-perfect' element... or it recognized that as unfair, distorting the 'all-merciful' element.

Not to mention the stories of instructing people like Joshua to pillage towns, including dashing babies against rocks and saving young virgins for his army to enjoy.

 

[rolaholic]

For devout religious people, where does nature stand to you? Once an animal, plant, or small organism dies off?

We are well aware that mammals like the great apes, felines, oceanic creatures, even trees and plants have mechanisms for consuming whater and sunlight.

Where do creatures from the animal kingdom end up, once they are deceased?

I've always wondered this myself. Are they not "worthy"?

 

[cragmatic]

Again, what about the person with Alzheimer's who lost their mind? Do they still go to heaven as who they were before Alzheimer's? What if in their struggle with the disease, they forget about God unwillingly? Do they go to hell?

 

[trasoul82]

How can one possibly believe something they're ignorant of? How does their state change once asked a question and choosing to retain the same position as before?


And how is "not following a path"... a path? Paths are for those who want to safely walk in the footsteps of others. Some people aren't afraid to pull out the machete and chop through the brush. That's "making a way," not "following a path."

being ignorant of something isnt the same thing as being presented the idea and then rejecting it. one becomes an atheist when they choose to reject the idea of God just like one becomes a theist when they choose to accept God's existence.


not exactly sure what you're questioning

Aaaaaahhhhh... The old "They're not atheist, just ignorant" argument. This is where the religious truly overstep their bounds. So looking at the stars and clouds and mountains and rivers and vegetation and creatures isn't enough in your eyes? One has to be specifically asked as part of this proverbial chain letter?

**Seinfeld theater gif**

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Again, what about the person with Alzheimer's who lost their mind? Do they still go to heaven as who they were before Alzheimer's? What if in their struggle with the disease, they forget about God unwillingly? Do they go to hell?

"God knows their heart"

 

[blastercombo]

Again, what about the person with Alzheimer's who lost their mind? Do they still go to heaven as who they were before Alzheimer's? What if in their struggle with the disease, they forget about God unwillingly? Do they go to hell?

Well this is kind of a linear question. I'm not a believer but I see how it can be answered several ways.

1. God forgives them and they go to heaven
2. God knows what's in their heart and they go to heaven

 

[cragmatic]

First part of the question still hasn't been answered though. Since we were talking about if people get bored in heaven or not since all they do is worship God, but in heaven that's what everyone wants to go all the time because the mind changes?

So if I live to be 90 and for 5 years of my life I don't know who I am or anything anymore, do I go to heaven as that person? Or do I go as the person I was before I lost my mind due to Alzheimer's or dementia or whatever it may be.

 

[blastercombo]

For devout religious people, where does nature stand to you? Once an animal, plant, or small organism dies off?

We are well aware that mammals like the great apes, felines, oceanic creatures, even trees and plants have mechanisms for consuming whater and sunlight.

Where do creatures from the animal kingdom end up, once they are deceased?

Another kinda simple question. As egocentric as it sounds everything on this planet is made for man and this physical for to somehow use and consume. When this world is no more that's that.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Aaaaaahhhhh... The old "They're not atheist, just ignorant" argument. This is where the religious truly overstep their bounds. So looking at the stars and clouds and mountains and rivers and vegetation and creatures isn't enough in your eyes? One has to be specifically asked as part of this proverbial chain letter?

**Seinfeld theater gif**

....?

pretty sure as humans we chose what to believe and what not to believe? i feel like you're trying to find an argument to have but i'm not even sure what you're trying to argue. I dont know a single atheist or religious person that can think for themselves that hasn't made the conscious to believe in God or not to believe in God. 

 

[blastercombo]

First part of the question still hasn't been answered though. Since we were talking about if people get bored in heaven or not since all they do is worship God, but in heaven that's what everyone wants to go all the time because the mind changes?

So if I live to be 90 and for 5 years of my life I don't know who I am or anything anymore, do I go to heaven as that person? Or do I go as the person I was before I lost my mind due to Alzheimer's or dementia or whatever it may be.

Nobody knows this. we touched on some of this yesterday

 

[cragmatic]

Nobody knows this. we touched on some of this yesterday

I guess I didn't read far enough back in the thread, will do that now!

 

[blastercombo]

....?


pretty sure as humans we chose what to believe and what not to believe? i feel like you're trying to find an argument to have but i'm not even sure what you're trying to argue. I dont know a single atheist or religious person that can think for themselves that hasn't made the conscious to believe in God or not to believe in God. 

I don't think you understand your claim. This was something talked about yesterday. The notion of God and religion is NOT one inherently known by man. That concept is PASSED DOWN unnaturally. I presented the cases of the feral children. These kids have been in isolation for years before being discovered. What idea of God did they chose? Was a "choice" made?

You saying that choice must be naturally made is wrong. The only thing we NEED to do is eat sleep and drink. The rest we develop ourselves unnaturally

 

[blastercombo]

I guess I didn't read far enough back in the thread, will do that now!

Yeah, it's not a jab at you or anything, just that some questions like thoughts there really is no answer to.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="jdfrenchbread23"]Theism and atheism aren't natural states, they're chosen paths.[/quote]'Off' is not a channel.

ESPN is a channel. On ESPN, they show sports, along with golf and NASCAR and bowling. There are advertisements for upcoming televised sports, and commercials for sports equipment and food. It's a sports channel, and there are actions that align with that identity. 'Not showing Modern Family' is not an action; 'showing Dodgers/Giants' is an action.

'Off' is not a channel. There is nothing 'Off' does. It doesn't show Modern Family, but not doing something is not an action. It doesn't show Dodgers/Giants, but again, not doing something is not an action.

Not doing something is not an action, and there are no actions 'Off' does.

Similarly, 'Not playing sports' is not considered a hobby.

'Not doing what those people are doing' is not a path.

Not praying is not an action. Eating cereal is an action.

Not going to church is not an activity. Playing basketball is an activity.

Not teaching your kids the flood story is not a lesson. Teaching how light bulbs work is a lesson.

'Actively opposing religion online' is an activity, but that's not something atheists are SUPPOSED to do; it doesn't come with calling yourself an atheist. 'Praying' is an activity that EVERY Christian is supposed to do, it's part of the Christian identity. Opposing religion is not part of atheistic identity. There are no actions that go with it.

"Oh, you're ESPN? Then show sports as you're supposed to."

"Oh, you play basketball. Then dribble as you're supposed to."

"Oh, you're a Christian. Then pray as you're supposed to."

"Oh, your atheist. Then don't go to church. Don't pray."

See? Not doing something is the only thing people attribute as an identity, and not doing is not an action.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

I don't think you understand your claim. This was something talked about yesterday. The notion of God and religion is NOT some inherently known by man. That concept is PASSED DOWN unnaturally. I presented the cases of the feral children. These kids have been in isolation for years before being discovered. What idea of God did they chose? Was a "choice" made?

You saying that choice must be naturally made is wrong. The only thing we NEED to do is eat sleep and drink. The rest we develop ourselves unnaturally

'Off' is not a channel.

ESPN is a channel. On ESPN, they show sports, along with golf and NASCAR and bowling. There are advertisements for upcoming televised sports, and commercials for sports equipment and food. It's a sports channel, and there are actions that align with that identity. 'Not showing Modern Family' is not an action; 'showing Dodgers/Giants' is an action.

'Off' is not a channel. There is nothing 'Off' does. It doesn't show Modern Family, but not doing something is not an action. It doesn't show Dodgers/Giants, but again, not doing something is not an action.

Not doing something is not an action, and there are no actions 'Off' does.

Similarly, 'Not playing sports' is not considered a hobby.

'Not doing what those people are doing' is not a path.

Not praying is not an action. Eating cereal is an action.

Not going to church is not an activity. Playing basketball is an activity.

Not teaching your kids the flood story is not a lesson. Teaching how light bulbs work is a lesson.

'Actively opposing religion online' is an activity, but that's not something atheists are SUPPOSED to do; it doesn't come with calling yourself an atheist. 'Praying' is an activity that EVERY Christian is supposed to do, it's part of the Christian identity. Opposing religion is not part of atheistic identity. There are no actions that go with it.

"Oh, your ESPN? Then show sports as you're supposed to."

"Oh, you play basketball. Then dribble as you're supposed to."

"Oh, you're a Christian. Then pray as you're supposed to."

"Oh, your atheist. Then don't go to church. Don't pray."

See? Not doing something is the only thing people attribute as an identity, and not doing is not an action.

i guess i never really though of it that way. possibly because every atheist i know is actively anti-theist if that makes sense

 

[trasoul82]

Aaaaaahhhhh... The old "They're not atheist, just ignorant" argument. This is where the religious truly overstep their bounds. So looking at the stars and clouds and mountains and rivers and vegetation and creatures isn't enough in your eyes? One has to be specifically asked as part of this proverbial chain letter?


**Seinfeld theater gif**

....?


pretty sure as humans we chose what to believe and what not to believe? i feel like you're trying to find an argument to have but i'm not even sure what you're trying to argue. I dont know a single atheist or religious person that can think for themselves that hasn't made the conscious to believe in God or not to believe in God. 

Not really looking for an argument, because there's really none to be had. I'm trying to figure out exactly how one goes from "Ignorant" to "Atheist" without being asked specifically if they believe in god. Is that even a possibility in your eyes?

My point is, the world that surrounds us is enough to make anyone generally "wonder." Everyone is presented with the same question every single day ("why am I here?"). But it appears that you believe that idea of a god is not one of the possible answers that crosses ones mind before being specifically asked. I'm genuinely trying to understand why you feel that way. If I'm misrepresenting your position in any way, let me know what I'm missing.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Not really looking for an argument, because there's really none to be had. I'm trying to figure out exactly how one goes from "Ignorant" to "Atheist" without being asked specifically if they believe in god. Is that even a possibility in your eyes?

My point is, the world that surrounds us is enough to make anyone generally "wonder." Everyone is presented with the same question every single day. But it appears that you believe that idea of a god is not one of the possibilities that crosses ones mind before being specifically asked. I'm genuinely trying to understand why you feel that way. If I'm misrepresenting your position in any way, let me know what I'm missing.

i think i see what you're saying now. i guess i see it as in this day and age youre presented with the idea of God is pretty early. so at some point in your life you decide whether you agree with it or you dont.

 

[darthska]

[quote name="jdfrenchbread23"]i guess i never really though of it that way. possibly because every atheist i know is actively anti-theist if that makes sense[/quote]Understandable, and that's exactly why I mentioned 'Actively opposing religion'. There are obviously a lot of atheists that actively oppose, but that's their personality, not a staple. It's like thinking that part of being an athlete is open showers; sure, tons of athletes do it, but that's not a prerequisite. There are tons that don't, and are absolutely incredible athletes.

There are a lot of atheists that DON'T actively oppose.

There are NO basketball players who don't dribble. That's part of it.

Although I haven't polled every religious person, I would venture to guess there are no religious people who don't pray. I'm sure there are many who feel that they don't pray enough, but they still pray. That's part of it.

There are tons of quiet atheists, and being quiet doesn't make then bad atheists; no atheists would encourage then to be more vocal because that's what true atheism is. The ones who are loud, that's who they are, not a prerequisite of atheism.

I was very vocal as a Christian. I have never been accused of being too quiet.

 

[sea manup]

i guess i never really though of it that way. possibly because every atheist i know is actively anti-theist if that makes sense

there are plenty of atheists that never talk about religion, you just never find out they are atheists

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Understandable, and that's exactly why I mentioned 'Actively opposing religion'. There are obviously a lot of atheists that actively oppose, but that's their personality, not a staple. It's like thinking that part of being an athlete is open showers; sure, tons of athletes do it, but that's not a prerequisite. There are tons that don't, and are absolutely incredible athletes.

There are a lot of atheists that DON'T actively oppose.

There are NO basketball players who don't dribble. That's part of it.

Although I haven't polled every religious person, I would venture to guess there are no religious people who don't pray. I'm sure there are many who feel that they don't pray enough, but they still pray. That's part of it.

There are tons of quiet atheists, and being quiet doesn't make then bad atheists; no atheists would encourage then to be more vocal because that's what true atheism is. The ones who are loud, that's who they are, not a prerequisite of atheism.

I was very vocal as a Christian.

I have never been accused of being too quiet.

 
there are plenty of atheists that never talk about religion, you just never find out they are atheists

but quiet atheists still dont believe in god right? thats not a choice? lol this is making my head hurt 

 but i get what you guys are saying

I guess what comes down to is where you fall. if you believe, to you an atheist is actively choosing not to believe and vice versa.

 

[sea manup]

if religion is a path then atheism is simply not taking the path

sometimes that means someone does not know of the path at all

other times it means the person knows of the path and chooses not to take it

quiet atheists do not believe in god, but because they dont talk about the subject of religion you might never realise they are atheists 

while its hard to know a christian for a extended amount of time and not know he's religious, just because the way he talks and the way he acts

its like if you see your coworker looking at nba highlights at work or talking about fantasy basketball then you will find out that he's a basketball fan

but if you work with a guy for 10 years and nothing basketball related ever comes up you're not going to think he's not a basketball fan, basketball wont even come to mind when thinking about him