ESPN's what does Kobe have to do to surpass MJ?

[bangtcg]

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP



It just boggles me why people think he practices or actually thinks about this stuff before or during the game. It was just a genuine reaction of jubilation (but I doubt that it's genuine cause everything KB does is "contrived")

yes i believe kobe is that lame to remember how kobe celebrates. its not that unrealistic. you are talking about kobe here. the same guy who thought he wasbetter than jordan when he first entered the league.

 

[night marcher01]

Originally Posted by bangtcg

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP



It just boggles me why people think he practices or actually thinks about this stuff before or during the game. It was just a genuine reaction of jubilation (but I doubt that it's genuine cause everything KB does is "contrived")

yes i believe kobe is that lame to remember how kobe celebrates. its not that unrealistic. you are talking about kobe here. the same guy who thought he was better than jordan when he first entered the league.

He did?

 

[TheGift23]

Originally Posted by nwtiger

kobe>mike
imo and nobody can change it.
i have seen mike play thousands of games as i did with kobe.
and imo i think that kobe will go down in history as the goat

 

[lbruce89]

Originally Posted by nwtiger

kobe>mike
imo and nobody can change it.
i have seen mike play thousands of games as i did with kobe.
and imo i think that kobe will go down in history as the goat

once again, kobe is not even the best %%!$!% laker of all time

 

[seatown2o6]

Doesnt matter if Kobe achieves more rings, or scoring titles than Jordan. Jordan was a global icon, dude was an influence to society. Kobe is great on thecourt, but who is he off? Thats what makes Jordan greater than kobe.

 

[holdenmichael]

3. Then, have more than ONE player to measure yourself against at your position. During MJ's time, he had to go against an HOF'er at least every other game.


Those are two separate ideas, right? You're not stating that MJ had to play a HOF guard/wing every other game, right? I ask because I only remember himplaying against two HOF guards, Dumars and Drexler.

I don't dispute the greater quality of the league, but it's not like MJ didn't get to put up numbers on smaller, slower, or less fundamentallysound players than he was.

The dude that said he coulda won 9 straight is dreaming, after the 4th or 5th year of 20 extra HARD fought playoff games, both MJ AND Pip would have broken down considerably.


Yeah, I gotta figure that Pip's back and MJ's knees would have been done for before they got to nine straight. It's not like Pip came out of the 6in 8 year run unscathed.



Like others have brought up, he'll be lucky to make it to undisputed best Laker of all time, let alone league wide GOAT. Of course, if he winds up theLakers GOAT, he'll have made it a lot closer to MJ than people thought he could have.

 

[mjshoefanatic]

I'm rollin with the 59%

kob will still considered one of the greats when all is said and done tho'.

 

[CP1708]

Magic
Nick Van Exel
Kareem
Kobe

Thas the order of the Laker all time greats. Kobe can get up to number 3 with a few more hard years and some dedication, but that's it. Line stops at 3,sorry Kobe.

 

[salahuddinxciii]

^ you really put nick above kobe? lol
kobe is the greatest laker of all time too.
he has supplied soo much for his team. as before all the laker greats had another allstar or two right by there side
kobe has pau.

 

[bangtcg]

Originally Posted by Night Marcher01

Originally Posted by bangtcg

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP



It just boggles me why people think he practices or actually thinks about this stuff before or during the game. It was just a genuine reaction of jubilation (but I doubt that it's genuine cause everything KB does is "contrived")

yes i believe kobe is that lame to remember how kobe celebrates. its not that unrealistic. you are talking about kobe here. the same guy who thought he was better than jordan when he first entered the league.

He did?

i forgot who said it but it was from an interview on espn or tnt from a close friend.

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by bangtcg

Originally Posted by Night Marcher01

Originally Posted by bangtcg

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP



It just boggles me why people think he practices or actually thinks about this stuff before or during the game. It was just a genuine reaction of jubilation (but I doubt that it's genuine cause everything KB does is "contrived")

yes i believe kobe is that lame to remember how kobe celebrates. its not that unrealistic. you are talking about kobe here. the same guy who thought he was better than jordan when he first entered the league.

He did?

i forgot who said it but it was from an interview on espn or tnt from a close friend.

I would like to see this cause I don't remember at all, sounds like more people making stuff up.

Cause everytime I can remember him being asked that question, his answers have been on the lines of something like this:

 

[dontsteponmyshoes]

Originally Posted by bangtcg

i forgot who said it but it was from an interview on espn or tnt from a close friend.

thats pretty much how stories get started about any athlete especially KOBE.

"well i dont remember when or where but i know for a fact I heard Kobe..i think, maybe it was his friend or the guy at 7-11 im not sure but yeah I heardwith my own two ears kobe say he's better than jordan will ever be."

 

[MVP]

To follow up here's an article from hoopshype: I see where it says that one of Kobe's goals is to be the greatest player ever, but nowhere @ any pointdoes it say that Kobe thinks or said he was better than MJ.


[h1]HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Roland Lazenby[/h1]
[h2]In sickness and in health[/h2]
September 16, 2008 @ 7:38 pm by Roland Lazenby · Filed under Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers,Michael Jordan

I wrote a Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan feature for Lindy's Pro Basketball 2008 Preview,the magazine that I have edited for the past 15 years. I sat down with Jordan for about 20 minutes over the offseason, which is the basis for the article,titled "In Michael's Image." I asked Jordan about Kobe Bryant and the loud criticism directed at the Lakers star for being a Jordan wanna be, animitator.

Jordan and Bryant are close, which perhaps explains why Jordan said he doesn't see what all the big fuss is about. After all, human behavior is mimetic.That's what humans do. They copy and ape another.

Jordan acknowledged Bryant is the best of a generation of players who have tried to be like Mike.

"But how many people lighted the path for me?" Jordan asked. "That's the evolution of basketball. There's no way I could have playedthe way I played if I didn't watch David Thompson and guys prior to me. There's no way Kobe could have played the way he's playedwithout watching me play. So, you know, that's the evolution of basketball. You cannot change that."

Phil Jackson and Tex Winter, who coached Jordan in Chicago and Bryant in Los Angeles, have long marveled at the alpha malenature of both players. What critics perhaps still don't yet grasp is that the issue involves personality types.

It's impossible to copy a personality type. That's a genetic trait. Copying Jordan's physical abilities would be nearly impossible to do. Then,to duplicate his uber mind-set? Such a constitution is rare indeed.

"I tend to think how very much they're alike," Winter explained to me. "They both display tremendous reaction, quickness and jumpingability. Both have a good shooting touch. Some people say Kobe is a better shooter, but Michael really developed as a shooter as he went along. I don'tknow if Kobe is a better shooter than Michael was at his best."

Forget about jumping as high or shooting as well, who could work as hard as Jordan? Who's willing to live a life of day-to-day, unbending grind? Who hasthe fierceness? The relentless desire that wears everyone else on the team out?

Jackson always pointed out that Jordan's personality was great for winning games, but it tended to grind on the teammates around him.

Jordan sees these traits in Bryant and admits to being more than a casual observer. He's fascinated by Bryant's career, even able to relive some ofhis own experience by watching Kobe. After all, he too played for Jackson in Winter's same triangle offense.

Perhaps nothing emphasizes the alpha male traits they share better than their similar reaction to injury.

Bryant, of course, was diagnosed with a torn ligament and an avulsion fracture last season. That means that the ligament pulled away from the digit and tooka chunk of bone with it.

The injury isn't so much continually painful as it is a source of numbness, unless someone strikes it during a game. Then it can become quite painful.It immediately raised questions about how the injury would affect Bryant's shooting, a question that gets bandied about on the Internet.

Bryant could have had surgery during the season, but he wanted to keep playing.

He could have had it over the summer, but he wanted to play in the Olympics.

He could have it late in the offseason, but he has a serious agenda for the Lakers for 2009. That agenda doesn't allow him to miss the early months ofthe season.

So he's going to play on.

"I have always felt that I can still focus and play at a high level even through various injuries," Bryant explained on his website. "That's really just part of the game. When the doctors told me recovery from a procedure could be12 weeks, I just decided now was not the time to have surgery. What it really came down to for me is that I just didn't want to miss any time 'punchingthe clock' for the Lakers, given all we are trying to accomplish as a team this NBA season. I am just really excited and looking forward to being therewith the guys when camp opens in a few weeks. That is a real bonding process and if I can avoid being on the sidelines for that, God willing, I will."

Old-timers will recall that just three games into his second NBA season, Jordan suffered a broken navicular tarsal bone in his left foot, an injury that hadaltered or ended the careers of several NBA players. He missed the next 64 games, then insisted on coming back to play at the end of the season, even thoughdoctors explained that he risked perhaps a 15 percent chance of ending his career.

Jordan didn't care. He was determined to play.

"That's the way Mike was," Mark Pfeil, who was then the Bulls' trainer, told me. "If he didn't think something was gonna hurthim, he'd focus past it and play. Sprains, groin pulls, muscle spasms, flu, Michael's first question always was, 'Is it gonna hurt me to play?'If I told him no, it was gone. He'd focus past it."

"I didn't want to watch my team go down the pits," Jordan explained. "I thought I was healthy enough to contribute something."

With Jordan back in the lineup, the Bulls went 6-7 over their last 13 games and despite a 30-52 finish somehow made the playoffs. In the first round of theplayoffs, the Bulls encountered the Boston Celtics, who were on their way to their 16th world championship. Boston swept Chicago, but not before Jordan set theNBA abuzz with a 63-point performance in a double-overtime loss on in Boston Garden.

"That's God disguised as Michael Jordan," Larry Bird said afterward.

Critics want to make much of Bryant's decision as some sort of PR move, or perhaps yet another attempt to mimic Jordan.

Actually, it's pretty simple. Bryant and his Lakers got their butts kicked by Boston in the league championship series. Bryant and his team lost Game 4after holding a huge lead.

Winter, a longtime Bryant mentor and observer, noted that he outcome was a huge setback for someone with the stated goal of becoming the game's greatestplayer.

For Bryant, the agenda is to get into training camp with his team to get ready to compete in 2009. He wants to win, and he can't do that sitting out inSeptember, October and November. He's got a young team that he needs to lead, to drive.

After all, that's what alpha males do.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Wow this thread is still going?

LOL @ some Kobe fanboys still trying to take the "skills" angle, so they can avoid people pointing out that MJ has achieved more.

The funny thing is that the skills angle you're trying to take is probably even more wrong than the achievement angle. When his career is done, hewon't have achieved as much as MJ, but he has a better shot at coming closer to MJ's achievements than his skills on the court. Face it, Kobe willnever be as good of a

scorer and defender as 87-88 Jordan
all-round player as 88-89 Jordan
shooter as 95-96 Jordan

You combine these and you get a player that Kobe from any year or any combination of his years like I did for MJ above is NOT EVEN CLOSE to. Kobe is not ornever will be Michael Jordan. And I don't mean it in a corny "There will never be another Jordan, there will never be another Kobe, there will neverbe another Drexler, there will never be another Reggie Miller ", etc. way. No, he is not as good as Jordan.

 

[shoeking2101]

As far as basketball players go, michael jordan is better than kobe bryant. Contrary to what people say, imo mike shot better, was far more efficient(less 3ptfga's ftw) had superior athletic ability, and actually played defense, something that kobe is overrated at. He roams a lot, and gets steals that way whilemj was a crackdown defender. But nobody can deny that they are in deed very similar.

That being said, this dude kobe bryant is a marvel in his own right. 81? 62 in 3? 26 games of 40 or more? 9 straight of 40 or more? 4 straight of 50 or more?This guy is phenomonal. Besides defense (which he really is overrated at...seriously) what can't this guy do? He can do it all very good. If you watch kobeclosely and your an advid kobe observer, you will notice that he's been on the decline since 05-06, and yet he's still tossing in 40 50 60 points. Justa testament to how good this dude really is.

Jordan and Bryant's biggest trait that they share imo is they're fear of failure. A couple years back I was up at LMU, and kobe's camp happened tobe there and the campers were at lunch. The gym was cleared except for him, who was just getting finished with a serious workout with his trainer. Long storyshort, he was sitting down, and I went up to him, the trainer was being a little b*&$@ but kobe was cool, he let me talk to him and he told me he goesthrough that process every game. I said why and he said because I'm scared to fail. I laughed, he said seriously, I want to be successful every time I playand I could go on with that convo but basically that was that.

Wit dude's work ethic, no wonder he can be compared to mike.

 

[pacmagic2002]

Originally Posted by Pill Clinton

I think people mistake ACCOMPLISHMENTS with pure SKILL.

MJ has accomplished much more than Kobe has, not arguing that.
But its like a rapper who sells millions and millions of records, does that make him the greatest rapper of all time? No, it doesn't.

Kobe Bryant has assets to his game that are BETTER than Michael Jordans...Mike might have rings, but we're talking about skill here. Kobe > Michael Jordan.


Better shooter, better scorer, better footwork, better ball-handling, etc.

I'm going to get a million stone faces, but i don't care. I'm not just a biased Laker/Kobe fan either. This is coming from a basketball fan. When it is all said and done, kobe bryant will be the greatest basketball player of all time.


Kobe > MJ

*puts on flame suit*

Beyond his shoes....im not a jordan fan by any means........BUT, this is the dumbest thing iv ever heard of in my life. Laker fans and delusionalif they believe this

 

[gameover2]

Originally Posted by nwtiger

kobe>mike
imo and nobody can change it.
i have seen mike play thousands of games as i did with kobe.
and imo i think that kobe will go down in history as the goat

 

[jsindaa]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Wow this thread is still going?

LOL @ some Kobe fanboys still trying to take the "skills" angle, so they can avoid people pointing out that MJ has achieved more.

The funny thing is that the skills angle you're trying to take is probably even more wrong than the achievement angle. When his career is done, he won't have achieved as much as MJ, but he has a better shot at coming closer to MJ's achievements than his skills on the court. Face it, Kobe will never be as good of a

scorer and defender as 87-88 Jordan
all-round player as 88-89 Jordan
shooter as 95-96 Jordan

You combine these and you get a player that Kobe from any year or any combination of his years like I did for MJ above is NOT EVEN CLOSE to. Kobe is not or never will be Michael Jordan. And I don't mean it in a corny "There will never be another Jordan, there will never be another Kobe, there will never be another Drexler, there will never be another Reggie Miller ", etc. way. No, he is not as good as Jordan.

Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.

05-06 season was just as good as 87-88 season scoring wise...actually you could argue off strictly stats Kobe had a better season. I don't even know WHYyou used this season for Jordan though when clearly the year before he averaged 37. Which still would be close for Kobe...and he played in an era whereit's much tougher to drive, however that's neither here nor there.

02-03 season is close as an overall season to Jordan's 88-89. Especially when you consider Shaq was on that team averaging 28 and 10. That same season isvery close shooting also. Not a season that definitively says "Kobe could NEVER do this". And Kobe has only shot under 200 3 pt attempts 4 times inhis career...Jordan has shot over 200 the same amount of times. Kobe shot under 33% from 3 5 times...Jordan shot over...5 times....notice a trend yet? Alsosomething to note...I have yet to interject my opinion.

 

[thekillerj23]

Originally Posted by southzeztpdot

MJ was human. Someone can surpass him. If you think its impossible than you are a MJ stan and need to fall back. Dude wasnt even that good of a person in general from what Ive read.

What does him being a horrid human being do with his basketball skill??? not like Kobe is the nicest guy out there
"Seriously, that's my thing man, I asked her if I could C$M on her face, she said no, so I didn't".

-Kobe Bryant- .....................talk about a good person

 

[doyung9]

Originally Posted by chillainvillain

You think Kobe sits at home, watches Jordan's celebration and plans to copy it the night he wins the finals? I highly doubt Kobe even had that in his mind.

Yup. And you want to know why?

Because I would have.

I'm not a Kobe fan by any means, but just with all the constant, non-stop debate of Michael vs. Kobe, I've tried to cover every single angle of thisargument and I thought about it.

Kobe was... 18 or so when he entered the league right? And Mike had 4 rings, and during Kobe's senior year, he witnessed, like the rest of us, what will godown as the best team performance/evolution of a great player ever.

Kobe was a senior in high school during 1995-1996. He watched those Bulls. He saw 'THAT' Michael Jordan. And he also was old enough to see the first 3pear. Do you really think the thought of wanting to do those things, to win that way, to be that dominant NEVER crossed his mind?

I'm not saying he studies MJ's every mannerism and movement... but the dude knows about the fist pump, just like we all do. It's probably justbecome ingrained in him.

Hell, for the most part, I'd safely say 75% of us wanted to be MJ our entire lives... Apparently Kobe did, too.

I'm not knocking him for the stuff. Sure, it's kind of corn ball at times, with the fist pump and all, and I do find his little jump in his celebrationIRONICALLY and eerily similar... but so what if he did it?

It's our behavior to imitate those we look up to. And if you think Kobe didn't look up to MJ, then you're REALLLY delusional.

 

[no vert]

Originally Posted by zube42

Nobody is going to surpass Jordan, it just won't happen. Even if it did I don't thing people would accept it.

Word. Let's say kobe wins four more rings. The debate would be, he played in more finals than Jordan. No one will or can win with the Jordan comparsions.

 

[darthska]

JsindaA:

---

Xtapolapacetl:

---

Wow this thread is still going?

LOL @ some Kobe fanboys still trying to take the "skills" angle, so they can avoid people pointing out that MJ has achieved more.

The funny thing is that the skills angle you're trying to take is probably even more wrong than the achievement angle. When his career is done, he won't have achieved as much as MJ, but he has a better shot at coming closer to MJ's achievements than his skills on the court. Face it, Kobe will never be as good of a

scorer and defender as 87-88 Jordan
all-round player as 88-89 Jordan
shooter as 95-96 Jordan

You combine these and you get a player that Kobe from any year or any combination of his years like I did for MJ above is NOT EVEN CLOSE to. Kobe is not or never will be Michael Jordan. And I don't mean it in a corny "There will never be another Jordan, there will never be another Kobe, there will never be another Drexler, there will never be another Reggie Miller ", etc. way. No, he is not as good as Jordan.
Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.
One more time:

JsindaA:

---

Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.
And for the road:

JsindaA:

---

Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.
That' the main reason why these debates go south so often, people argue their opinion as stone cold fact when it's really an OPINION.'I think Jordan is better than opinion' = OPINION.

"No, ska, that's a fact! Jordan is better than Kobe. He has never lost in the Finals, he... blah, blah, blah..."

It's an opinion.

Hell, if someone thinks that Mike Penberthy is better than Jordan, right on, man.

That's their opinion. Now if they want to say Penberthy has a better Finals record than Jordan, well, that's not an opinion.

As long as everyone approaches these debates with the understanding that their opinion is simply that, and they maintain that understanding throughout thedebate, then everything's fine.

 

[no vert]

Originally Posted by southzeztpdot

MJ was human. Someone can surpass him. If you think its impossible than you are a MJ stan and need to fall back. Dude wasnt even that good of a person in general from what Ive read.

Wrong Jordan was and is God in Nikes. That's the problem. My bad. The problem is the media hype machine. That all of us has succumbed to. If you don'tbelive, this thread would not exist.

 

[jsindaa]

Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

JsindaA:

---

Xtapolapacetl:

---

Wow this thread is still going?

LOL @ some Kobe fanboys still trying to take the "skills" angle, so they can avoid people pointing out that MJ has achieved more.

The funny thing is that the skills angle you're trying to take is probably even more wrong than the achievement angle. When his career is done, he won't have achieved as much as MJ, but he has a better shot at coming closer to MJ's achievements than his skills on the court. Face it, Kobe will never be as good of a

scorer and defender as 87-88 Jordan
all-round player as 88-89 Jordan
shooter as 95-96 Jordan

You combine these and you get a player that Kobe from any year or any combination of his years like I did for MJ above is NOT EVEN CLOSE to. Kobe is not or never will be Michael Jordan. And I don't mean it in a corny "There will never be another Jordan, there will never be another Kobe, there will never be another Drexler, there will never be another Reggie Miller ", etc. way. No, he is not as good as Jordan.

Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.
One more time:

JsindaA:

---

Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.
And for the road:

JsindaA:

---

Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.
That' the main reason why these debates go south so often, people argue their opinion as stone cold fact when it's really an OPINION. 'I think Jordan is better than opinion' = OPINION.

"No, ska, that's a fact! Jordan is better than Kobe. He has never lost in the Finals, he... blah, blah, blah..."

It's an opinion.

Hell, if someone thinks that Mike Penberthy is better than Jordan, right on, man.

That's their opinion. Now if they want to say Penberthy has a better Finals record than Jordan, well, that's not an opinion.

As long as everyone approaches these debates with the understanding that their opinion is simply that, and they maintain that understanding throughout the debate, then everything's fine.


Uh...you confuse me at times Ska but I'm ASSUMING you were agreeing with my post...or at least the part you multi quoted

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by JsindaA

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Wow this thread is still going?




LOL @ some Kobe fanboys still trying to take the "skills" angle, so they can avoid people pointing out that MJ has achieved more.




The funny thing is that the skills angle you're trying to take is probably even more wrong than the achievement angle. When his career is done, he
won't have achieved as much as MJ, but he has a better shot at coming closer to MJ's achievements than his skills on the court. Face it, Kobe will
never be as good of a




scorer and defender as 87-88 Jordan


all-round player as 88-89 Jordan


shooter as 95-96 Jordan




You combine these and you get a player that Kobe from any year or any combination of his years like I did for MJ above is NOT EVEN CLOSE to. Kobe is not or
never will be Michael Jordan. And I don't mean it in a corny "There will never be another Jordan, there will never be another Kobe, there will never
be another Drexler, there will never be another Reggie Miller ", etc. way. No, he is not as good as Jordan.

Your opinion would be fine if you wouldn't try to pass it off as fact.

05-06 season was just as good as 87-88 season scoring wise...actually you could argue off strictly stats Kobe had a better season. I don't even know WHY you used this season for Jordan though when clearly the year before he averaged 37. Which still would be close for Kobe...and he played in an era where it's much tougher to drive, however that's neither here nor there.

02-03 season is close as an overall season to Jordan's 88-89. Especially when you consider Shaq was on that team averaging 28 and 10. That same season is very close shooting also. Not a season that definitively says "Kobe could NEVER do this". And Kobe has only shot under 200 3 pt attempts 4 times in his career...Jordan has shot over 200 the same amount of times. Kobe shot under 33% from 3 5 times...Jordan shot over...5 times....notice a trend yet? Also something to note...I have yet to interject my opinion.

I used the 87-88 season because MJ averaged 35 on 24 shots and 54% shooting. As opposed to 86-87 (which was also a better scoring season than Kobe's 05-06when he averaged 37 on 28 shots and 48% shooting). Anyway, 35 on 24 shots and 54% shooting >>> 35 on 27 shots and 45% shooting that Kobe had in 05-06.

Kobe's 02-03 is not even close to MJ's 88-89. MJ had 15 triple-doubles that year, including a stretch where he had 10 TDs in 11 games, when he wasasked to play the point. Compared to Kobe's 5 triple-doubles in 02-03 and 1.1 rebound and 2.1 assists less average. He didn't play with Shaq a coupleof years later and he never came close to averaging 8 and 8. I'm sorry, but if a 6.9 rebound and 5.9 assist average is the best example of Kobe'sall-round game, then it simply isn't good enough. For example, Steve Francis averaged 7.0 rebounds and 6.4 assists one year and noone even remembers that.

You can try to argue that Kobe averaged more three-point attempts and that altered his shooting percentages are lower because of that, but this doesn'thold water. In 89-90 MJ averaged 3 3-point attempts per game and his FG% was still 53%. Kobe had six (I'll just say four, because I won't count hisfirst two seasons because he was out of high-school) seasons where he averaged less than 3 3-point attempts per game, and his overall FG% never came close to53%. Kobe is yet to have a FG% that is above .470. MJ had 10 seasons where his FG% was higher than that.

Outside shooting is the only SKILL area where you can claim that Kobe was superior to MJ. Not that it was that hard to be a better outside shooter than MJ,word to Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Dale Ellis, Glen Rice, etc..